Another unconditional parenting question!

[Simic]

This one is addressed to Tillymama and all the other people out there interested in unconditional parenting! What do you do with the getting ready when child just wants to stay at home and play but you have GOT to be off by a particular time? Like getting to preschool in the morning, every morning, when I've got to be at work by 9.
I know that Alfie Kohn sees it as really important to try to reduce the amount of time pressure. I see it like this too - but it's just not really feasible with my work start.
Secondly Alfie Kohn suggests discussing the problem with the child to find a solution together. The problem that I've encountered with that is the phenomenon "Yes, I'll do that tomorrow morning and every morning" only means "I love you, Mum and Dad, and I want to please you". A five year old can't actually follow the logic of "it's my solution to a problem and I want to make it work - even in the morning when I really just want to play".
Any ideas???

hope your post made absolute sense!

I guess the nice way or the nasty way is shorthand for us. In that we have had hundreds of discussions about what happens in these situations and some outcomes are nice in that everyone comes out of it feeling good about how they behaved and some are nasty because anyone being sad is, well, unpleasant for at least one of us. It is certainly not intended to be threatening and I don't think my child finds it threatening. It is descriptive of the potential scenario.

Fatty Arbuckel and Hope and Simic are right, IMO. Unconditional parenting has very little to do with negotiating.

I think there are two important things:

1. Explaining isn't the same thing as negotiating. DD (3) is perfectly capable of understanding why she has to be at nursery on time - nursery have said everyone needs to be on time because coming late means the teachers are always having to come and open the door etc. instead of playing with the children.

1. Explaining is better not done in the heat of the moment. But it definitely pays off IMO to explain as much as you can at times when you're not stressed, because it then makes it that much easier to e.g. leave home with the minimum of fuss when you are pushed for time.

If explaining looks like negotiating, I think it's because it's being done at the wrong time.

That said, some frogmarching takes place with us.

minipie - re. what you do when they're too young (e.g. in the street) - you just do what you can, I reckon. In other words - you hold on to them! but also teach them the word dangerous, then as soon as you can you also start explaining what you can in terms that they understand.The way I see it, I have to explain to DD what cars can do in a way that she understands, as early as possible, because that way I reduce the risk of her having an accident. I hold on to her too, near busy roads, but I wouldn't want to rely on that.

I am not an UP person - I would like to be but its just not in my nature - there is a fair amount of shouting in my house and frogmarching but also some empathising and acknowledging of feelings when my patience is up to it - so normal parenting then.

However no matter what I think about styles of parenting I think the UP parents have been really unjustifiably attacked on this thread - some people have really taken the piss and made no real attempt to engage with the issues or even really any valid points at all.

omnishambles - fair amount of shouting here as well. I'm not the world's most patient person, and I'm pretty strict on a lot of things. I still think the principles of UP are good ones, though. At the end of the day, it's a theory of psychology - about what approach is most effective in helping children to grow up independent, considerate etc., and I reckon UP has more going for it than other e.g. behaviourist approaches.

Thank you so much everyone for all your suggestions!
I think it's so great that after a wobbly bit in the beginning, the thread HAS developed into a serious, respectful discussion. Thanks for all of you keeping it going all along! It's so great to hear how other people do things/see things and to get real support.
By the way, I've never had a virtual hug before - they're brill! Thanks!

HopeForTheJingleBells: we're in Berlin, where are you?

I suppose I just don't like labelling. Someone takes a commonsense idea, gives it a label, writes a book and makes a lot of money from something lots of people do anyway! (I expect I am just jealous of the making money bit!!)

I think you're absolutely right, Piscesmoon. I think it's unwise to read a book and decide that's your bible or your cooking recipe. But I don't think anyone on here is doing that. It's clear from the discussion that everyone thinks carefully about how they are interacting with their kids - whatever conclusion they come to. And as I think you said before, it has to depend completely on the individual child and parent - and that seems to be what people are doing.
In fact it's a major criticism of "Unconditional Parenting" the book, that it is very vague - proposing a general approach but nothing more. But maybe that's not a bad thing. I feel I need ideas, I really like not to feel alone (which is why these threads are a lifeline for me) but the rest of it just has to be me, my husband and my kids doing our best, minute by minute.
Thanks Moonfacemamaaargh for your response to what I wrote about how I came to UP ... as I say, it doesn't happen to me often that people understand where I'm coming from! :)

I think that books are a great idea-if people use them as a resource and take the bits that suit them and their DCs and don't assume that the author is the authority. It is just as helpful on here, for people to share their experiences.

As far as childhood experience is concerned - I remember VERY clearly the things that drove me mad, one of them being "because I say so." Not being given answers to perfectly reasonable questions like "Why do I have to go to bed at 6.30?" My feelings not counting. Being sent to my room an awful lot for having rages (because my feelings didn't count and things weren't explained) and my parents were lovely people who did their best, never hit us etc etc.

I swore I would never treat my dc like that, and I don't. We talk, explain, discuss and reach agreement and I respect their feelings even if they can't be incorporated (which is hte same for all of us sometimes).

Has your dd ever chosen the nasty way?

No! But she has experienced the nasty way on occasion when I've been fed up and failed to bother to spell it out for her, so she does know what she's choosing between. I do see your point about labelling. I can't remember if I started off saying nice and nasty or if it just kind of morphed into that as shorthand once we both knew what we were talking about. I suspect the latter.

For me it was like a eureka experience realising that I could remember so many of my experiences as a child and if I thought about those really hard and honestly, how I felt - what worked with me and what didn't, I could sort of make up my own parenting book about how I want to parent.
Of course, my children are not me so my "own book" can't be a cooking recipe either (that's part of the reason why I need to post on here!). But, the realisation that I had so much insight at my finger tips by thinking really in depth about how I reacted to things was really amazing for me.
I then stumbled upon the problem: didn't I feel all punishment as my parents not approving of ME (not just my behaviour)???. I knew that my parents didn't mean it like that, so I had always just ignored how I had felt. But once I really started thinking back, it became clearer and clearer to me that I really had felt like that. A lot. But, I couldn't accept that punishment should be wrong or avoided. So I started looking around in case anyone had ever thought about this problem before and so came across Alfie Kohn.

Simic - I didn't think about it in terms of not approving of me (but i know what you mean), but I did feel "unknown" and I also think that all punishment does is create anger and rage rather than address the problem and elicit a genuine understanding of why the behaviour was wrong.

And Horton, I do similar, I think it's fine.

Thanks, Hully. That's nice to know.

My mum used to label these the 'easy' way or the 'hard' way, the easy way being putting on your coat yourself and going out calmly, the hard way having it done for you and everyone getting cross. Not rocket science, quite easy for a small child to understand.

I am in love with LeQueen

Easy and hard is a good way of describing it. I like that.

I think Alfie Kohn chose a bit of an unfortunate title. I can completely see why he called it "Unconditional parenting", but it's very open to casual misinterpretation. The Czech equivalent - i.e. based on the same school of thought - is called "Respect and be respected", which I like.

"Punished by Rewards" is a great title, though.

vesela you make some good points there!