Another unconditional parenting question!

[Simic]

This one is addressed to Tillymama and all the other people out there interested in unconditional parenting! What do you do with the getting ready when child just wants to stay at home and play but you have GOT to be off by a particular time? Like getting to preschool in the morning, every morning, when I've got to be at work by 9.
I know that Alfie Kohn sees it as really important to try to reduce the amount of time pressure. I see it like this too - but it's just not really feasible with my work start.
Secondly Alfie Kohn suggests discussing the problem with the child to find a solution together. The problem that I've encountered with that is the phenomenon "Yes, I'll do that tomorrow morning and every morning" only means "I love you, Mum and Dad, and I want to please you". A five year old can't actually follow the logic of "it's my solution to a problem and I want to make it work - even in the morning when I really just want to play".
Any ideas???

Wow Lequeen, your kids follow your every word like robots, you must be proud. I wonder, what will happen when you are not there to dictate....

Thank you everythingiseverythng for the example. I'm starting to get it a bit now. [dim emoticon]

However, in terms of "The only UP difference would be that I would chat to him about it beforehand so he had an idea of what to expect, and would acknowledge his feelings about it."

Surely, most parents would?

Oh, you misunderstaood me. I never negotiate, just respect. I can acknowledge their wants and needs without pandering to them.

Well of course its common sense to explain what is going to happen at the dentist to your kids (for example), that its a bit worrying, but the dentist is a nice man, and the alternative is toothache etc. But I wouldn't expect a tiny child to understand that, while a 7 year old might be perfectly capable. But I wouldn't give a seven year old a choice about it, it would be presented as a neccessity that we all have to do. In fact I was quite surprised when I took my kid to the dentist for the first time. Having patiently explained that it might be a bit horrible people poking around in his mouth etc, he took it completely in his stride, and when he subsequently needed a filling he said it was a doddle. I do have a great dentist though.

I can't imagine sitting around reasoning with a toddler thogh, surely that way madness lies? I mean I've never met a toddler capable of much reasoning! My kid is no robot, but he does know I'm the boss, and he is very good at associating his behaviour with the results. Good behavious gets praise, bad behaviour gets a discussion followed by consequences. But to be honest he's a very good kid, and knowing we would be a bit cross about something is so far enough of a deterrent. He's nine though, I wouldn't expect that from a todler.

I'm not really that familiar with the concepts of unconditional parenting, I've bought a few parenting books but never found one that really works for me.

My two yr old is extremely strong-willed, she's starting to calm down now. With relation to the opinion on dentists etc. My daughter took one look at our dentist and burst out crying so I tried to cheer her up but he wasn't that bothered, just said, 'no point in forcing her', had a little play with the mirror and give her some stickers and advised to bring her back in six months. I felt a bit disappointed as I really wanted to know how her teeth were doing. But what can you do? You cannot physically restrain them on the dentists chair and I don't believe in shouting or getting cross as in my daughters reaction, she was just scared of a new situation, not being naughty.

At the height of her tantrums, we went on holiday to visit friends in Austria, involving two flights each way. It was a total nightmare, she would not wear her seatbelt for taking off or landing. A few of the air hostesses were a bit arsy about this, they could clearly see we were struggling with her, however a lovely male hostess came over and just said 'I think she'll do what she wants to do' and give her some sweets. Left us to it, and they continued with their take-off procedure.

So finally, negotiation, reprimanding, being tough, being soft... it really depends on what sort of child you have and what stage of development they are going through. Now my daughter seems to be turning a corner and is emerging into a little darling with an amazing sense of humour, not always perfectly behaved but hey-ho. And I'm not that fussed about being the 'boss' either, as long as I guide her in the (sort-of) right direction.

Speaking of drugs, one of the theories behind raising children who are intrinsically motivated is that when they are subject to peer pressure and away from parental supervision, they will be more likely to weigh the pros and cons of what other people are encouraging them to do. Eg experimenting with drugs.

Rather than just doing things because their peers said so.

To be fair there is no point arguing about UP unless you have read the book! The points raised on this thread aren't critcisms of UP just critcisms of a misguided idea of what UP is.

With greatest respect to posters it's not going to be a useful discussion IMO.

Othersideofthechannel does make an excellent point about the ability of the child not to be easily led by peers.

The concern that the UP child has problems with other adults is unfounded. These kids don't expect to negotiate with teachers etc.

The main problems Regarding adults are for the parents with othr adults who are family and friends and who don't see you punish your child for poor behaviour and therefore assume that you are not dealing with this behaviour properly. It's a comprehension gap, and as we see on this thread it's not possible to explain UP quickly and easily.

UP isn't about just letting the DC do what they want and adults having to put themselves out to accommodate it!
You live together as a family and it is give and take from all. You can acknowledge that your DC wants to stay and play, you can even commiserate and say that you would too, but unfortunately........because......
They have to realise that somethings are not negotiable and it is a waste of time arguing about routine.I can't see the point, when teeth have to be cleaned, of getting into the same pointless argument-just make it routine.

So, anyway, back to the original question, which was suggestions to help with getting up and out in the morning. (Should admit, I don't know much about UP - oops - but from what I've read here it sounds, properly understood, like sound common sense.)

My 5yo DD likes getting up if she can do it all with me. So she finds her clothes and brings them into my room and gets dressed at the same time as me. Often it's a race, but not always. On the occasions she dawdles too much, I'm already dressed and she gets upset. But that hasn't happened for ages now - guess she's learnt the natural consequence!

My 3yo DS otoh, sometimes gets partly dressed at the front door, because if I get him dressed against his will he will undress himself again (bet LeQueen's DCs never did that, I'm probably doing something wrong ), so I don't see the point of the confrontation. At the door, he suddenly realises why it's important and it's done with speed, nay, a touch of desperation! Typical 3yo - everything done on a need-to-know basis!

Should maybe add that as we don't have a battle earlier, he doesn't get the impression that he's in charge and negotiating with adults. Although he might think his mother's a tad forgetful: "But Mummy! I'm not dressed yet!" (as I walk out of door) :)

Rev084, I've had nightmare flights with 2yos, a number of times. Funny, though, I'd say "DC hated wearing his/her seatbelt" rather than "refused to wear" it... That'd be one of my non-negotiables.

(Small aside:) Next time, get DC to take socks and shoes off. Still a new skill at that age, so often a good distraction. Then whip their sock away and transform it into a glove puppet that want to eat their nose. DC should be giggling in no time. And if all else fails, where were your sweets?!

Thanks to those who gave me their tips of how they get up and ready in the morning. Great ideas there which we'll definitely try.
I think that FattyArbuckel hit the nail on the head saying that a lot of arguments that go on when you mention unconditional parenting are due to a miscomprehension of what it is and what someone is actually trying to do.
Moreover, everyone raises their children differently, all children are different and actually different children living in different places and situations NEED different skills for interacting with different social norms and expectations.
I was brought up to obey unquestioningly. I was brought up to be VERY respectful of adults and authority. Now I find that I let figures of authority determine my life because I don't dare (wouldn't even consider) standing up to them. I find it hard to realise that my needs have any importance in comparison to what eg. a boss wants from me. I was never what any other adult would consider a spoilt brat, I rarely spoke when other adults were present. I did everything which adults desired of me in order to "fit in" and get on with everyone.

But I don't fit in. I live in Germany where people are expected to state openly their opinions and feelings. People have strong opinions and tell those to people's faces all the time. They fight for what they want/need. I annoy people intensely because they feel that by my being - to my mind - polite and considerate, I am not being clear and they never know what I am thinking. I find it hard to "play by their rules" and so have trouble at work and in social situations. The only way I can see of preparing my children for life here is to concentrate on self-esteem and make them able to think for themselves to be able to analyse social situations for themselves so that they can CHOOSE the best behaviour to use in a given situation. This is a tall order as we are all preprogrammed to a huge extent by what we experience as children. But I think that my children NEED as much as possible practice in finding their way through situations - not following set protocols (which was more a feature of my interactions in England where "How are you?" didn't necessarily mean more than "hello!").
A lot of people refer to "negotiating" with children. I think this is a prime example of a complete misunderstanding of UP. It is not a case of two parties who have to negotiate to make a deal - we're not two lawyers or two corporations. We have every day problems to solve and I'd like my children to practice solving them with me, with me taking the responsibility.

Sorry, that was more information than any of you wanted! :)

I just wanted to make clear: I wasn't trying to say that UP is only relevant for English people living in Germany :)
It's just that we never know what interactions we are preparing our children for. My parents prepared me perfectly for interactions to go smoothly with SOME adults in a certain situation.
As people have said before here, children naturally adapt their behaviour to different situations ... I think it's important that they keep that skill. Furthermore "adaption to" shouldn't mean always being "easy" for the people around them. A lot of people seem worried about parents "pandering" to their children. But, similarly my aim can't be to get them to pander to me (or to the friends with the drugs or the nice man in the car who wants to show them the puppies). We need them to think hard and think for themselves.

I meant (Small aside: )

I agree. I brought up my dc with UP without knowing it was called that. It is just about respect and treating them as humans. It doesn't mean lying on the floor and inviting them to walk on you. It gets them to think and question and reason things through - but obviously not at two when they have to be wrestled into their buggy/airplane seatbelt like every other kid...

Okay - I'm confused now - I treat my children as humans; even so, they sometimes still just have to do things 'because I say so!'

There is no way in the world that I would have let a two year old refuse to wear a seatbelt on a plane - tantrum or not.

And I have never had battles at bedtime either, or a power struggle. Bedtime = bedtime.

There are times that adults have to behave like the adult-they simply have more life experience than a 2 yr old! They wear a seat belt-the end.

"The only UP difference would be that I would chat to him about it beforehand so he had an idea of what to expect, and would acknowledge his feelings about it. So, he wouldn't be doing it 'because I said so'. And I wouldn't be saying he was silly, telling him terrible things were going to happen (though I might say his teeth would fall out!), removing toys etc etc."

How the hell do you think the rest of us parent? You must have had some pretty bad experiences in your own childhood.