Another unconditional parenting question!

[Simic]

This one is addressed to Tillymama and all the other people out there interested in unconditional parenting! What do you do with the getting ready when child just wants to stay at home and play but you have GOT to be off by a particular time? Like getting to preschool in the morning, every morning, when I've got to be at work by 9.
I know that Alfie Kohn sees it as really important to try to reduce the amount of time pressure. I see it like this too - but it's just not really feasible with my work start.
Secondly Alfie Kohn suggests discussing the problem with the child to find a solution together. The problem that I've encountered with that is the phenomenon "Yes, I'll do that tomorrow morning and every morning" only means "I love you, Mum and Dad, and I want to please you". A five year old can't actually follow the logic of "it's my solution to a problem and I want to make it work - even in the morning when I really just want to play".
Any ideas???

Oh, and my suggestion for the OP would be to not have any toys out in the morning. My children take forever to get ready if they watch TV in the morning, so the TV is not switched on.

(And, fyi, I do not threaten or punish them if they ask to watch, I only have to tell them that if they watch TV they will probably be late for school. It's not UP, it's just common sense.)

I think that perhaps those who call it UP had a terrible childhood-I'm with you Gubbins and just go for common sense.

peoples ideas of common sense are very different though arent they? i mean i think its common sense to NOT discuss everything with dd.... if i did then nothing would get done on time...
its common sense that she learns to do as i say, take for example she is having a tantrum suddenly in the middle of a busy road because she doesn't want to hold my hand.... her life would be in danger if she didn't do as i said and quickly!
i see it as unsafe if my dd doesn't do as i say very quickly, there are plenty of other things we discuss very often, like her behaviour but we discuss these things while she and i are both in a calm mood

she does do as i say and we always discuss this afterwards so she understands the importance of things... we even manage to discuss things at the time they are happening because she is not having a tantrum about putting on a coat/seatbelt/shoes so we are calm and i can say 'dd if you don't wear a seatbelt you would be hurt if we had a crash'

Feckin hell letting your child know you are both in charge - in my house I AM IN CHARGE - that way things get done, kids get to school and I get to work.

oooh madame said it in a much shorter, punchier sort of way than i did

MadfameCastafiore "Feckin hell letting your child know you are both in charge - in my house I AM IN CHARGE"

Parents are always in charge, UP doesn't say otherwise. It is more about seeing things from your child's pov, validating their experiences of the world and affording them respect. Clearly many people embrace at least some aspects of UP without terming it UP.

UP is not a reward and punishment model whereas I think the majority of parents do use reward and punishment quite extensively. If you really want to argue against UP though you need to find out what it is!!!

Surely all parents will prefer reasoning, explaining and empathising - if and when there is time, and if and when it is effective. That is just normal parenting, nothing unusual, I'd have thought.

The question is, what do you do when there isn't time to reason/explain/empathise - like when the child is running down the street at full pelt?

And what do you do when reasoning doesn't work - like when they are 2 years old and don't understand that cars are dangerous and will hurt them, however much you explain?

Or when you explain why they need to go to bed, and they just refuse anyway?

There must come a point when you have to say "No time to talk now, just do it" or "I've already explained why, now just do it." You can't keep empathising forever while they carry on torturing the cat (or whatever).

can i redirect the questions asked to lequeen towards a UP parent please...

"May I ask, LeQueen, what you would do if you say to your small child 'Time to go' and they reply. 'I don't want to, I'm busy'."

"Also, how would you like your children to respond if you are in the middle of something and they need to wait before you can do something with/for them?"

what would a UP parent do?

That is where it is called common sense minipie. Common sense isn't the UP father (mentioned on here) who asked his 2 yr old if they thought throwing a stone in a crowded paddling pool was a good idea! (The 2 yr old thought it was and hit another DC on the head).

Exactly MrsRhett and piscesmoon.

All parents (other than the Victorian-age ones) adopt the UP approach up to a point. It's common sense.

The question is what happens in situations where it isn't quick enough, or when it doesn't work.

ime reasoning with a child hardly ever works and is very exasperating.

a few of my friends have dc that need to be reasoned with all the time and its so annoying as it wastes time... i've lost count of the times i've been waiting on people who are 'trying to get' their child to do something whilst dd and i are stood there patiently waiting.....

ok, it works in the end but to what effect? it may have taken half an hour or so but the child still obviously doesnt understand time frames so wtf?

My ha'porth: for some reason I have a good memory of being tiny. I always used to walk as SLOWLY as possible to nursery because my mother used to say to me that if I was late they wouldn't let me in. To me, that was a goal, and not an incentive to be quick. You said early on that you explained to your child that they have to be quick "so you can get to work", he/she might have deduced that if he/she is slow then you MIGHT NOT GO That might seem like a good thing. I was always so disappointed and surprised to be allowed in to nursery every day despite being as slow as possible.

MrsRhettButler, there isn't a single approach but I think it would most likely one or more of the following: empathy, reasoning, waiting the the child to be ready (because you would have built time into your schedule for this) and would exclude 'Death Stares'.

I would like my children to be able to wait until I have finished without badgering me. So I try to model this to my children.

thank you for answering otherside

i fear i am too impatient for UP parenting then, and much too unorganized to build time into my schedule!

horses for courses i guess :)

To be honest, I struggle with being impatient.

Today because of this thread, I have been secretly using a stopwatch to time how long I spend on achieving compliance when something has to be done and a child is reluctant.

It's done me the world of good when I am losing patience to realise it has not even been two minutes!

I think with UP you do need to run aquick check on how you would naturally respond to a situation as an adult and try to understand the child's take on the same situation too before you respond. Ime children are far more relaxed and cooperative with this approAch and there is much less time consuming conflict / tantrums/ power struggles/ manipulation / game playing.

As has been said before, if you role model valuing and respecting others it comes back to you from the child. Interrupting a child playing is the equivalent of a child interupting an adult working. Not great , but sometimes it can't be avoided.Play is important and should be treated as such.

Simic FWIW I really appreciated youur post about why you like UP.

I suffer from complete goodgirl-itis...worried about getting "done" even when doing The Right Thing.

DS is only 9m so I'm new to parenting...nevermind the unconditional type (about to read the book) but have found that it has made me question much about myself...what traits of mine would i rather ds didn't have? Can I do this? etc. SO I understand where you are coming from.

Also fwiw isn't it all really about setting a good example?

If you always expect to do what you say BECAUSE YOU SAY SO then your dc's learn that this is how adults act. They demand.

If youu are prepared to discuss and explain other peoples points of view they learn that that is how adults behave. They are considerate.

Simic, re your OP, I find what works for us is to spell out veeeeery slowly what the possible consequences of various outcomes/choices will be. I have had a similar problem with DD aged four being unwilling to stop her glitter creation in order to go to preschool (which she loves and cries when she can't go because she is too poorly). The days I drop her, I am not working, so it's slightly different from your situation.

BUT, what I do is say 'now, look, we can do this the nice way or the nasty way. If we do it the nice way, I am going to put your glitter picture here and your glue here and keep them really safe until you can get home and finish your lovely picture. Nobody will get upset and nobody will feel cross and you will put your shoes and coat on quickly and I will be really impressed that you did it all yourself in a really grown up way without me needing to help you and you will feel proud that you did it yourself, too. Then you can get to school on time and there will be lots more fun things to do there' etc etc - you get the picture.

Then I say 'If we do it the nasty way, I am going to have to make you put your shoes on because you cannot go out without shoes. I am going to make you put your coat on because it's cold. You won't feel as proud as if you put them on yourself and we will probably be late which the teachers at preschool won't like. They like us to be on time every day because that is how school works. The teachers turn up on time and it's not very nice for them if the children are late. Probably, if we do it the nasty way, you and me will both feel upset and someone might cry and when you get to school you won't feel as happy as you would if we did it the nice way.'

I don't know if your DC would go for that, but after a couple of years of spelling out what the nice way and nasty way of doing things are, DD has never yet chosen to do it the nasty way (I would totally let her if she wanted to).

She is four, btw, so I can't imagine that a five year old wouldn't be able to grasp it. Now, I usually only have to say 'look, shall we do this the nice way or the nasty way?'

Some things are non-negotiable. Being on time for work is one of them - you could also point out to her that being late is actually causing you a problem and that nobody likes to be told off (which is what will happen to you if you are late, in simplistic terms).

I don't think there's any need for frogmarching etc. Children aren't dim, just a tiny bit self-centred!

Hortons approach has the paren telling the child how th child will feel. Not an UP approach at all - the nice way or the nasty way fills me with horror personally as a parenting approach but I do think everyone needs to find their own style of parenting.

Well, the things I am saying about her feeling proud about her putting her own shoes on etc are things that she is actually genuinely excited about being able to do - she's unusually rubbish at such things. I know lots of kids do this kind of thing younger but she will regularly come in and announce 'ta-da!' when she's done something of that kind so I do actually think that's what she will feel. She's not the kind of child who would step back from saying 'no, I won't think that' either.

Apologies if my post was unhelpful. I was just offering a way of achieving everyone getting out of the house on time with nobody getting upset or having to be repeatedly reminded about what they have to do next or frogmarched or anything which works for us. As I say, these days it is literally just a sentence rather than having to go into the whole thing.

'If youu are prepared to discuss and explain other peoples points of view they learn that that is how adults behave. They are considerate.'

This actually depends on the personality of the DC! My parents did it. It worked for me and one brother-it didn't work for my other brother-he wasn't open to reason.

why does hortons example fill you with horror fatty ?

she knows her child will be unhappy if it goes the 'nasty way' so why not warn her of that?