How to deal with damage when other kids tell yours they are ugly and they lose self esteem?

[Persimum]

Any mums out there who have to keep trying to make their kids feel better when they lose confidence at school cos others tell them they dont fit in cos they dont look good enough?

Why do some kids cope and others dont?
How do mums cope? Any tried and tested ideas please that work. im finding this a big worry for me and for offspring. School itself is no help and nothing they can do anyway I know it has to come from the child but child doesn't believe anyone but the ones who say they look rubbish. Breaks your heart to watch it, let alone totally frustrating.

How old are your kids? This is emotional and psychological bullying. The school should and must help. Don't let them fob you off and leave you and your DC's to try and deal with it alone, especially if it's happening during school hours. It is their responsibility if a child is being emotionally harmed whilst under their care.

That aside, and I should say I have no personal experience of this, if it were my DC's, I would try and explain to them that the other children are being bullies and that this sort of behaviour is usually because they have problems of their own (probably at home) and they are taking these problems out on others. Therefore the things they are saying are not really about your children, but about how the bullies feel inside about themselves. The bullies most likely have self esteem issues and in order to make themselves feel better they make somebody else feel bad.

By explaining it like this, your DC's may be able to see that this is not really about them and how they look, but about the bully and how he/she feels inside about him/herself.

HTH and hope somebody else will be along soon who has more advice for you.

Cheers ABitTipsy (no pun intended ) what you suggest to say to DS is helpful and thank you for it and I'll use it with him if i can get ever him to listen. Getting him to believe it is something else I have said that kind of thing lots of times but its good to have someone say it was the right thing to have been doing. Gives me the impetus to keep on doing it. Sometimes you run out of steam over the years cos this problem seems insoluble.

i hate to say that tho it would be fine if schools could help ive tried that for years and years at both junior and senior schools and to be fair to them, they really can't cos this whole thing is media driven. Many kids who watch stuff like Simon Cowell seem to get a mindset that image is all that counts. They can also be so cruel, ignoring people, making nasty remarks, just cos they think they can and once it starts, targeting one person, a lot get a laugh by joining in and it just goes on and on. The kid gets stuck with it and then it follows them from lower school to upper school etc. The others don't just do it in school, it happens on the bus and in town on a Saturday walking through and passing them. My DS wont go shopping in town any more even with me and/or his dad.

A tough shell seems to be the best thing you can give your kid these days. Sensitivity sure is a no no. I didn't fully get that till it was pretty much too late and now the damage is done and im still hoping theres a way back but i do wonder. i know a few other mums from other places who are left with the same problem and feel helpless as their kids are stuck in the mindset which began so far back in their lives. We need more empathy when kids are little. They need lessons in that, almost more than lessons in anything else when they are starting out. that's what i think anyway. sad

Persimum, i absolutely agree about teaching kids empathy from when they are little. The bullies lack any empathy which is why they can behave the way they do and not care at all how much they are hurting another person's feelings. It is very sad like you say.

My DC's are still quite young so haven't really encountere anything like this, but I do worry about it as we do seem as a society to be totally focussed these days on appearance and image and I wouldn't be at all surprised if one or both of my DC's experienced something like this at some point. I have always tried to teach them to think about other people's feelings and to be caring and kind people, but like you say, perhaps I should try and toughen them up a bit as they are going to get hurt by others who don't care about their feelings. But how do I toughen them up? And I don't want to anyway, I would end up disliking my own DC's if they were unkind, bullying types. It is so sad and such an indictment of our society these days.

ABitTipsy i think so long as you encourage your children to really talk to you if they feel unhappy and confused about what someone has just said to them, then you can put it right straight away by explaining it to them whilst its fresh. The problem seems to be when they are so hurt that they are almost speechless and they can't put it into words to tell you, which is what happened to my younger DS, who was a sensitive little guy anyway, and a lovely happy chap till he was 6. Then it seems he was pole-axed by what some kids said. He wasn't ugly, he was just frightened and shy. He blushed and went quiet and the remarks went on. Then someone played a game where they all ignored him and ran away when he came near. The school staff eventually sorted that out. But the remarks went on and on.

The same kids travelled through education together, even to Uni in some cases, even to places of employment in our area, and the remarks still go on to this day. His older brother also used to say this stuff to him, sibling rivalry i suppose, and i only found that out this week talking to him on the phone. I know there must be other mums out there going through this who feel as bad as i do. Some kids are eventually diagnosed with BDD (body dysmorphic disorder) but what i'd like to know is, would they ever have got bothered about what their body was like to that extent if people had not gone on and on about their looks and sometimes treated them differently cos of how they looked? DS has a really nice refined face, fair hair, but he often has a frightened look in his eyes when walking in public places and i guess people see it and pick up on it.

i so agree when you say that society has changed and this is so sad. i too value very much my DS's kindness to others, he would never treat anyone else badly, but he is riddled with fear, tensed up ready for what he thinks will be the next remark. Even just a joke he takes the wrong way. His life is awful cos he feels unfit for being accepted in society and yet he's actually one of the nicest people you could want to meet, when he forgets about this worry about himself.
i'm sure your DC's will be OK but i wrote this cos i feel mums need to be aware right from the start, and watchful so they nip it in the bud and get balance introduced from the beginning. Quite how i'm not sure, i'm really glad to get ideas from anyone to add to my resource bank

Persimum, I am so sorry to hear about your younger DS. That is so sad, that he is still affected by it. I agree that tackling it as and when it happens is crucial and you are right that sometimes children are so hurt and shocked by what's happened that they are unable to tell you about it later on when they see you after school perhaps. I have had a few incidents with DD who is 6 where I have only found out about things a while afterwards and we have managed to sort it out. But it has made me realise I need to be alert to DD's behaviour as that is my biggest clue as to what is going on with her ie if she is a bit stroppy/grumpy after school I have learnt to ask her if something has happened that day and usually it has and once she has told me she goes back to her cheerful, happy self.

I think your DC's experience has struck a chord with me on a personal level. I had bad eczema as a child and I used to get teased very badly about it by my sisters. And my confidence has been affected by their teasing to this day. So I can relate to how your son feels in a way. I still get eczema flare ups now but am much better at handling other people's negative reactions and comments although I am still hurt by them. I am trying to develop a strategy to deal with people's insensetive comments when they happen and this in itself has given me much more confidence.

Perhaps you could work together with your son and help him practise and develop some comments he can respond with the next time somebody says something nasty to him? Eg. if somebody makes a tactless remark to me about my eczema I hope I will come out with "That's a tactless and insensetive thing to say, are you always so tactless?" It gives me back a feeling of control over the situation rather than being at the mercy of other people's comments.

ABitTipsy, this is so interesting. Also on a personal level, like you with the eczema, i had the most appalling acne as a teenager and he did too. So i knew a lot of what he was feeling when the taunts about it began at school. i felt bad, not only for myself when the memories which came flooding back of what had happened to me, but bad for sort of inflicting it on him through his inherited genes and going through the hell of it again but unable to help him enough.

I think women are better at handling the 'tactless remark' situations than men. Your strategy is excellent. i've suggested this kind of thing to him, or having a joke with the person when they say something pretty rude about him - counter it by saying something funny/cheeky about them. Making light of it. But the world of today's young people is so tricky, he says it wouldn't work. i have to admit he's a fairly serious kind of guy, but loyal and fun in his own way.

You are so right about when your DD comes home grumpy or stroppy and it usually means something has caused it. When the other kids first ignored our DS, his teacher had us in and said he'd started kicking other children and this had surprised her cos he was such a kind little boy normally, and asked if things were OK at home? We asked him that evening what the reason for his behaviour was and he at last told us about them all ganging up and totally ignoring him. So he'd gone up to one of them and kicked her to make her speak to him. The teacher then watched at playtime and saw it for herself, and dealt with the ringleader. But at the same time we'd also told him never to kick out, to talk and resolve things with us and the staff. I just wonder if he lost his will to fight at that time. He might have appeared more scary and strong to the other kids in future if we hadn't impressed on him to stop fighting. i've wondered about this so often since.

I think your strategy is the right one. To come out and say you don't like what is being said to you when its hurtful and tactless. He should have done that but i don't think he knew how when he was 6. i think all the hurt has gone deep inside him and now he almost doesn't know where to dig to find it and get rid of it. He's had a lot of counselling and he's worked hard at that, he's clever and able and a lovely guy, but in night clubs, pubs, out in the street, people make these outlandish comments and i know they do it to a lot of people just cos they can and cos society is like that now, but with him its like an open sore, he just freezes up and goes into panic mode cos he can't laugh at it.

The feeling of control over the situation that you mention at the end, is the feeling he must find from somewhere, and i guess hopefully one day he will, but i think he'd want to work it out with someone other than me cos that way he does it himself, privately, independently and keeps his adult dignity. i have a lovely photo of him when he was 9, grinning with happiness on a family outing, and i've shown it to him and said it would be great to see him feel like that again.

i guess recently i'd got really frustrated with the endless worry of all this. You can't shut it off and walk away when its your DS even when he's grown up if he turns to you for support now and again. You are a mum forever, in your heart. Thanks for your sympathetic and thoughtful responses, it really has helped a lot and kept me ticking along . i'm sure you will help your DD tremendously and she'll be just fine.

Persimum, your poor little DS. Even though he's grown up, like you said, in your heart he is still your little boy and it breaks your heart to see him hurting.

I can really relate to how he feels. I still have eczema now and although I have had many years being completely free of it, the last few years have been a nightmare and it has been really bad and it is really visible, on my face and hands which makes it that much worse. So I can totally relate to how your son feels when people make nasty or tactless/insensetive comments, or even if they don't say anything but I can see the look on their face as i walk past or something. I carry a lot of hurt around inside me caused by people's comments/reactions and this is actually the first time I have ever really talked about it.

I think with society the way it is today, it must be very, very hard for your son, harder than it is for me as I am middle aged and most people I mix with are my age and have usually learnt a bit of tact and empathy, so I have got a nice group of friends who I feel comfortable with. But your son as a young adult is having to cope and survive in a world that is obsessed with appearances and a world that values a person according to how they look.

I'm glad you son is having counselling, he probably finds it easier to talk to a counsellor than you sometimes.

Does your son have any close friends he can confide in about how he feels? It might give him more confidence in social situations if he has a friend by his side who can give him a bit of moral support when needed? I know it's harder for boys than for girls though.

I'm happy my ramblings have been of some help to you and I do very much hope you and your son find a way to build up his self esteem and self confidence. He is lucky to have a mum like you who cares so much, when I had my eczema flare ups at home my mum didn't seem to care at all and I certainly couldn't go and talk to her about how I was feeling, so you are doing a great job.

Sadly lots of bullies don't have self-esteem problems. They have TOO much self-esteem: they are full of themselves. Frankly, they will only empathise with others when they're taken down a peg or two.

Here are some links about the myth of low self-esteem and the link (or not) with bullying:

articles.latimes.com/2005/jan/25/opinion/oe-baumeister25

www.safe-nz.org.nz/Articles/esteem.htm

I remember my Dad told me to ignore people like that and they'd get bored and go away. I was sceptical, but amazed that it worked completely from the very first time I tried it.

create, you were lucky in that case. Most bullies don't just go away if you ignore them. And that might be possible for an adult to do but a child can be deeply hurt by nasty personal comments against them and will need help in dealing with his/her feelings. Telling a child to just ignore a bully is useless and unhelpful advice imo.

abr, bullies might appear to have very high self esteem and seem full of themselves, but imo deep down inside they have low self esteem and try and hide it by appearing extra confident. I do believe too high or too low self esteem are the cause of many problems. The key is to have a healthy self esteem, ie neither too high nor too low.

Can I also recommend Karate? When DS1 was being bullied, we enrolled in him a very good local class. The teachers were incredibly positive, so gave him lots of encouragement and belief in himself; he met a new group of people in a structured environment, so got some new positive relationships going; and he started to achieve things he could be proud of - something to hang onto when feeling low.

Finally it made me feel as if I was doing something positive for him, so took some of the awful stress out of feeling that your dc is suffering and there is nothing you can do.

HTH

You think ABit? I've always felt it was the best advice mt Dad ever gave me I was about 11 at the time and it's worked for me more than once since

i've checked those links on self esteem, Abr1de and i must confess i did agree with them and will email them to him tonight as i think it may help. They say pretty much what he feels in some ways.

i also think ABitTipsy is in a sense right too in that people who do this hurtful stuff may be lacking in self esteem or is it more that they lack AWARENESS about empathy cos no one ever got across to them from when they were little, how short term and shallow is the satisfaction you get from tormenting someone (and for most people deep down there must surely be even just a niggle of conscience)in comparison with the lasting good buzz you get from doing good stuff for people and feeling that they like you and you help them. So maybe deep down they feel they dont actually like themselves but they dont understand why, and maybe they just resent quiet nice vulnerable people and have a go, cos they can get away with it and cos they find them irritating. it's this pack mentality which is so scary and horrible. My DS keeps saying its down to how you look as well. if you don't look right there is no hope for you to fit in, you don't get invited to parties as you are not cool to be seen around with. Abr's links make very interesting reading and a lot of sense.

Karate is a great idea NotQGU, thanks, i'll suggest that to him too. One of his big fears is that as he is slim and sensitive looking and sometimes people ask him in pubs or meetings if he's gay (he isnt) and he says he worries about this cos he knows that some people beat up some quiet gay people just for the hell of it, (which is really terrible). So at least having learnt karate, he could know instantly how protect himself well, without getting into an aggressive confrontation where he might come off worst, and that would be one fear lessened. Like you say, it would help me too as i'd feel i'd offered him something really constructive and tangible.

its a tough world out there for young people now. Like ABitTipsy says, its still awful when people have a go at us when we are much older, but we have usually our own family, kids, friends, we are not just making our first sorties into finding our place in the world. So we can think of those who love us and rate us when dealing with hurtful remarks from others and it does help cos the others don't matter so much, or hardly at all.

There's a good book on how the brain works that i got recently, quite a funny one, (The Little Book of Big Stuff abut the Brain by Andrew Curran) and it says you need to give yourself rewards to counter sad thoughts and thus re-balance the mind. i guess this is why i keep weakening and nibbling chocolate when i start getting really worried about him if he's going thru a bad patch like now.

ABitTipsy you ask about his friends. He has a few really good ones but he'd -never- tell them how he feels, nor the people he employs. He's terrified of letting anyone know how he feels except his GF and she is quiet and shy too so he helps her prob more than she helps him. She's very reliable tho and would never tell anyone anything he confided and that means the world to him. But at the same time,i know she doesn't say much back either in constructive help cos she doesn't have his experiences, thank goodness.

Create's idea of ignoring them is good and i think that's what he tries to do most of the time but in so doing i think the hurt and anger goes inside -him-. When people you work with make cracks about your face, and you day to day have to get on normally OK with those people, you can't ignore them but you tend to ignore what they say or smile and change the subject or even laugh. i think he should turn into a tiger now and then and growl back and surprise them but he says he just can't, he'd feel stupid and they'd tease him worse cos they are winding him up and they'd see its having an effect.

He'd be very upset if he knew i'd written all this rambling stuff but it really has helped me through a bad week to put it down in words and not feel alone with it so thank you all. He'd see what i've done as a betrayal. i can remember feeling very like him when i was young. My mum meant well but she was a bit gossipy. it made me quite secretive for my own protection. i expect he feels the same, poor chap, so i dont talk to anyone about his problems except one or two of my old school friends who live far away, as i know it would totally destroy his trust in me. Till now, of course

create, hi yes I do think you were lucky if the bullies just left you alone when you ignored them. Most bullies just come back day after day unless you stand up to them.

Persimum, yes, I do think the bullies lack empathy and this is what allows them to be bullies. They were probably never shown empathy for their feelings when little and so never learned how to respect the feelings of others. It's a very complex area and one I have done a lot of reading on because of my childhood issues (a long story for another thread!).

Persimum, I can understand your DS feeling terrified of telling anyone how he feels. I was and still am the same to a certain extent. I never confided in anybody how my eczema made me feel, I always put on a front, acted normal, even laughed at myself a few times along with people who were making fun of me. In my case I found it hard to talk to people, even close friends, because it was just too painful. There was so much hurt bottled up inside, it was just too much to talk about. It has taken me a long long time to reach the point now where I am able to tell a very few handful of people how I feel when my eczema is very bad, but I still find it hard. However, telling people how I feel has been the best thing for me and my confidence.

My from own experience, I would really urge you to try and encourage your son to talk to somebody, a close friend or his GF about how he feels. Even though I am sure he feels it is the very last thing he wants to do, just talking about his feelings will be very empowering for him and might give him the confidence to stand up to work colleagues etc.

Re the work colleagues, I think he does need to say something as like you said even if he ignores what they are saying, he still feels very hurt inside. It's fine to ignore what people say if it genuinely doesn't hurt you, but if it does, it is impossible to ignore it as what they say stays with you, and you might ignore them by not responding or reacting to them, but inside you are very much affected by what they have said.

You said he 'employs' people ie so do they work for him? I can see how that would make it hard for him to say something to them. It's very hard to expose your vulnerability to people when you have no idea how they will respond, as we already know, not everybody has the capacity for empathy and compassion.

I can totally understand your need to talk about this persimum and MN is great for this so I hope you will keep posting. You need support too as like you said, you can't just switch off from your son's feelings just because he is grown up and you need an outlet for your feelings.

I sincerely hope your son finds a way through this situation. It is so sad that we have become a society so focussed on looks and money. But there are still many lovely, kind and caring people out there, your son needs to see these people out and surround himself with them, and steer clear of the others as much as possible, even if it means perhaps changing jobs.

Hi,

I agree with Notquitegrownup about the karate classes, not for self-defense really but for boosting self-esteem. I was bullied at school and have always felt fat and unattractive even when I was quite slim. The best thing I ever did was join a ladies rugby team - they were always short of players so I was welcomed with open arms even though I wasn't very fit or co-ordinated and it is def not a sport that focuses on body image. I was so nervous when I turned up at my first training session but it was brilliant and I stayed with the club for 2 years until we moved away. Those 2 years made a huge difference to my self-confidence and to the way I felt about my body. I felt really valued for what I could contribute - turning up to training and games (and the pub and curry evenings ) and working to improve my playing.

I'm not suggesting rugby for a sensitive young lad but I do think doing a sport/activity makes you more aware of your abilities rather than your looks and, in the right club/group, having a common interest helps everyone get along and takes the focus off the stupid popularity contests. It has to be the right club though - my brother played football and had to be very thick-skinned as the boys were horrible to each other and constantly blamed each other when they lost.

Sorry if that was a bit of a ramble, I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

Hi RugbyLM - what a brave and great move that was to join the Rugby ladies and what a fun bunch of people you must have been. Wish DS could be in a club with lovely ladies, he'd be over the moon!

I so agree, sport and exercise are really good in lots of ways, he does do a gym (with GF) but only when he's feeling brave about going out there and facing folk. You've got to find the right people to be with though, or have the right first experience when you break the ice, and that conditions how things continue.
I do understand what you are saying.

i've suggested the karate - his answer was, 'why, do you think i'm likely to get beaten up then?' But he may think it over and decide to do it.

Hello again ABitTipsy - what you say is really touching and if you felt like it at some point, your reading research and your own story of childhood would be so helpful to read for MNetters. Talking to friends does help a lot, its just that he hasn't felt like trusting anyone just yet i think. Maybe he did it before and got betrayed, i don't know, he hasn't said and i haven't liked to ask. i've found as i grew older that sharing worries makes them lessen, also you find other people have the same ones and you don't feel so alone.

Do you find that stress makes the eczema worse? So its like a Catch22 situation? i think you've been amazing to manage this problem without a mum who was understanding and supportive. Mums are so important for things like that, and yet you are obviously supportive for your own DC so you are giving them what you didn't get. That's wonderful. My mum would have been great as gran to my DSs but she died very early. She was warm and funny and loving though and i've tried to be the same. So i was lucky with having her to learn from even for a short time, but i so wish she was here now talking to my DS, i feel sure she'd get thru to him where i can't seem to.

i think there is an element of shame about it all with my DS. i think he feels ashamed of having a problem, as if its his fault, which of course it isn't, and its the same shame that makes him not talk to anyone. He does talk sometimes to the GF i think and she is really sweet. i guess he is trying to keep his dignity with her though too as they are in a relationship and he feels he must be strong for her and manly or maybe he fears losing her.

He does employ people and i feel if they realised how they hurt him with their comments, they wouldn't do it, but if he doesn't tell them, who's going to? (In my heart i'd just love to but my DH says it would be the worst thing i could do, and to stay at a distance, and i know he's right really so i never ever would). Again its the dignity thing. i don't think they are nasty at all at heart, just totally insensitive and maybe don't know his history of dealing with this stuff all his life. What one never knows is also, if they did find out, would they care or would it weaken him in their eyes as they'd be too embarrassed to know what to say.

Anyway, i feel much better having read what you and the Rugby lady wrote, and i will go on posting if you think i should but don't want to be boring about it all and this exchange has given me a lot of help already. If you feel able to, do tell more of your experiences and research and any specially good books you've read on the subject, both in coping with hurt and also in dealing with skin problems. Even if you don't decide to, thanks again for all your excellent input and ideas Your DC are very fortunate in having you!

Persimum, when you say your DS does things like going to the gym but "only when he's feeling brave about going out there and facing folk", well that is exactly how I feel sometimes. Sometimes I just can't face going out, I just don't feel strong enough to withstand the funny looks and double takes I get from some people. Other days I feel ok and can handle that sort of stuff.

Re the feeling of shame you mention, again, I can completely relate to that. I also used to feel a lot of shame about my eczema, not so much these days because I have done a lot of work on myself and my self esteem and have a lot more confidence about myself, but, yes the feeling of shame is very familiar. And also the feeling of not being as good as other people, of somehow being 'defective' or 'inferior' because of my eczema. And I used to feel grateful and even surprised that people were willing to be friends with me as I didn't think I was worthy of having friends.

Re stress, yes stress definately does make my eczema worse. But it's not just stress in general, but specifically, if I bottle up my feelings and pretend eg I am not hurt by a comment when actually I am very hurt and upset, then, hey presto next day I will have a flare up. So, I have learnt to be very conscious and aware of my feelings and careful to not bottle them up, and in this way I am managing to reduce the flare ups quite dramatically. I found a very good book talking about the connection between skin and emotions callled Skin Deep by Ted Grossbart who is a 'psychdermatologist' and reading that book was a turning point for me in learning to deal with whatever was triggering my eczema flare ups.

And yes, it was very hard for me growing up with this condition and not having a support and understanding mother to whom I could talk about my feelings and how upset and depressed I felt about having eczema. It was made even worse by the fact that my 2 sisters don't have the condition and could go about their daily lives without this millstone around their necks and they themselves made things even worse by being the most tactless and insensetive people about my condition. I found outsiders ie friends far more sympathetic than my own family (again that whole story belongs on another thread!) and these days I have very little to do with my parents and sisters and feel so much better for it.

And I think you're right in that his work colleagues are probably just not thinking about what they are saying as opposed to being deliberately nasty and cruel. Rather than your son trying to tackle them all as a group, is there one person within that group who he could talk to individually about how their comments are extremely hurtful to him and at least get one sympathetic person on his side who could then talk to the others? Or your son could take the bull by the horns and call a meeting and tell the group eg that this is a sensetive subject for him and whilst he knows the group have no bad intentions he would appreciate a bit of consideration for his feelings from them. It may cause a bit of awkwardness at first between them all, but I am sure this would pass and they would revert to their previous jokes and banter, but this time hopefully, minus the jokes about your DS and the jokes at his expense.

I really feel for your DS. I have never been in the exact situation that he is in ie with his work colleagues, but I have been in enough situations where people have been very tactless, insensetive and downright nasty and cruel about my eczema right in front of me, to know how hurt and upset he must be feeling. I have been quite ruthless in cutting such people out of my life and only allow people into my life who treat me with respect and consideration for my feelings. I know that is a lot harder to do when it comes to work situations. Without giving away the fact that you have posted on here, I hope you can find some way of telling your DS that there is at least one person out there who knows exactly how he feels.

ABitTipsy this is so helpful and comforting. But i'm sorry its been so hard for you too. My DS's elder brother didn't have the skin problems either and says he doesn't understand younger DS at all, used to wind the other one up all the time, no sympathy whatever. it was much easier for him to be an outgoing person, as you put it so well, without the millstone of this to carry. Just occasionally he'd be kind and talk about things, and then he'd act like the chat had never happened and the seesaw of emotion was not good for younger DS (or us). i think that's why he's reluctant to confide in anyone anymore actually.

in fact they are not in contact any more, not cos of this, more cos of his brother going off into a different world altogether of his own choosing, different lifestyle, different ethics etc and telling us he didn't want to see us anymore. We were sad about it at first and tried to mend bridges but are not sad any more, we just accept it and are glad the younger DS is not made miserable by him anymore. I think you are quite right about being ruthless and cutting people out of your life who are unfeeling and make things a torture to get through.

Your second paragraph is exactly like he feels, and indeed like i used to when i had the acne when I was younger. i will try to get that book you mentioned, it sounds good, thank you. i think in the end the only way to cope with going out there and being free to do so happily is to imagine yourself as you'd like to be, get a feeling of well being going inside yourself, like stoking up a fire, and then just act positive and almost put on blinkers so you don't see the other people staring (if they are, or even if you just imagine they are). Pretend in your mind you are dancing along to a favourite song as you walk down the street and swing along. Watching good movies helps as well, he says so anyway and i found it so.

ABT there are so many lovely people out there like you and DS (and me, if its not cheeky to say that) who are struggling with these feelings almost every day of their lives and its so wrong that they should have to. i think we ought to start a movement, a huge club, to which we could all belong and in our own ways, be supportive and fight back. if something doesn't happen soon about teaching little kids empathy, never mind the big ones, society is going to get worse and worse and will get less and less fun to be a part of for anyone at all. i wish i could tell him what you've written cos its so good, and in time maybe that will come, but he's just too uptight right now. But it helps me right now, and makes me a better more relaxed mum, makes me less uptight and so, much better with him and he'll pick up the vibes. He rang today and i was calm and strong and i didn't get that usual sense of fear that what i said might not be helpful for him.

Like you say, families can be very tricky. We don't choose them and they are so close to most of us as we grow up that we have this sense of obligation to try and get along with them but sometimes they think so differently to us and they can be downright impossible. One feels a duty to try to like them but my DH's has been so awful that really i don't care what they think anymore. i don't think we are on the same wavelength at all. So we keep our distance and it sounds like you do the same. i just find it so hard to understand why people are unpleasant towards each other when they could have so much fun being kind and supportive. But maybe i'm very naive!

Thanks again for the exchange of ideas and the book and i'll order it at once. Next time you go out, try the blinkers and dance along to your favourite pop tune in your mind, ignoring all else! Then see how it feels. Just might work Give it a go.

KerryMumbles - this is fine if it works out this way but my child grew into 'himself the person' but the himself he grew into apparently didn't look cool enough to land up in your situation. Being good at sport is a great plus, it helps in the popularity stakes and its good for confidence too. i think we all grow into ourselves eventually in time, like you said, and things do come right, but for some it works better than others and takes longer. Glad it worked out so well for you anyway!

If you feel totally ok with yourself why the need to cause damage to others by making them feel small. Bullies are damaged themselves but no excuse. They are damaged and nasty. If I don't like someone I just ignore them Shame bullies can't leave it at that. I';m sure your son is a hundred times bettre than these idiots.

Because you lack empathy and it amuses you. Seriously. Most of the boys who bullied my son are popular and sporty.

Most of the boys (and girls) who treated my son as a lower form of pond life (ignored him, tripped him up in corridors, whispered like a chorus quietly in lessons using words i won't go into but which related to an animal he was supposed to resemble, and did other much worse stuff which i can't write here) were seemingly confident outgoing 'intelligent' individuals from mostly quite affluent families.

it was a 'top' private school where, when we went to see them, both the head and his deputy said 'oh we don't have bullying here' to our concerns. One member of staff did eventually stand guard unobtrusively and it helped but by then the damage was done and it had been going on for years with some of these same kids who had moved from school to school together. i guess our DS could have gone to the local Comp instead but there were issues there at the time about open bullying and people's heads being flushed down toilets, so as my DS had the choice of one or the other, we chose the other.
i don't think it would have mattered where he went, his GP said some people have a look about them that says 'come and have a go at me'. if that's so, then life's a lottery, and frankly, i'm just appalled. We did ask my DS when he was 15 if he wanted to move school and he said 'no dammit, why should i let the (word i can't use here)s beat me!' and he went on to get excellent academic results cos he said it was the only thing he could do, even if he wasn't acceptable to fit into their world he was going to make sure he could earn well when he left and look after himself. and he has, and his business ethics have been good which he finds encouraging, that you don't have to be a cut throat horrible person to succeed in business. But the old deep feelings of rejection remain in there and any time someone makes a remark like in the old days, something inside him dies.

Of course, we could argue that although many of those kids had affluent parents, maybe no one had had time, will or insight to teach them empathy at home. So in a sense, yes, they may have been deprived, but they probably didn't have low self esteem in the normally accepted sense. Also often stuff which adults say, derogatory comments etc, are first picked up by kids and repeated. Very little kids are normally open and kind and reasonable but then they pick up outside influences and think its OK to say nasty stuff cos others do. This is why i feel so strongly that we've got to get empathy taught from Day One cos once they reckon its OK to put others down, its getting too late.