How to deal with damage when other kids tell yours they are ugly and they lose self esteem?

[Persimum]

Any mums out there who have to keep trying to make their kids feel better when they lose confidence at school cos others tell them they dont fit in cos they dont look good enough?

Why do some kids cope and others dont?
How do mums cope? Any tried and tested ideas please that work. im finding this a big worry for me and for offspring. School itself is no help and nothing they can do anyway I know it has to come from the child but child doesn't believe anyone but the ones who say they look rubbish. Breaks your heart to watch it, let alone totally frustrating.

Poshsinglemum, I am sorry but I don't think your experience has anything to do with this thread. You were the classic 'ugly duckling' who grew into a beautiful swan. In the OP's son's case, the fairy tale has not worked out so happily. He as an adult still has the same issues that caused him to be taunted and bullied as a child. It is easy to develop confidence as an adult if you grow into a beautiful, attractive person, the kind that society readily accepts and values, even if you were bullied as a child. But what about those people whose childhood issues remain with them and the childhood bullying turns into adult bullying and taunting? Telling the OP's DS that he will grow into himself simply doesn't apply and it's not helpful to be told that.

There, deep breath rant over.

Persimum, you say that you struggled with the same issues as your DS when you were a child/teenager. Do you think that your DS's issues are triggering feelings from your own childhood when you were coping with the same sort of problems? This can intensify your feelings about your DS and his current issues and make them almost unbearable as all your own feelings from childhood are coming to the surface.

I cannot describe how it makes me feel at reading how your son was treated at school. And again it strikes a personal chord with me as I suffered similarly, but in my case it was not at school where I was lucky enough to have lovely friends, but at home where I was taunted and name called by my sisters. And as I said above, my mother was not interested, I certainly couldn't go to her and tell her what was happening and how hurt and upset I was. To this day ie 30 years on, if I hear some of the words that my sisters used to taunt me, I tense up and feel anxious and scared. So I know how deep and long lasting the wounds caused by name calling and bullying can go. My sisters lack empathy, I have tried to talk to them about how their behaviour has hurt and upset me and all I get told is that I am being oversensetive and negative. They completely lack the capacity to put themselves in my shoes and understand how their actions have made me feel and so I have no time for them these days, i have all but cut them out of my life.

So, I absolutely agree with you about teaching empathy to little children. I think the only way it can be taught is by example. ie the parent models the behaviour by showing consideration and respect for the people with whom he/she interacts including his/her children and in that way the children grow up with this as their model without even realising it.

My MIL is another classic, she had no sympathy or compassion for me when my eczema flared up really badly after I had DD. All she cared about was how me having eczema made her feel. And she was only worried about what neighbours/friends might think of her as if it was somehow shameful and demeaning to have a DIL who had eczema. And so she made me feel awful, even worse than I did already about myself, making snidey little comments and nasty jokes about my eczema. Never once did she show any compassion or sympathy for me and she is another person I have little to do with these days.

Kerrymumbles, not everyone is like you unfortunately. Most people follow the crowd and follow the society line which values looks above everything else. It takes a more enlightened and stronger person to reject all that and think for himself/herself about what is really important in a person.

Whilst I do wish I didn't have eczema as it has taken years away from me, when I have simply existed instead of living my life as I would have wished, having the condition has also meant I have had to find an inner strength from somewhere and grow as a person and ultimately I know I am a better, stronger and more enlightened person for it and a better parent. As they say "if it doesn't kill you it will only make you stronger!"

Persimum, am sorry, that was a bit of a self indulgent ramble.

I notice what your GP said that some people have a certain look about them. But why do they have that 'look'? I am sure in your DS's case, it is a result of the taunts and bullying he has suffered and endured. Just stepping out into the outside world is a scary and anxious experience for him as he never knows where the next verbal blow or assault is going to come from. And yes, people or should I say bullies, do seem to have a radar that picks up on this vulernability and they home in on that person. And yet others sense that vulnerability and it brings out their compassionate and sympathetic side. And I am sure it's all to do with upbringing, I don't anyone is born as a bully, it is learned behaviour just like empathy can be learned if taught by the parents.

I agree with KerryMumbles about living in an urban environment, it does seem to make a difference as to how people react to issues such your DS's and my eczema.

Persimum, has your DS ever considered contacting an anti-bullying organisation? I am sure they would be able to offer support and strategies for dealing with your DS's work situation?

Dear ABitTipsy - you explain it all so well and it doesn't seem self indulgent to me at all, it makes total sense. i so wish he could read it with a relaxed mind and go with it. You've described things just as he feels them each day.

You are right about me feeling worse about him cos i went through similar stuff, it just tears me apart to see him going through this over years, and i'm old and grown up now and people say 'let go' but i just can't, cos he's such a wonderful person really and none of us feel we (DH&me) can get on and enjoy life till he comes through and out the other end of this. His GF is so nice but i can feel its wearing her down now too, and her parents. She and i don't talk about it much, we just try to keep things jollying along and plan nice things all to do both together and she and he alone. He had another lovely one before at Uni and his worry eventually frightened her and she ended the relationship. i hope that won't happen with this one.

our DS1 was mixed up and said cruel things at home (like your sisters) but i hadn't realised how much. My MIL has been very very difficult to get on with all my married life and also just before. Not openly cruel like yours but spiteful and if she doesn't like you, you've got no chance of changing things. She's more sort of controlling and manipulative. Both DSs soon realised that her relationship with her own DS1 (my DH) was not good. i think this was sad cos they had no balanced 'granny' input as mine was dead before they arrived. it won't have helped their concept of their own place in a loving extended family so maybe has added to the problem. i daren't let her or the other siblings of DH know how my DS2 feels, it would make things even worse and there'd be patronising gossip. DS1 gets on with her at the moment, flatters her etc. cos he doesn't see us at all and she thus feels more powerful and in control of things.

DS2 does live in an urban environment and goes to London a lot on business. he fears people staring at him when he stops his car at the lights. He fears the underground but gets through it. Bless him, he also imagines a lot of what people say/think, i feel sure. When things have been really bad, i've even gone along for the ride just to keep his courage up and distract him. he keeps asking me if he really is ugly. i know he isn't but i can see how vulnerable and unhappy he looks, and when we feel like that, none of us look as good as we could. Animation and smiles make everyone's face fascinating and interesting. But he's not calm enough to see this, or even mature enough. My mum used to say it to me and i just thought it was utter rubbish! (i feel so sorry for my poor mum now )

As to approaching an anti-bullying organisation, i did suggest that but he seems too closed down for anything where he'd have to talk about what he went through. i think in his heart he still worries that he's as ugly as people used to tell him he was and therefore someone might actually agree with him now and then all his hope will be gone. he does want to go off and do charity work in the next few years he says, but maybe abroad. my hope is that someone whose opinions he really sits up and takes notice of, eventually finds him and carries him forward so that he forgets to notice slights and remarks and just feels happy with the good things in life. he's even thought about things like hypnosis with Paul McKenna but it feels a bit iffy and i don't think you should mess with your mind, it must be possible to heal it with your own reasoning powers, helped by people around you who you love. in time maybe he'll get more bloody-minded like i am now, i do hope so, without wanting him to change his kind nature.

Like you said about the GP, anyone who has been endlessly taunted and victimised is going to look a bit haunted and wary, its cause and effect, just getting ready to protect yourself before the next onslaught. However, when he fools around and laughs he looks wonderful and we all feel wonderful and relieved with him, almost dancing around with joy, if that doesn't sound ridiculous!

if your eczema flared after DD's arrival, could it be triggered when hormones get out of balance and if so, as stress of course makes hormones go haywire sometimes, MIL's attitude must have been the very worst thing for you. How absolutely ghastly for you, and with your own mum not supportive either.
But the strength you've grown sounds fantastic, so you've won out in the end!

In the end i think schools will start to make sure they do something about empathy in the pre-school classes. But i really think' like you say, its down to adults, they have got to lead by example. i'm not political at all but i felt so concerned for poor Gordon Brown with all the awful taunts and quips that people made about him and his appearance all the time prior to the Election. People laugh and think its funny to do that, then kids hear it and do it to each other. in the end i suppose we'll get the world we deserve, but i wish there could be a 'Care About Each Other' movement that lots of us could join. People Power can be amazing

Hey there ABitTipsy, do go and look on the thread on Bullying under 'Education' follow acros to -more- which leads to one on recommending a brilliant article on Bullying. Purplemonkeydishwater gives a link to an article written about girls' bullying, mostly in school, but very heartrending and explains how they feel when grown up. At the end of the piece, under the 'comments section', a man also writes his feelings. Just thought you and any others following this might find it really interesting, though it is terrible tear-jerking stuff so don't go there unless you are feeling brave or clutching a bar of Cadbury's fruit&nut and a hot cup of tea if you are anything like me, that is!

Persimum-
Am coming in a long way into the discussion and I can see that others have already given some good sugestions.

I have a similar, but not as bad I think, problem with work collegues making endless snide remarks. It really hurts and is very upsetting. It made me hate going in to work.

one thing I found that helped was to give myself a break from them all. I would allow myself at least one day a week where I pretended I had a lunch appointment and went off somewhere to eat my sandwich by myself. I cut down on the coffee breaks. In short, I gave them less opportunities to "tease" me (as they saw it).

Another technique I used, is a bit abrupt but actually was the one that finally worked for me. When they started "teasing" me I just walked away. Even if they were mid-sentence.

For a couple of days they said I was oversensitive etc. but they did stop teasing me. Now I only get the occasional comment.

I think your DS needs to learn some defense tools. It's far easier said than done, but I use music (headphones) as a barrier to the world when I'm in the underground for example, so even if anyone is making a comment I can't hear them. (I actually did the same at work for a while!)

I hope he can regain some confidence. And he has a lovely mum looking out for him!

PS have only managed to skim read most of the posts so I hope I've not got the wrong end of the stick!

FluffyDonkey these are great ideas, thanks. i know he goes back to his flat for lunch some days, so maybe he finds the space helps. Headphones are a great idea which i'll suggest to him.

On the trains i've suggested reading a paper and hiding behind it. i think though he's in a conflict, he's angry about the world, he doesn't see why people treat people badly and why, just cos he maybe doesn't look as cool as he might, people downrate him (or he considers that they do, from past experience). So he doesn't want to hide away, but he just wants to be 'in the swim' and having fun.

The walking away is a good idea too.

No, you haven't got it wrong, this is all good stuff. Thanks for sending it and for your encouragement

Hi Persimum, got busy for a while, no time to post, but have been thinking about this thread.

Thank you for starting this thread and for articulating so well how things are/have been for your DS. You have in effect been speaking for me as well, putting into words how I have been thinking and feeling myself but in an almost subconscious way; you have helped me face up to a lot of issues I have kept buried and I am grateful to you for that.

I am so very impressed by how much you know of what your DS is feeling. Eg things like how he fears going on the tube (me too, the stares and double takes are horrible and you feel trapped in a way as you can't get out til you have got where you need to go) and how he fears things like people staring at him if he's stopped at traffic lights. I have been there and done that and I know just how dreadful it is, you are living nearly every minute of your life in some state of anxiety and the only time you get some respite from it is either at home (although in my case my family actually made me feel worse) or when you're asleep. It is soul destroying, draining and very damaging for one's faith in humanity. But at least in some sort of sense you are sharing DS's burden with him which must help him even if he may not realise it. I was not so fortunate as your DS, my mother was a cowardly self centred, narcisstic creature and she knew nothing of what I went through, of how I was fearful of going on the tube etc; I couldn't go and talk to her at all, the few times I tried because I was so desperate, she blanked me and changed the subject to the weather or some such thing. She was about as much use as a mother as a chocolate teapot and I finally had the sense to ditch her from my life over 4 years ago and I have not seen her since and have never once regretted my decision, only wish I'd done it sooner tbh. But anyway that is another (long) story for another day.

I can understand your DS being very uptight and shutting down, it's a defence mechanism, the only way he can survive the constant taunts, looks and jibes; he has closed himself off in order to protect himself from being hurt over and over again. And he probably feels it's all hopeless in a way, and so there's no point in reaching out and seeking help eg by contacting an anti bullying organisation etc. I know because I have felt like that. In fact I can see now that I was depressed and it is likely that your DS is too. For me, when I felt like that, there was nothing anyone could suggest that would make me feel better, apart from a miracle cure for my eczema.

And I agree with you about things like hypnosis, I think the solution must come from within at a conscious as opposed to subconscious level. I am now 40 and am at a point where although the looks and double takes still hurt, they do not hurt as much as they used to and I seem to be able to brush they away more easily and not carry the hurt around inside me like I used to. I think this is a combination of getting older, learning that the people who treat me without compassion and understanding do not have to be a part of my life and making room for the more evolved, enlightened and compassionate people in this world, of whom there are plenty. But I have had to do my bit as well by being more willing to open to to people about my eczema and talking about it a little bit and by doing that I feel more at ease with people and they seem to feel more at ease with me and the friendship is closer and more fulfilling for both of us.

It is very hard to open up in this way and ttalk about my eczema and I fully understand your DS not feeling ready to talk about his situation and feelings and it is much harder for men anyway, but I have honestly found opening up and exposing my vulnerability to be the key to feeling better about myself. But it is very important to pick the right people to open up to, otherwise I can risk being very hurt, and again that is something I have learned over time.

Persimum, I think you should be proud of yourself that you have created a relationship with your son where he can talk to you about all this. It's not something to be taken for granted as I didn't have it and wish I had.

Re your older DS, it is a shame he is no longer in contact with you. But I believe we do not own our children, they are entitled to be who they want to be and lead their own lives once they are adults and whilst they are children it is our job as parents to equip them with the (emotional and practical) tools they will need to survive and thrive in this world. There was a great poem I came across along these lines, will try and dig it out, it said something along the lines of the parents are just the vessel upon which our children travel until they find their own place in this world and our children are not our property etc. I try and remember this and I suppose mentally prepare myself for the day when my DC's may decide they want to go their own way and perhaps not want to be a part of mine and DH's life.

Just a few more things. I can understand how your DH feels angry that he should even have to consider things like hiding behind a newspaper on the tube to avoid the stares etc. I totally agree. Why should he have to change his behaviour in any way? It's not he that should change but the thoughtless, careless, inconsiderate people who think it's fine to stare and make another person feel uncomfortable and 'different'. It's other people who need to learn to have some thought for your DS's feelings, to take the time to walk in his shoes for a few minutes, and then see how it feels to be stared at and taunted.

But unfortunately not everyone is brought up this way and so hiding behind a newspaper becomes necessary. But it's double edged sword as on the one hand you at least are 'shielding' yourself from the looks, but at the same time you feel angry and resentful that you should have to do such a thing. It's so very hard. But things are so much better for me these days, even though I have been at rock bottom in order to rise up to where I am now, but I am confident your DS will move onwards and upwards at some point. And he has the added advantage that I never had of his mother's support.

Think you've opened the floodgates! Even meeting friends can be stressful. I met a friend yesterday with whom I feel totally comfortable, have known her for donkey's years. But before we met she mentioned a friend of hers whom I have never met might come over too. Immediately the thought of meeting a new person and knowing that I would probably get at the very least a funny look from them when we first met, had me stressed out the whole day, right up until I met the friend, who did give a bit of a look, but apart from that turned out to be lovely. And the stress of meeting a new person made my eczema worse in itself so it's a vicious circle. But one I don't know how to break unless 'people' change like you say, and be guaranteed to consider my feelings when they meet me and avoid making me feel yukky and ugly and horrible and different.

And the friends I was with were going out for the evening to a pub and were trying to persuade me to go alone. I pretended I was tired and said no, but really it was because of my skin. I am completely terrified of social situations in bars etc (unless I am with DH) and leaving myself open to staring etc. DH knows how I feel so I feel he 'protects' me a bit when we are out together, but my friends, whilst lovely, just wouldn't understand so well and so I said no to what would have been a fun night out with the girls which I am sad and angry and resentful about. And it's an absolute first for me to have somewhere to talk about how these little things in day to day life affect me and I am so pleased that you started this thread as it is helping me enormously.

Persimum has your son tried counseling? It sounds like something needs to change in his life.

Do you know, I think the bullying from siblings is more damaging than from classmates or other children. My mum's brothers were nasty to her and she suffers to this day with self-esteem problems. At 63, with a successful professional career behind her, she is still reluctant to form personal relationships because people might not like her. She's told me some of the things her brothers did and said to her and it is horrifying--50 years have gone by and she's still smarting.

I was bullied at school for one reason and another (one being a very, very noticeable scar on my face) and I somehow managed to come through it. I always had the support of my brothers and once we all left home became very good friends with them. I think this has made the difference between being able to leave the bullying behind and still hurting from it.

Anyway, counseling or therapy of some kind, nobody should have to be afraid of going out or feel they have to hide behind a newspaper.

letsblow, I think you have hit the nail on the head. The taunts, teasing and bullying by my sisters about my eczema was much, much worse than anything said or done by other people. The things my sisters have said and done still affect me to this day, just as you have described wrt your mother and like her, I'm still smarting from it all.

I can forgive some of my sisters' behaviour from when they were very, very young, but it continued well into adulthood and I am not willing to forgive or forget any of their inconsiderate and selfish and thoughtless behaviour towards me as adults.

Persimum, I have recently joined an eczema support group although I haven't been to any meetings yet, will be going to my first one soon, am very nervous, but think it will be good for me. Would your DS consider something similar that is relevant to his issues?

ABit Tipsy I got your recommended book 'Skin Deep' and scan read it at the w/e when looking after MIL between times. (Didn't let her see the book of course!) it is indeed very good, and i'm going to read it carefully now slowly, page by page.

i think with my DS2, he could even just about stand the acne problem (but this book will help I know), but its the things he feels will never come right that confuse and terrify him. (i must be careful what i write here as it just may be that his GF or her very lovely mum read this and will know who i am and thus realise i'm writing about him). Basically from schooldays he was told that parts of his face were not 'right' - eyes, nose, mouth, and that he looked like a freak. On top of that he had chronic acne (on his back mostly but really really bad and which nothing would treat, he tried absolutely everything and still does) so he couldn't go swimming any more except in a tee shirt and he had loved swimming when at school, excelled at it actually. He felt a freak in a tee shirt so he just didn't go anymore.

Actually he doesn't look at all freaky, he looks like a quiet, fair, sympathetic intelligent man with refined features, but when he looks terrified, his eyes get that scared look and that makes him give off vibes which I guess (and this is only my take on it) put people on edge when they are with him.
Mostly he asks me this question, over and over, 'okay then mum, how come if i'm not ugly, i couldn't get a girlfriend at school and women don't look at me in supermarkets and just look away when serving me in pubs etc?' He also says 'You are biased mum, you would have to say i look okay cos you are my mum' I say as a mum its my duty to be honest and it would be cruel to send someone out into the world not looking their best if there was anything, if asked, that i could do to help so i would not lie to him ever.
But i don't think he believes me, the hurt has gone too deep and the fear is so awful he suffers that he'd in a way like to be a hermit, but he's clever, he runs a good business he's built up himself, and he just wants to be 'free' in his mind to bowl along in life like he feels most others do, without appearance cares weighing on him. Its just like you said about going out recently with your friends, he has incidents like that all the time.

i point out that there were only a few girls at his mainly all boys' school and mostly they were outgoing rather self confident academically able girls so there would be bound to be some boys without girlfriends, cos of the shortage of supply, but it doesn't cut any ice really.

I hadn't really taken on board how unkind and unreliable his brother had been for years. its only since he's married into a family doing criminal stuff(who are v possessive and dominating) and gone off into a different life, (telling us DH and i are naive for being law abiding cos there are much easier ways to get rewards etc), that my DS2 has really talked about DS1. DS1 had a good heart up till about 21, was so loved too, but he was like a chameleon, he changed his stance to suit who he was with maybe cos he was also afraid of taunts. when he got married he didn't have one friend he could ask to be Best Man and had to have his wife's cousin. (interestingly didn't ask DS2). Loyalty didn't seem to mean anything to him so he was no help to DS2 at school, but i can remember just a few times when he was kind and supportive to DS2 and it meant the world to him.

So i'm in agreement with you letsblow about the siblings. i started this thread as though DS2 was still a youngster cos i wanted to get mums with youngsters to think about this problem, but he's well past 25 now and has had counselling on and off since he was 15. he was also given various antidepressants but they made him ill but didn't change his mental feelings, which are not deluded, just unhappy. he also joined a social phobia support group and i know he works at all the stuff you are supposed to do with CBT and thinking positive and all, but in the end, its coping with that unexpected knock from a cruel person out in society, like ABitTipsy says, that knocks him off his perch again. i know i must keep talking and reasoning when he calls me (usually if the counsellor is unavailable he'll ring) but i do get scared and wonder if this will go on forever. i know for me i felt better about my skin and self when i met some people in my life who liked me for myself, got to know me, and really had fun with me. But for me they had to be strong, confident people and i sort of sheltered under their wings to start with. he tells me we are not the same, and i'm sure he knows himself better than i do, but i do think we share a lot of things. he's a perfectionist, very driven, so am i. he likes to get on with people and help them. So do i.
Last night, having coped with barbs from MIL all w/e, and with thoughts running through my head about all the rotten stuff she and relations of DH have done to us, i suddenly realised that in the end, 'i am me and my world is mine' and really, no one else has any power over me whatever. Even DS2 when i'm agonising over how else to help, even he can't change my inner peace if i manage to put it there and lie in it like i'm in a pink cotton wool nest floating up in the sky away from it all. instead of that pain one gets in the solar plexus, i felt much better. i expect everyone else knows how to do this but it was quite marked last night how it helped. the awful bitter feelings of unfairness sort of lifted. ABitTipsy we are not going to change these folk who have been so awful, but we can float away from it and love ourselves, and i think that's what we must do. look how you've helped others by writing on this thread. that's what we are here for. the others will not make a difference to lives like you do, and your little DD will be so lovely to know, for her own peers, cos of your input.

I also think it helps me enormously to talk this stuff out and share these feelings. it just shows how many other people do have to deal with horrible stuff, and how different the world would be if only we learnt to be thoughtful right from our very beginnings at nursery school. Which is why my soapbox is, please please get these little souls to learn empathy before its too late. They could even then shame their parents into thinking more before they speak!

ABitTipsy i forgot to add that the acne can be obviously seen on his neck and chest too, and breaks out worse when he eats things like chocolate, pasta etc. Like me, if he's down, he will weaken and nibble at chocolate and crisps. Most of the time he tries not to. Also if he's stressed the acne gets so much worse, but i do think it relates to what he eats sometimes and his levels of stress.

In the SKIN DEEP book i learned a lot more about ezcema - i realise that its what i get when really stressed too on the insides of my arms in the crook of the elbow, but obviously not anything like as incapacitating for me as for you. it starts as a little 50p sized round itchy thing and then it grows and grows up my arms and stays for about 2-3 months usually.

I was also thinking after my last long post, that really we are a bit like soldiers. Someone who comes back battle scarred from Aghanistan should normally be regarded as heroic and treated with respect, not shunned for any disfigurement, as their wounds are a sign that they have fought bravely for their country. i would think therefore that in the most part they hold their heads high and think of their own scars as honourable, not shaming. Those of us who have had scars, skin problems, other appearance issues since we were little, should maybe also try going out there feeling brave too, heads held high, not afraid of showing what's happened to us, or feeling we must hide our scars, marks, whatever, but proud cos we are managing to get through life carrying this stuff (which others have been spared from) with us and are absolutely not going to be fazed by it. For in a way, we have been little soldiers right from the very start, even more so cos mostly we were even not armed with coping skills to fight back. So we've sort of had to learn on the job unarmed.
Maybe we need to form into a band of supportive people who look out for each other, a band of brothers and sisters who work to a code of respect and of never ever saying anything derogatory about others' appearances. who knows, it might catch on, just like smoking has stopped in public places and it is not considered responsible to smoke there now. Cruel remarks could become non-acceptable too and people might begin to feel guilty about making them. it will take longer to actually change their mindsets about what they think, but at least it would be a start. What do you think? Or is this pie in the sky?

Another P.S. ABitTipsy i've just re-read what i wrote about eczema and feel i should add that i didn't mean to make light of it, the kind i get is just a taste, i expect, of what you get all the time, which must be very hard to mentally override. My acne was bad on my face and specially my back, (like my DS2) and i remember my cousin wanting me to be one of her bridesmaids but she chose a low cut back velvet dress and wouldn't consider me having a highbacked version. She said why couldn't i just cover my back with panstick makeup. Nothing would ever have covered the horrendous mess my back was, it was just gross. So then there was a family incident between my mother's brother (her dad) who said i was being oversensitive and ridiculous. my own dad did stick up for me, but the whole thing blew up into an embarrassing incident in which i had to justify my position by showing them how awful my back was, and then them sort of going quiet and accepting my point of view. it all added to the feeling that i was odd and different, and 'why couldn't i stop fussing and just be like other people?' which made me feel attention seeking and a nuisance.
i did go to the wedding and had some little brown pearly buckled shoes which i loved to go with a brown suit and a pink silk shirt with a pussy cat bow. i saw the bridesmaids' lovely clear white backs when we went to help ourselves at the buffet and realised how awful mine would have looked close to in those dresses for the other guests, so i knew i'd done the right thing. But i still felt guilt and shame. i was 14.i don't think other cousins ever understood and i got labelled as difficult and oversensitive.

Persimum, have been thinking about this thread all day but no time to post. Finally have some time now the DC's are going to bed.

I'm glad you got the book, it really was the turning point for me, I very much hope it helps your DS. I'm glad you have been able to post more about the specific issues that are bothering your DS. I guess he and I are slightly different in that prior to the horrendous eczema flare up when I had DD, I was largely eczema free and had been for quite a number of years. And without the eczema which seems to distort my features and gives me horrible patches of skin on my face which are a different colour to the rest and is very dry and rough no matter how much moisturiser I put on, I was ok looking. Or at least I felt ok about my looks which it seems your poor DS does not. So I guess I am pinning all my hopes on my eczema largely clearing up at some point (when I have worked through the majority of issues from my childhood) although I don't think it will clear up by itself, I will have to seek some sort of medical help. I have used alternative therapies in the past (ie chinese herbal medicine) which seemed to work like a miracle, it cleared up quite a bad flare up almost overnight. But when I tried it again when the current flare up started after had DD it didn't seem to work at all. In hindsight now I think that the emotions that were triggered when I had DD, which manifested themselves in my skin as eczema, were so powerful and no medicine would have been strong enough to tackle it. The only way to overcome the eczema was to actually 'process' and 'release' the trapped emotions by 'feeling' them in the here and now even though they were emotions that had actually been created in my childhood but not processed at the time as my still developing childhood brain simply did not have the capacity to cope with such strong emotions that no child should be made to feel and which were caused by the abusive situations I experienced.

It's a very complex area and very hard to explain, and it is very much my own personal experience and it is obvious to me that your DS cannot have experienced anything even remotely similar in childhood simply because I can see from your posts what a loving and caring and concerned parent you are.

However, that is not to say that the taunts your DS suffered outside the home, and I suppose from his older brother, may have created emotions which are still trapped inside your DS's body and putting the delicate balance of hormones etc out of kilter and perhaps causing his acne.

You say your DS has seen a counsellor. In my experience not all counsellors are good enough. I have seen quite a few and know now to gain any real benefit from the counselling, you have to find the right one for you. It has to be somebody that 'gets' you and how you feel and that connection is not possible with every counsellor, in fact I think now you are very lucky if you do find the right match in counsellor for yourself. So all I am saying in a roundabout way is that it might be worth reconsidering/continuing with the counselling for your DS, but making absolutely sure that the counsellor is the right match. Because if your DS geniunely believes he is ugly and is unable to see the beautiful person that he really is then I am sure counselling can help him, help him rebuild his damaged and destroyed self esteem and self confidence. It will probably be hard work, but I absolutely believe he can feel so much better about himself with the correct hgelp, guidance and support.

He needs to start working from the inside out iykwim, see the beauty inside himself, find a level of inner peace and contentment and above all, learn to love himself and gradually he will feel so much better about himself even if nothing changes on the outside.

Persimum, I LOVE, your soldier analogy. I can't believe how accurately you've described how I have started to see myself, eczema and all. In my case, I do feel my eczema is the scar of my childhood. They say only physical abuse leaves a visible scar but I don't agree. I suffered horrific emotional, psychological and verbal abuse and assaults in childhood, from my dad and sisters, (my mum just watched and didn't lift a finger to help or protect me) and eczema is the scar it has all left on me. I couldn't explain the physiology or biology of it to you, but I know with 100% certainty that if I hadn't been abused, I wouldn't have the eczema that I have today.

So I am like a soldier who has been through a war and I have got the scars to show for it. And like you said us soldiers should be proud, we have survived through horrors others can only imagine, and we have survived, and we should be proud of ourselves, scars and all. I am definately starting to believe that in my heart, but it takes a while to really sink in deep. The conditioning, by society, that we are ugly, defective, imperfect and flawed people if we do not fit the societal ideal of beauty runs very deep and takes a long time to overturn. And when society's view is reinforced by my own parents, well, then it's even harder to shake off the idea that I am not ugly or flawed, even with the eczema.

I love your idea of forming a group who are fighting back against the media's brainwashing that only certain types of looks and appearances are beautiful and attractive and that what's inside is completely irrelevant. It's a great idea and not pie in the sky and I think we as a society have gone way too far in how much we are obssessed with looks and image. I hadn't even considered it possible to fight this way of thinking but of course it is. And it does all begin with teaching our children to respect other people's feelings as much as their own.

There are a couple of other books that you might like, and although at first glance they might not seem strictly relevant to you or your DS, I absolutely beleive that ever parent should read them. The first is The Drama of the Gifted Child by Alice Miller and also by her The Truth Will Set You Free and also The Body Never Lies. Alice Miller, who died this year, is the most inspirational and brave and amazing woman I have ever come across and if only every parent read her books and followed her philosophy in raising their children, the world would be a much better place, the sort of place we are imagining, where every child is taught empathy from day 1.

I am so grateful to you for starting this thread and for all your posts, you have no idea how much you are helping me.

Persimum, that's ok, I'm the only person I know with such bad eczema so I don't really expect anybody else to totally understand how I feel. But I have just read your 'bridesmaid' incident and can relate to it totally. I also had to and still have to a degree choose my clothes carefully as I have patches of eczema on my back and arms and legs and am not confident as to just wear what I want and not care about what people say/think.

As women we want to look attractive and I can completely relate to how you felt once at the wedding and you saw the other bridesmaids backs free of acne. That's how I feel when I see my sisters who don't have eczema and who have NO understanding as to how it makes me feel, and also like you say other people who can just wear what they want without worrying about their backs etc. And what a horrendous thing to have to go through about showing your cousin/aunt/uncle your back to justify your point. I have been through similar things, where the others cannot understand why you don't just fit in with them and do as they do. And it leaves you feel so isolated and alone and different and it's all so much worse and harder to cope with when you are a teenager and looks become so much more important.

I used to have to go to sociel events with my family looking absolutely awful, eczema all over my face and hands (it always flares up in the most visible and obvious places, I know why, now) and having to act like I was having a lovely time like everybody else, when inside I was crying and dying really, so depressed that I wasn't pretty like the other girls. My mother should have understood, being female, my dad couldn't have cared less about me, and my sisters were too young, but she never once even asked me if I was ok about going to whichever event we were invited to, she gave no thought to how a teenager might feel about going to a big social event when she had eczema on her face as badly as I did. My mother was far too selfish to think about my feelings or needs, she was only concerned with her desire to go to every social event possible. I would felt so much better if she showed me some thought and concern and asked if I felt up to going to these events and even offered to stay at home with me if I didn't feel like going and not make me feel guilty about her missing the event. But she never once thought about me or my needs or feelings, hers always came first.

And my dad thought I was less worthy than my sisters because of my eczema. He told me once that I should just marry anyone who would have me whereas my sisters deserved better men than me because they didn't have my eczema.

So with parents like that I didn't need the outside world to bully and taunt me, I had it all at home and in fact I was lucky enough to have lovely friends who seemed to make up for my lack of a decent family.

ABitTipsy i just can't think how you coped with both your parents and siblings behaving as they did. Do you suppose cos they were not very aware, if that's the right word, i suppose i mean ^deep thinking6, that they just saw the eczema as a sort of nuisance and you with it, and cos they couldn't be bothered to find ways to help get it better, they just shunned you and decided almost to pretend you were not there?

My DH's family have been very like that for him, but not cos of a skin problem, more cos he was rather chatty and outgoing and what they would term 'gauche' which actually means to most people, 'normal and friendly' but they were so secretive and social climbing that i think his mum was always afraid he would make some social gaff or be too friendly to people she didn't think were people she wanted to have know anything about her. he has been excluded and ridiculed by his siblings ever since i've known him, and yet people outside the family, what i call normal aware, thinking people like him very much indeed and he is the most supportive and kind friend anyone could have. he has been a wonderful dad to our DSs. he tries his best to help DS2 with his feelings of being ugly but men do find expressing stuff more difficult. Also, i have a sneaky feeling, (DS2 never told me but there were hints from DS1) that it was DS2's feelings of protection for his dad that is at the root of the school problems of name calling. My DH does have a very large and rather unusual shaped nose, which maybe some people could find unattractive. Once you get chatting to him you don't even notice it. he's very handsome, funny and delightful to be with. i think kids at school went on and on to DS2 about his 'stupid dad with the big nose' and DS2's emotions, torn between his love for his dad and fear of his being ridiculed, got tangled up and confused. if he tried to defend his dad, no doubt they said 'oh, you'll have a nose like that too when you grow up, no, wait a minute, look at you, you've got one already!' My DS2's main worry has always been that his nose is too big, has even had surgery for it which we agreed to in the end cos we were desperate for him to feel better about himself. The surgery did help and he did feel better about it and managed to ask a girl out afterwards, which worked. But the others also went on about his eyes being wide apart and his mouth being too wide, both of which is just ridiculous, and there's nothing he feels he can do about those things except for ask for reassurance about them, which i give all the time, or try to bump him out of talking about them. i have lovely photos of him which he can't bear to look at. The acne he can have laser treatment for when it finally calms down, so he's trying various groundbreaking medications for it and watching his diet.

i just can't help feeling that if only those kids had not been so cruel at the outset, so much of his life since would not have been spent agonising and worrying over how unacceptable he wondered if he looked, and maybe the acne would just have been the usual stuff a lot of kids get, and gone away cos the stress would have been so much less, his digestion would have worked better and his whole system calmer. People don't realise that so many of life's opportunities are pushed away for those who struggle with this kind of thing cos you don't feel you can speak well in public, you feel inhibited at school so you don't get brought forward with the outgoing types who have, or seem to have, so much confidence. Your whole life does not seem to have the possibilities that others' do. its no good saying 'oh, you can rise above it' cos its the sensitive ones who are hurt by the remarks in the first place, so they are the ones who need the biggest confidence boosts anyway so it takes 100% more effort for them to rise above it in the first place.

You and my DS2 have a lot in common. you are not just lying down and taking this, you are using the experiences you've had/are having, to make yourselves stronger (though right now in his case i don't think he quite sees that )and maybe one day you will both find a way to know that this has not been a wasted journey cos you will have helped so many other people who can't even put their feelings and sufferings into words.

i was so lucky to have a lovely mum. but she had the most beautiful skin and it was hard even for her to understand but she did her best and was always there for me till she died of cancer before my children were born. now i do have the tricky skin and can empathise so well with the DSs (even DS1 had a little of it but not for long) but the downside is that of course i realise i've passed those skin and worry genes on to DS2 in the first place!

Happily my DH doesn't even notice his own nose as being any problem cos with his family he had the other problems of being thought stupid and totally excluded (which goes on to this day). Even his DS1 colludes with them which is truly awful to watch. its interesting (sorry, maybe not the best word) to see how one problem is upstaged or shunted out of the way by another in the individual's psyche. he doesn't worry at all what he looks like, but can't bear being left out. DS2 doesn't like being left out socially either (tells me 'people only invite you to certain events with them if you look good') but his worry is more that someone will stare at him in the street, workmen will call out comments, or sometimes he hears the awful remarks in his head and doesn't even know if he really heard them or not.

Well, like you say, this sharing of ideas and thoughts is enormously helpful. another book i recently read is called 'You is for Unique' (can't immediately remember author's name) with an especially good chapter called 'Pivot' about how someone's life was changed by a new school mate making a cruel remark on the first day at senior school. This whole book is written about women's view of their bodies and how they feel about them, and about remarks they've coped with. Very helpful and interesting.
Will try and find it and post the details later. Both DS2 and i read all we can to understand and learn and cope. my bookcase is getting enormous!

ABitTipsy, maybe its just you and me now batting this ball back and forth, or maybe others who have suffered are still reading it, but it sure is doing some good this end, so on we go

Persimum, I also don't know how I coped looking back! I think I 'escaped' from it all as much as I could by eg spending loads and loads of time outside the home, at friends's houses etc, I would sleep over at my best friend's house all the time. I think I also escaped by reading constantly. I was a total bookworm and always had my head in a book. But I could never escape completely and when horrible things did happen I never talked about it but bottled it all up. I am absolutely sure that the severity of my eczema flare up after having DC's was in direct correlation to the severity of the abusive experiences and emotions I had bottled up if that makes any sense?

It's interesting what you say about your DH, about his family, who should really know him the best, not really seeing the real him at all and thinking the worst of him and yet people in the outside world are able to see who is inside and loving and liking and respecting him for that. That is exactly the situation with my family, even down to them colluding together and leaving me out. They all seem to see me only in a very bad light and cannot seem to see the real me, the person that I actuall am and they would sometimes make me question myself, who is the real me, the horrible, nasty person they see me as or the kind, generous, decent person I try to be and other people seem to see me as. Eventually I realised that my parents are narcissists. They are unable to see the real me, or have any empathy with me or for me which to me explains their behaviour whilst I was a child. They were totally unable to comprehend how their words and behaviour would affect me, to put themselves in my shoes and imagine how I felt. My sisters are following in my parents's footsteps, learning by their example and also seem unable empathise with me. It's exactly what we have been talking about, my sisters were not taught empathy by my parents when they were little.

I always always felt like the odd one out when I was little. It used to upset me as I felt I didn't belong but also puzzle me. How could I share so much with these people ie DNA, genetics, living in the same house etc, and yet inside feel so very different to them all? I think I knew from an early age that I didn't belong in this family. They were very different from me; I seemed to have very different morals and standards to my parents from quite a young age, and it was strange as usually one's parents are the people from who we learn our morals and ethics etc.

I agree with you about your DS2, the horrible experiences he suffered at a young and vulnerable age, when he was still forming his view of the world as a mostly hostile or mostly friendly place, would undoubtedly have impacted him hugely. And if those experiences were not subsequently balanced out or counteracted by more positive experiences then I can see how your DS2 has developed anxiety about going out in public etc. But I am sure counselling will help with that. I had had mostly negative experiences until recently, with my family, in laws and some 'friends'. I am now learning to very quickly end negative relationships and seek out positive experiences and relationships and it has given me confidence in myself as I can now see that many people can see beyond my eczema, many people value and respect me despite my eczema and do not consider me inferior because of it, and all this is counteracting my earlier negative experience of the world.

I think it would help if your DS2 'armed' himself with retorts he has practised to counteract any people he encounters who are rude enough to make nasty comments about his appearance. He would be perfectly entitled to be rude back and I'm sure he can think of some cutting replies to make to these people. If he had a few choice lines (which he has practised at home) at the ready in his head, would he feel a little better about going out? I should do that myself actually, but I mostly get funny looks and stares and double takes and not many actual remarks so it's hard to respond to just a 'look.'

I haven't looked at myself in the mirror for years. I can't bear to. I avoid mirrors like the plague. I avoid catching my reflection in shop windows etc. And yet i feel so sad about the loss of the joy and pleasure involved in getting ready to go out and making yourself look pretty. Without eczema I was happy with my looks and remember when I was dating DH and the happiness and confidence I felt at knowing I was going out looking my best. All of that has gone now. I don't even look in the mirror before I go out or at all. It would destroy all my confidence and ruin my night out. I would feel ugly and self conscious. In fact thinking about it now, the only I do get through my day now is precisely by never looking in the mirror.

ABitTipsy there is lots of very interesting information in your last post to comment on. Going from the end to the beginning, mirrors, well yes i so well know what you mean about them in shops - i hate going round M&S cos they lurk near the isles and sort of shock you if you are not expecting them and ready prepared to block them out. Boots nearly always has them between floors so as you negotiate the stairs, a huge great mirror confronts you and i have to quickly look away and re-compose myself if the mirror captures me before i notice it first. Sadly poor DS2 is secretly always looking in small hand mirrors to reassure himself about the non arrival of more acne or maybe to try to see if he really IS ugly or not. But it never works cos the more you look in mirrors, the worse you feel, and that applies to everyone with even the slightest blemish.

i was just thinking before i read your post that mirrors ought to be banned, the person who invented them did us a big disservice, but then people would probably accidentally drown themselves peering at their reflections in ponds (like Narcissus, only he had the opposite problem of course). i think it is American Indians who don't like mirrors cos they at first felt they captured their souls but maybe i've remembered that wrong, someone can probably put me right.

Your idea about being armed with retorts does seem to me to be a very good one. i think he needs to do some form of self defense first, like the Karate which NotQuitegrownup suggested in an earlier post, cos he fears being beaten up on the street for his appearance. i know other mums too with boys of a kind, gentle, refined face and quite slim like him, whose sons get called gay by people who consider using the word an insult, and he says some girls can just get their blokes to beat someone up on the street or knife them just cos they look, in their eyes, weak or unacceptable. So the street insults he does not react to, he tends to absorb them and feel furious about and ruminate on them afterwards. Every car horn that hoots as it goes past for no obvious reason he assumes is meant for him, to draw attention to the 'horror of what he looks like'.

i often try to reason this out with him but of course its all imo and i can't prove to him what the people were or were not thinking, and that anyway, whatever they were thinking, there are millions of folk out there who don't know him and he can't possibly gain approval from all of them. i just say why can't he bask in the knowledge that lots of us who know him think he's great, and forget the great unknown multitude out there, and he can see the logic, but his heart keeps hammering and telling him otherwise. For the office and for social events though, where he knows the people who make the 'funny' remarks, some retorts* at the ready would be really good.

i would hope his counsellor is helping with this*, and moving him along, but she(i do understand this) must be his own private person and i try never to ask what she says or what he asks her, and i just volunteer ideas if he asks me for them. i did once or twice leave a message on her voicemail when we feared he might take his own life when things got really bad, and she confirmed that she can only do or say something if he talks to her about it so in the nicest possible way, to butt out. that time he went himself of his own volition to Samaritans and they were great. i asked him once what she says if he talks about those feelings of 'not wanting to be here anymore' and he said 'well, she just sort of looks embarrassed, i don't think she knows what to say'. i just hope she is really moving him on and helping and that he trusts her, but it is so difficult for him even to go and find one at all or have the will to, that its prob better to stick with her than to have no one in place to talk to, and she must be doing some good. i'm sure she likes and respects him cos he's trying so hard and is such a decent person and that respect will help him in itself.

There is an element of essential secrecy for him in all this and there was for me. although my mum cared deeply and fretted to find ways to help me, i felt so angry about the acne and the remarks at school that i secretly took myself off to a tanning place in London in the evenings and tried to zap the acne that way. my mum eventually found out and got worried about me getting skin cancer but not before i'd had a good few sessions and it did help a bit, but sadly it soon all came back. i earned the money by making (terribly amateur!) furry animals and selling them in a local shop where the lady put them in her window for me. just the act of secrecy and doing something that gave me hope, helped me to cope at that point in my life when still at school.

so i guess its important that DS2 has a secret life and secret ways of dealing with this, and i expect your secrecy has helped you too, till you became strong enough to trust certain people and share it with them. my DH knew very little of how i'd felt in the early days of our marriage about myself till just recently, and now says he wishes he'd known cos he could have helped by not making insensitive remarks at times. but then, he had his own issues with his extraordinary family (SO like yours, all our friends can't believe he's related to them!) and they also added to my problems. i don't think he really had the maturity at that time to grasp what i was feeling when he was trying to come to terms with the misery he himself was feeling. my mum loved him and he said often 'i never knew what it was to have a mum like that'. but sadly she died a year after we married so he didn't have her for long. his family didn't like me cos i stuck up for him and wouldn't let them put him down. the best way i can describe it is he was like a male Cinderella. if any invitations came up, even with people he had introduced his DS3 to, his mum would say, 'oh, surely you don't want my DS1'. he never gets told anything about big family decisions and his mum's oftentimes retort when he mentions something is 'oh, how did you know about that?'. it is just the most peculiar thing and something in my own family that didn't happen at all. there is also a power struggle in his family to please his mother and get brownie points and acceptance. the other 2 siblings are brilliant at it, one particularly good at sucking up, and having seen DS1 get put down all the time,i think they are making jolly sure it doesn't happen to them. there is a psychological term for this which i forget but it means that so long as one person gets picked on, the others heap on the abuse so that they themselves remain safe. this happens in school bullying too (which is where this thread began). But if you had had a sister who had skin problems and you had been free of them, and you had seen her excluded and sad, can you seriously imagine not sticking up for her and helping her? i don't think you (or i, or my DS2) could live with ourselves if we didn't. and yet these siblings of my DH are intelligent people, as presumably are your siblings, so how come they are so spineless as not to see this and do something about it? Weird isn't it? Makes no sense at all. Unless they are scared people, in which case we should maybe pity them but at the same time give them a wide berth.

there's a saying in life, 'what goes around comes around' and i've seen a lot of examples of it. i do believe that justice will be done in the end but maybe not quite how we imagine. All the little ones (and bigger ones) who are possibly going through hell at school or at home right now, will somehow get rewarded in the end for what's happened to them if nasty stuff happens, but its so important that they know they are not alone and they are not to blame or wrong. that's why i think a Mumsnet campaign would be brilliant but am not sure how one would do it.

its so good that you loved to read. DS2 is slightly dyslexic i think and DS1 certainly was and had special help. reading became more fun when DS2 read things like 'Harry Potter' which really interested him. he read technical and study books but you don't find out about life and the feelings of others in those so much. he now reads self help books a bit. i was 13 before i realised how you could escape into books. its a wonderful magical thing once you find it. i read a lot of the time now, especially in the night if i can't sleep. The book i mentioned in the last post, 'You is For Unique' is by Julia Hague. its well worth a read, specially for women with worries about their bodies in any way shape or form.

i've ordered the Alice Miller books you suggested, but one of them has a very similar title to another and i wondered if it was the same book? 'The Drama of the Gifted Child' or 'The Drama of the Child'. i ordered both anyway and will give him one if they are duplicates.

thanks for all this brill info, i'm feeling SO much better

Persimum, I think it must be worse for your DS than me, even though we have so much in common, because I never fear that I might be physically assaulted because of my looks when I'm out and I'm sure that's purely because DS is male and I'm female. But it's so wrong. How on earth can somebody feel they want to beat up another person simply because of the way that other person looks. There is something clearly very wrong with the mentality of assailant in that case. Perhaps they are reacting to some primeval instinct like animals who attack the weaker members of the pack, not that your DS is weak in any way, but he is percieved as weak probably because he lack of self confidence is sensed by these bullies.

I hope your DS will consider something like karate, I think it is a very good idea, and having some cutting retorts practised in his head for rude insensetive people. I have a few in my head but need to practise them out loud, I don't want to be caught lost for words like I usually am by people's lack of tact and sensetivity. I dread things like going to the GP. I never go about my eczema anymore as they have no solutions, but if I have to go about something else, entirely unconnected, more often than not I will get a very tactless comment from the GP about my eczema or a comment that the GP seems to think is funny but that I don't find funny at all. Do people honestly think that I find having this horrible, disfiguring eczema all over my face funny and that I will laugh along at a joke made about it? The stupidity of some people is just astonishing, and this is a GP who should surely have developed some sensetivity to people's problems since he must be dealing with them every day.

I can relate to the secrecy as well. Like you going off to secretly use a sunbed, I used to go off and secretly seek alternative therapies. I used to come home with various concotions to brew and drink and I find it amazing that my mother never once asked me where I'd been or what I was drinking. I could have killed myself as I know now that some of these alternative practitioners are unregulated and can be dangerous. But my mother never showed the slightest bit of interest or concern about what I was doing. My dad washed his hands of trying to help me in any way after I flatly refused to use the steroid creams etc that the doctor offered me. I knew they were damaging to the skin and did not provide a cure at all and I oreferred to try and find the root cause of the eczema and tackle it that way. Once I made it clear i didn't want to use steroids, my dad just left me alone to rot, he wasn't interested in supporting me with finding a treatment I felt comfortable with. I felt he just got fed up of me and my eczema and couldn't be bothered with me anymore.

You talk about your DS feeling so low he might have considered killing himself. Me too. But at least you, as his mother, had some awareness that he was feeling like this. My parents had no idea. I had even fixed a date in my mind when I would do it, but in the end I didn't go through with it. I just felt so alone with my problems. I had my parents, I was still living at home, and yet I have never felt more lonely and miserable in all my life. My mother made no attempt to even talk to me, to get to me open up. At least your mother tried to help you. Your DH saying he never knew a mother could be like yours again is something I can relate to. Not unfortunately from eg MIL being caring towards me, but just seeing and hearing and learning how other people's mothers will move heaven and earth and make huge sacrifices to help their child. My mother couldn't even simply talk to me, or listen to me. I am sure that even though talking wouldn't have cured my eczema, just being able to tell somebody who cared about how it made me feel, to share the burden a little would have meant so much to me. Surely that's what a mother is for, and that's why you should be so proud of yourself for being there for your DS2, because not every child has a real mother like that, your DH included. .

I have given up trying to understand my parents. It is futile. I might have their DNA but I am a completely different animal to them with a completely different way of doing things and I will never understand them and their ways.

The aspect of this that hurts the most is my sisters. A big part of the reason why I have pretty much cut ties with them is it just hurt me too much to see them both starting their families but not suffering in the way I did after I had my DC's. My eczema ruined my enjoyment of DD after she was born; I will never know whether I would have had PND anyway or whether it was due to the fact that my eczema was so bad after having her, when for years beforehand I had been free of it and happily enjoying life, enjoying the feeling of 'fitting' in to the world, not looking different, not getting those 'looks' and double takes. Because I have had long periods of time free of eczema I have had the experience that your DS longs for, you described it as simply being 'in the swim'. I have had that but it only makes it all the worse when I have a flare up as I know what life can be like and how good I feel when I am free of it. It just hurts too much when I see my sisters and how they are coping after having their DC's. Of course they struggle with the sleepless nights etc like we all did, but that's all they struggle with. They don't have a huge additional burden like I did and still do and it is this additional burden that impairs my enjoyment of life, every single day, to a greater or lesser degree.

Probably like your DS, when I have a flare up, my behaviour changes, I treat people differently and behave differently because I am so self conscious and I am sure I appear unfriendly and stand offish. But I'm not, I just get very shy and just want to hide away. But when I am eczema free I can really be myself and she, the eczema free me, is the person I want to be all the time, I like her. I don't like myself or my behaviour at least when I have a flare up, I become moody, grumpy, stroppy, angry, but I am angry and grumpy because of the eczema, nothing else.

Perhaps your DS feels the same. He has the real 'him' trapped inside, and he wants to 'be' the real him, but he lacks the confidence to be who he really is because of his discomfort about the way he looks. And in my case i know people react to the me who appears standoffish and I find it hard to make friends. And yet once people do finally get to know me, I can tell they like me and I just wish I could be the real me all the time, but I can't because I always feel a certain level of depression and unhappiness all the while I have eczema. Even DH doesn't really know or understand how I feel, how my eczema makes me feel angry, depressed and grumpy every single day from the minute I get up to the minute I fall asleep. It is never off my mind. Even when I am happy about other good things in my life, the happiness is always dampened a little by knowing I still have eczema, I never feel complete, unadulterated joy or happiness at things I could feel that way about if it were not for the eczema.

Perhaps your DS feels this way too. He cannot change his features drastically or at all and perhaps he constantly carries around with him the sort of feelings I have described, never able to feel truly 100% happy or relaxed because he always has some level of anxiety about the way he looks.

I really like your idea of a Mumsnet campaign am going to think some more about that and how we could pursue it.

I think the Alice Miller books you have ordered are the same, the title of her most famous book The Drama did vary a bit over time, but it's essentially the same in all it's editions. It can take a little while to get into Alice Miller's writing style, but if you persevere I am sure you will find it highly enlightening. Your DH might like to read it too, it probably has a lot of relevance to him given his parents. I have read The Drama over 20 times and each time I find something new in it, it's the only self help book one needs I think.

I just want to say thank you for taking the time to read and respond to my posts. I realise I have been keeping a lot of this stuff inside me for years, I have never felt able, until now, to talk in detail about my eczema and how it makes me feel and how it has affected every single aspect of my life, and it's so nice to finally be able to 'talk' like this in the knowledge that the person 'listening' will understand where I'm coming from. I've been on MN for a number of years now and this is the first time I have talked about all this stuff. More importantly I am 40 and have been carrying this stuff around with me, inside, for around 30 years, to finally be able to let it out is amazing. So thank you.

And thanks for the book recommendation, will order it and hopefully read it on holiday in a couple of weeks, DC's permitting!

ABitTipsy you explain it all so well. My desperation for my DS2 i almost didn't dare admit to (till this last post), but it was the terrible fear that he would not feel able to live any more, and i often used to dream that i was looking everywhere for him but it was too late, he'd gone and i had this sackful of letters for him from people who were telling him good reasons for staying, and how marvellous he was, but the post had come too late and he had gone. At the same time, i don't ever want him to suffer so much that he can't bear it, and his life is of course his own and its up to him to do with it what he feels best doing. But how terribly sad that cos of taunts from others for so many years, a life could be made to feel not worth living. its always at the back of my mind but we never discuss it these days.

Like you i had PND or something like it after DS1 was born and MIL was really tricky when she came to stay for a week or two. she was so bad that in the end we had to ask her to go home, cos she just depressed me so much. i'd had an emergency caesar and lots had gone wrong with me the baby physically, and instead of it being all happy and blissful, i was in great pain and incapacitated so she sort of took over but in a very patronising way. Afterwards one of my SIL's put it around the family that i had been ungrateful and rude to ask her to go, but i think i would have gone totally mad if i hadn't. i think in retrospect i hadn't really grieved properly for my own much loved mother who'd died 3 years before, i'd tried to keep a stiff upper lip as really there'd been no one left to talk to about it. My dad had his own problems and then a new GF abroad. i just couldn't come to terms with losing my own mum, who'd loved babies so much and with whom i'm sure i would have had so much fun with the first one. i felt terribly alone with no one on my own mental wavelength. The Health Visitor was nice though and we became good pals over the ensuing years and she was great for my DSs.

Like yours, my SIL's had perfect pregnancies whilst i had miscarriages and caesars and endless struggles to get our 2 DS's. Selfishly, i do love babies and looked forward to grandchildren to play with, but DS2 says he's not having any cos he doesn't want them to suffer as he has.

i've never looked at MN before but was so worried about DS2 just recently that i felt i must talk to someone, and it has been so helpful. i'm so glad you feel the same. i used to go to a counsellor for myself, and he was good but his message was always, 'you have to let DS2 go', which i gladly try to do but he is still my child and when he calls me and is suffering, how do i let him go? Do i just hang up the phone after 10 mins or do i keep reasoning and trying to help till he's ready to hang up? 'Be proactive not reactive', was another piece of advice, and this i have really tried to do. However my mind always has him at the back of it, not quite sure if there was more i could have said that would have helped, and not quite sure if he would be alive next morning, so i'd get through the night with a terrible tight feeling in the chest. i'm so sorry you felt life was so bad at times that it was not worth going on but i'm so glad you bravely came through as you explain these feelings so well and thus will help others so much.

i can relate too to what you said about steroid creams, you were so right to leave them alone. Have you ever read anything by Leslie Kenton, she is brilliant on research for all ailments and there is something she recommended in one of her books called 'The Gel' which is homeopathic and therapeutic and wonderful for all skin problems, its a clear cesium gel and sulphur and other things, very soothing and really wonderful. i'm sure one can find it on Google, but if not, i'll find the ordering number. i've used it for years and its been very helpful i think. Just a thought, in case it would help eczema too. it certainly couldn't hurt it i wouldn't think.

My DH will have benefited a lot from all you've said too and he'll read the Alice Miller book. i'll give the duplicate to DS2. Looks like you and i will both be on holiday soon so maybe this thread will end if we are the only two contributing, i don't know what happens about that. Maybe others will join in to keep it going, maybe not. Maybe you can start another thread on your return along similar lines? We'll both have read more books by then anyway! As to a campaign idea, i'm not sure how we'd do it or whether there's actually even a demand for it, but like you say, it needs thinking about. i'd be scared in case my DS2 read about himself so it would have to be maybe set out differently from another thread and with no reference to him.

I echo what you say about thanks for reading and responding so wonderfully. it will be interesting to see whether the sharing of ideas helps the eczema at all, i guess only time will tell. 30 years is a long time for you to have been carrying these feelings, its as long as my DS2 has lived. i'm a good bit older than you but still hope for peace of mind for the rest of my time, and happiness from seeing DS2 happy at last. i really do begin to feel that there is hope for that! So thanks again.

P.S. - just checked 'The Gel' on Google, its listed under 'Leslie Kenton' THE GEL, Quantum Evolution (for ordering), and it tells you a bit about the contents, in case you want to try it ABitT

Hey thanks Persimum, for saying I explain it well, I always think I am rambling and nobody will understand me.

Your DS2 is so lucky to have you, although I'm sure he doesn't realise it. You are aware of how he feels and he can talk to you. You didn't just leave him to cope with his issues alone even though his issues brought back painful childhood memories for you. It sounds so simple but I didn't have this basic thing from my mother and I will never forgive her for that. Her weakness, selfishness and cowardice. I have nothing but contempt for her.

Your dream is so sad. It must be your deepest darkest fears coming to life as a dream. I think people only take their own life when they feel utterly desolate, depressed and despondent, with no hope left whatsover. Your DS2 does not sound like this from what you have described, he feels angry at the way he is/has been treated and anger is good. It's energising and if channelled constructively can bring about positive change.

I'm sorry to hear about your problems with your MIL after you had DS1. Your MIL sounds toxic tbh, based on the way she has treated you and your DH. A few more book recommendations if you feel the need Toxic In Laws by Susan Forward, me and DH read it and even he was willing to admit it described his parents perfectly.

I can completely relate to how you really missed your mother after you had DS1. Post birth I think is the one time even the most independent of women want and need their own mother. My mother was around after I had DD. She was helpful in a practical way, but she wasn't really there to help me she was just desperate to get her hands on her first grandchild. She doted on DD when she born but completely ignored me and the state I was in. As I have said (too many times I am beginning to feel, hope you're not bored of me droning on) my eczema flared up horrendously after DD was born, on my face and everywhere, the absolute worst it has ever been. I was feel desperate inside. I was worried about DH's reaction to the eczema as in all the time he had known me, I had not had a flare up and was pretty much clear of eczema and we hadn't really talked about it. I know I should have told him and I will feel bad and guilty about that forever. I was just enjoying feeling 'normal' and just didn't want to talk about it, not to DH, not to anybody. I was almost pretending to myself more than anyone else that I didn't have this horrible condition and I had been clear of it for a while and I hoped it had just gone away forever.

I was worried about what DH's family would think when they came to see us a couple of weeks later and I pretended I was sleeping and didn't get out of bed when they came. DH's mother took offence and I found out later she had held a grudge against me for years about that incident. But I was right to be worried about her reaction as later on she was absolutely vile to me about my skin. All she is worried about is keeping up appearances and what other people might think and say if they knew or saw that her DIL had such an awful case of eczema. Having any sympathy for my feelings and how it was making me feel, just when I was already stressed out with my first baby, was the very last thing on her mind. And my own mother was just the same. She used to waltz in to our flat, wish me a cursory "Hi, alright?" and without waiting for my reply, go over to DD and gush over DD. I was at rock bottom and she didn't even notice, my own mother.

I'm glad you sought help from a counsellor for yourself. I am a firm believer in getting things out and not bottling it all up like I had to. Re the advice to let your DS2 go, I think he must mean to love your DS2 which you obviously do, but without being 'attached' to him. It's a very difficult concept to explain, I hope Alice Miller will help you in that respect.

Re the steroid creams, although I refused to use them many years ago, I had to use them with the current flare up because it was so bad. I am not using them anymore, but I am worried about them causing permanent damage, but at the same time, I really had no choice, it was just so bad. Another problem to lay at my parents' door, not that they would ever accept any responsibility or even admit to how badly they treated me.

I'm happy your DH has been helped in some way by me and very glad he will read Alice Miller, and please have patience with her writing style, it might take you a couple of go's before you begin to really grasp what she is saying.

Thanks for the Gel recommendation, will look it up.

And being able to finally open up about all the issues my eczema has caused for me has most definately helped. Every time I let go of some of the stuff bottled up inside my eczema improves.

I have a feeling that others may feel it's 'too late' to join in with this thread, it has turned into a one to one chat! I would like to keep in touch somehow, especially as like you said, we are both going to be away soon and the thread will probably die . Please feel free to put a 'call' out for me on Chat if the thread has died after our holidays, or if you want you can mail me on pinklemonade03 @ gmail com. I must admit I don't check that particular email account too often but I do check it every now and then, so I will get back to you if you mail me on there and we can start another thread on MN perhaps.

But, we're not going away just yet so I'm still around for a little while.