How to deal with damage when other kids tell yours they are ugly and they lose self esteem?

[Persimum]

Any mums out there who have to keep trying to make their kids feel better when they lose confidence at school cos others tell them they dont fit in cos they dont look good enough?

Why do some kids cope and others dont?
How do mums cope? Any tried and tested ideas please that work. im finding this a big worry for me and for offspring. School itself is no help and nothing they can do anyway I know it has to come from the child but child doesn't believe anyone but the ones who say they look rubbish. Breaks your heart to watch it, let alone totally frustrating.

ABitTipsy as we seem to have started a new sheet in the MN line-up, just wanted to make sure you see the 3 posts i added before this last one, otherwise this last one won't make sense. As I'm so new to this MNetting thing, i don't know if you will automatically see them. Sorry if this appears daft :)

Hello Persimum, have been busy all day with the DC's, have only just logged on now.

I would be over the moon to keep in touch like you say and have girly chats as well as the 'deeper' stuff, am so glad you would like to do the same! I understand you wanting to ensure your DS2 doesn't accidentally read your posts/emails, so we can chat on here until you are able to set up your own email account. I have put this thread on my 'watch' list so I will be able to revive it once I'm back from hols. You could put it on your watch list too. Just go to the top of the thread on and click on 'Watch this thread'. The thread will then go into your watch list and once we're both back from hols we can go to Threads I'm Watching (at the top of the page) and it should be there and we can continue chatting on this thread. And I will start the new thread once I'm back from hols as well.

Am glad you like the Toxic In Laws, book, I also couldn't put it down. It explains things so well, it's as if the author actually knows you and your family. Don't worry about the ironing, it will happily wait til you get round to it! When I read it, I wished I had come across it years before, it would have made things so much easier for me and DH. Instead we somehow muddled our way through the nightmare situation his mother had caused for me by her insensetivity and downright cruelty and ended up reading the book almost 'after the event' when we had resolved things with his mother. (When I say resolved, DH told her she had been a bully and I said I would have nothing more to do with her until she apologised which she hasn't, so I have no contact with her anymore which I am more than happy about).

I didn't manage a very early night last night, DH and I were up chatting for a bit, but despite that I seemed to sleep like a log and woke up feeling well rested and refreshed, something I haven't felt in literally years. I usually wake up feeling like I haven't slept at all and need at least another 8 hours .

I am absolutely sure that our 'chats, have helped hugely in my sleeping better. You are honestly the first person I have opened up to in this way, especially about my eczema, and it must surely have been good for my mind and body to let out this stuff that has been bottled up for years. Like I keep saying, I feel we are on the same wavelength in many ways and it's so nice to finally be able to talk to somebody who understands.

Thank you for your input wrt the letter to my parents. I suppose I should have mentioned the 'money' before. Even though logically I think I do deserve the money, I still feel slightly that I am going against my principles in accepting money from my abuser. But then even criminals do sometimes have to pay compensation to their victims so perhaps this is not really any different to that. I am a bit wary of my dad though and not sure if i totally trust him. I am worried we could accept the money and base our financial plans on having that money and it could go horribly wrong if my dad suddenly decides not to pay.

I think I am not actually going to mention in the letter about how I feel that the money is compensation for the abuse and it's after effects like my eczema. I think perhaps I just had a strong need to tell somebody how i felt and now that I have told you and you didn't think I was mad, I don't feel the need to tell my parents. I will just keep the letter factual and unemotional but I will say that if he reneges on his offer he will cause difficulties for us and potentially jeoparise the DC's education. I will just have to hope that he has enough of a conscience that he would not do anything to aversely affect my DC's.

I LOVE your idea of getting the money in the bank and then writing another letter telling them what I really think about it all. Very tempting indeed. But you are absolutely right about keeping the first letter factual and unemotional as you say, there's no point in stirring things up at the moment.

Yes, the money was offered via my sister as there is no contact between me and my dad. But, I have stopped contact with my sisters too recently, I felt I just needed to do that to preserve myself and my dignity; I was going through that nerve-wracking thing you have mentioned every time I eg texted them and then was waiting for a reply, so I stopped the whole thing, decided no amount of money was worth that amount of stress. DH was great, just said not to worry and we'd manage fine without my dad's money. But it niggled me as my sisters had been given the money and it was just not fair that I should not get the same, particularly as I had had such a tough time of it with my parents. Anyway, it was DD's birthday recently and my sister sent a card and my dad had put a letter inside the envelope writing about the money he was offering.

So the letter I have been thinking about is in response to my dad's recent letter. His was very factual, just talking about the money and the various options about how he could transfer it to us, it would have to be paid in instalments over 4 years until DD starts secondary school.

Thank you so much for the lovely way you have described my problem with my skin. I do try and always believe that one day the eczema will clear up completely, some days I suppose I believe it more strongly than others. I just feel sad that every day that goes by whilst I still have it is another day lost when I am not living my life to the full and another day lost that I can never get back. ALready so many years have been lost in this way and I just want my life back, to be able to live it feeling unburdened, and just well, normal. I don't want to look amazing, just 'normal', I don't want to stand out and look different to everybody else.

Thank you so much for your positive words of encouragement. It helps so much to read them. I feel like you are sending positive healing vibes my way, have never felt that way before.

It's wonderful that you made some good friends with the mums at your DC's school. I'm sure they are as kind, and giving and caring as you. I hope some of aquaintances I currently have do turn out to be long term friendships. I realise I am having to learn how to make friends almost for the first time. I do have friends that I have known for years, going back to university days, but we don't have too much in common these days as most of them are still single and child free. I think in the past, other people have picked me to be their friend for their own reasons, and it was not necessarily a friendship that benefitted me as much as them. I think my low self esteem and low self confidence must have been apparent even though I tried to hide it with a mask of confidence and the 'friends' picked me so they could feel superior and dominant and better when standing next to me. That's not to say all my friends were like this, but I feel I am only just discovering who I really am and therefore what sort of person I would choose as a friend.

I can understand how your DS feels about making plans in advance and then feeling committed and stressed as the day/date approaches. I am exactly the same and it's frustrating as I like socialising and chatting, but get very stressed about social situations, especially big groups of people who I don't know very well. I have learnt to work 'with' who I actually *am^ rather than trying to be somebody I am not and I just try and go only to small group things or arrange coffees with other mums on a one to one and try not to feel bad that I am not the sort of person who can walk into a group and confidently tell jokes and anecdotes and chat easily to strangers.

I haven't forgotten about the retreats I mentioned, I just haven't had the time to spend looking them up, but I should have more time at the weekend when DH is about to mind the DC's. You might have already gone on your hols by the time I post some links but they'll be there for when you get back.

Thank you again for your kindness and advice, it is much appreciated.

Just a bit more. Wrt your accepting the insurance policies from your MIL, it's easy to say with hindsight what might have been a better option for you and your family. But of course at the time, you were doing what you thought was best, and you cannot blame yourself at all for that. You do not seem at all the sort of person who makes serious decisions lightly and thoughtlessly, I'm sure you think carefully about such things and you did what you thought was best. And you have collected insights along the way. There are some people who could live to 100 and still have developed not an ounce of insight. You are far more enlightened than most and you should be proud of yourself for the way you are there for your DS2 and your DH and no doubt your DS1, even though he does not realise, at the moment, what he has in you.

ABitTipsy you do cheer me up, just read your post tonight and so grateful to have it. Just had awful long sad call on phone from DS2 about his feeling confused, people stared at him in Waitrose and at the checkout the young girl was unpleasant and then said 'byeee' in what he felt was a derogatory way. I listened and tried to help but what i say really is no good, it just passes a few more moments for him. I try to rationalise but i know i'm not the best person to be trying to do this stuff as i myself have felt similar feelings to him, and i sort of wish i could hypnotise him down the telephone wire, but i think we need a miracle from somewhere, somehow. Sorry.

We'd hoped he and GF would come on holiday with us, got a nice little house to rent by sea, and idea was he would sail with his dad. But he feels he can't go cos of pressure of work, and i'm not sure if its quite that but am not pressing anything. Tried to arrange something for October, knowing how he loves Devon by the sea, but he feels unable to commit, and i do understand. His dad misses his company so much and they could be having so much fun together. its just like you say about your resenting all the wasted years. He's measured his eyes and they are too wide apart, and people have told him that, he says, for years, at school, and uni, and even at work. I just don't know what to do or say. Its such a comfort to know that you understand him and me. His poor dad just looks nonplussed and gets irritated, but none of this is DS2's fault, or ours, its just insensitive people interacting in an insensitive world.

I think you've got it just right about the letter to your dad. Just avoid dumping blame on them at the moment, get the money and make your case, but keep the moral high ground and then you can't worry about any shots being fired back at you. From what you say, i don't think they will be 'big' enough to accept blame, well, not right now anyway. We took the insurance policies cos if we didn't, (ie if we didn't do private education) i don't think we would have got any cash at all, thinking back about it. I think it was a thing where FIL set it against tax or death duties or something. I forget now,my DH would know. With the world being so uncertain at present, i would think anything you can tuck away as a safety net is well worth having. Privately you can say to yourself 'yes, they owe me this' but i just don't think they have the insight yet to see that. Its not to say they never will, but maybe best to go carefully with them.

I'm so glad you are sleeping better, i am too. I used to wake at 3 am and not get to sleep again, but recently i haven't. So, well done both of us! I'll do what you said about the Watch thing, and am most grateful about the future links for retreats etc.

I think we shall have a lot of fun being friends and exchanging thoughts and ideas. I think i've been so lucky that you responded to my first post, and you've helped me feel so much less worried and desperate about DS2. I'll get on and sort out the email thing, and will watch the thread in the meantime. I hope to add something tomorrow, but it may be short due to packing and list making and all that. I just hate going away, i get worried about leaving things behind and stressed about DS2, but GF's mum and dad are kind and will keep in touch with him and call us if worried. I'm usually OK when i get there, but i hate transferring from place to place. Silly really, but its just me. My DH finds it all a great adventure, i wish i did! Sleep well and thanks for all your encouragement and the lovely things you said, you give me courage to keep trucking along :)

Woke early and wondering now if i still ought to go or ought to stay to be home in case DS2 needs me? DH could go on own and sail with friends. Wondering if to leave message on DS2's counsellor's voice mail telling her we are worried about leaving him alone, but then thinking, well, she isn't really that effective and she will just have a go at him about calling me. Then he will feel bad about doing that so he will try not to, and that's worse cos the lines of communication will be down and he needs to feel we are there for him to chat to whenever, even if what we say doesn't solve any problems. Guess we can chat wherever we are. Did that all through last holiday last year but when at a distance one feels more worried somehow. Can't hug etc if needed. Oh dear. Sorry, this sounds so pathetic.

I guess a lot of people would say oh for goodness sake grow up, and let him grow up too. but it isn't quite like that. If they knew him they'd know how hard he's tried but how much he gets hurt by these comments he gets, and the trouble is, they go back such a long way. Which is where this thread started, a little kid being systematically tormented at school and not being able to handle it, can end up like this all these years later if it isn't nipped in the bud early on. And also if they don't have a warm and supportive extended family of grandparents, cousins etc. They need a sense of being loved and belonging, and they need good friends at school who stand by them.

I so understand what you say about your family, and thankfully you've researched and made sure you know so much more than i did at your age, so i feel sure your DCs will be fine. You've got away from the put downs from immediate family so they will not see that happening to you, whereas we went battling on and hoping, and our DSs must have got the feeling that their parents were considered weak by the grandparents etc. In the Toxic InLaws book i can see clearly now how we ought to have stood up to them at the outset, but we had the jellyfish situation (i'm sure you'll remember that bit :)) and we just went on and on putting up with all the rubbish hoping things would change. When we get home from hols i think we ought to tackle them head on, but we'll have to see how brave DH feels. His MIL is steaming towards the 100 so maybe its a bit late. If we say something, she may not manage to achieve the Queen's telegram as the shock may be too great! (DH is a lot older than me, by the way :)) Sorry about all this, i think i'm just having a bad couple of days but i'm sure it will improve soon.

PS - correction, i mean DH's mother, who is my MIL is steaming towards the 100. Funny you should mention getting to a hundred upthread, very appropriate really. A real matriarch, this MIL, so in control of everything even now, unbelievable really, but there is a saying (wicked of me to mention) which says that the good go early :)

DH is going to see DS2 tonight to deliver some stuff and collect some sailing kit we lent him from the last time he and GF went off to the sea. DS2 says he feels great out on the water in his boat, away from everything, pressures etc. Can even sunbathe so his skin gets some sun but no one near enough to see the scars. I know i should go with DH tonight but wonder if i've got the courage, i just get so exhausted trying to convince DS2 that he looks fine. Like you he says he just wants to look normal. To me and his dad, that's exactly how he does look. But he says i'm just saying that, and i would wouldn't i, cos i'm his mother.

DH has taken a day's holiday today to get ready, and we were chatting over lunch. He says the business with his hostile relatives makes him feel as though we are in a little covered wagon, with DS2 hiding underneath it, and lots of red indians are riding round and round with flaming arrows which they keep firing at us and we don't know where the next one is coming from, and also where to keep getting more buckets of water from! There has been no response from that relative i mentioned, and so either the email didn't get there, or she's been nobbled. He reckons the latter. i'm still trying to keep optimistic. Either way, it doesn't matter, what's another flaming arrow anyway, maybe we should start a war dance with a baseball bat! :)

Persimum, hello, another busy day with the DC's and friends, bedtime soon for them, .

It's so awful when you can't go about your day to day life without it causing stress and upset. I can relate to your DS2's experience in Waitrose. The trouble is I think I am so paranoid that even if somebody glances at me or says something a bit weirdly in ways that are actually normal for that person and in actual fact the glance was part of normal public interaction, I still feel as if it's because I look weird/strange/unusual and it makes me nervous and even more paranoid probably attracting even more unwanted attention to myself. I have to say online shopping has been a godsend for me as I can nearly avoid going to the shops completely, and I only go when absolutely necessary eg buying shoes for the DC's.

I can understand how difficult it is for you to know what to say to him. You have probably said everything possible over the years and he still is not reassured and he has a valid point to some degree I suppose when he says you would say he looks fine because you are his mother. He most likely needs an objective, unrelated person to tell him he looks fine, even handsome, for him to start believing it for himself. Is there any way you could 'engineer' a situation like this?

Re your feeling anxious about going on holiday, again it's a balance between your own needs, your DH's and your DS2's. If your DS2 was at crisis point then it would probably be best to be around for him but from what you've said he sounds upset about things, but not as if he is spiralling downwards. But only you know all the details, I only have a snapshot, so you are of course best placed to decide and I am sure you will make the best decision all round. But, from my pov, it is something I can only dream about or imagine. ie my mother caring enough about me that she would consider not going on holiday. As I've said already, there were many times when I was stil fairly young, a teenager, when my eczema was terrible, and I know my mother never gave a second's thought as to whether she should forgoe a social occasion never mine a holiday, for my sake. She would never have considered whether I was feeling strong enough to go to such an occasion, looking the way I did, being surrounded by people who were likely to look and stare or who just looked normal and pretty and made me feel terrible about myself even if they didn't look and stare.

I really like hearing about how you feel and your thoughts and ideas about how to help your DS2. It confirms what I always thought but perhaps never had any proof of, that a mother needs to do more than just feed and clothe her children, in order to fulfill her role as mother. There are so many more, much harder tasks to tackle and you are not shying away from the issues your DS2 is facing, you are always there for him, not just to share in his successes but to help him during his down times. You are how I imagine a mother should be, but I can only imagine it, I have no experience of it for myself. And with my DC's I can only try to be the mother I have in my imagination, and it is much harder than if I had had a proper role model to follow.

So I'm so glad I am helping you in some way, but you are also helping me, just getting to know you through our chats on here, it's as if the imaginery mother in my head has come to life! And I realise I did not have unrealistic expectations of what I could have expected from my own mother, because you are doing for your DS2 exactly what I wanted from my own mother, so it is possible, I was right.

I agree with you about how it is so very hard for a child who is bullied and tormented from a young age, to just 'grow out of it' or something. If a child's self confidence and self esteem is knocked and damaged when he is at a very young and fragile age and this continues for years, as he grows up, his view of the world and himself is shaped by those early experiences and it becomes very hard, to change those views later on. But, it's not impossible. I grew up being told I was lazy, horrible, not as good as my sisters by my parents and I did have very low self confidence and self esteem even though I hid it well behind a mask of confidence. But underneath the mask there was nothing. It was like I was just a shell without a real person inside. But over the past 4 years, with a lot of very hard work on myself, help from therapists and reading some amazing books, I have re-built my self confidence and self esteem and discovered who I really am and I am not the person my parents told me I was for all those years, but it took me a long time to finally reject and discard all the false messages they had been feeding me about myself. And so I believe your DS2 can, one day, re-build his 'inner core' like I did, the inner core that was damaged but not destroyed by the nasty bullies he had the misfortune to encounter early on.

In my case, the trigger that led to my recovery and healing from the abuse I suffered was having my DC's. From what I've read there is often a trigger or even which acts as a catalyst, which is different for different people, which then leads on to big changes. I know this sounds awful but perhaps your DS2 has to reach absolute rock bottom before he can decide he has had enough of living like this and choose to make changes. And there really is nothing you can do to instigate this change, it has to come from within himself. But you know that already and I can absolutely see how hard it is on you whilst you provide constant support. But be proud of yourself for doing what you are doing. Don't assume it's just what every mother would do because it isn't. Perhaps your DH would vouch for that as well.

Don't feel bad about how you handled things with your MIL, putting up with things and hoping things would change. It's what we all do. I did it for years with my family. It would be ideal if we all realised as early on as possible the truth of the situation but that's not the way it works. But at least you do now know the truth and can see the family dynamics clearly, are developing more and more insight as time goes by, many people never take even the first step towards developing insight and self awareness and those are the ones I really feel sorry for, and their DC's.

Thank you for your advice about the letter to my dad. I think you are spot on. I will do the letter as soon as I have the chance, DH is on holiday from next week so he can mind the DC's so I can have some time undisturbed to write it. I will let you know the response I get.

I was able to do a quick search and found the following retreat which is along the lines of what I was thinking for your DS2. It might not be quite right, but I will have a proper search at the weekend when I have more time.
breakthrough-retreats.co.uk/what-we-do/transpersonal-psychotherapy/phobias/

And I also think it will be lovely to be friends and chat about all sorts, gives me a warm glow to think about it!

Am feeling much better today, the exhaustion has gone and I don't feel as if I want to burst into tears at the drop of a hat! Honestly hormones, who'd have them?!

Hormones are the pits! they really are :). I used to find Vitamin B6 was quite effective to even things up a bit. I think my mum, me and probably DS2 are very up and down with these wretched hormones, but once i hit 50 it was amazing how much better i felt. I'm so glad you are feeling better today, its like the sun coming out isn't it, after a storm, when the hormones settle down again :)

DH has gone to see DS2 tonight. I've done the packing. I did have two more chats on the phone with DS2 and he does sound a bit more together and will call if he wants to, so i think i will carry on as planned.

The retreat idea sounds ideal and i'll tell him when we get home, face to face. Thank you so much for the link.

For the mothering thing, I think its maybe a matter of luck how maternal one feels towards one's DCs, and maybe we learn that from our own mother or maybe not. What was your mum's mum like, i wonder? Was your mum warm and maternal with the sisters but just not with you? DH's mum is not a mumsy sort of mum but she does seem to open up like a flower when his siblings are around, but closes snap shut when he's there, and it really hurts. My mum just adored babies and told her mum (when she was quite little) 'oh, i'm not going to bother getting married, i'll just have lots of babies!' You can just imagine the shock and horror :) back in about 1922! So she was very maternal with me, and it was easy then for me to be so with DS1 and 2. I can so well understand that you found having your DCs a wonderful release from all the past unhappiness and way of moving forwards. I think you sound a really great mum and that's so wonderful cos you've done it all from the heart. I so agree that he needs something to radically change in his life like that.

I also know what you mean about hitting rock bottom. i think he did already do that some years back and is on the slow climb up, but i know he finds it desperately slow and with lots of setbacks. I tell him it will all work in the end and he tells me i've been saying that forever! :)

My DH has been a very good father. His dad used to shout and humiliate him and he was determined that his own DSs would not fear him like he feared his dad. Again, this was something, like you, that he did from the heart, just knowing what he did not want to be, and working from that. He is very quiet and thoughtful. I think though he feels like you said about being a shell, and he doesn't seem to feel he has any power against his family's rejection sometimes, which is almost as though he's been brainwashed.

Parenting is such an important thing isn't it, lives can be so enhanced with love and so hampered without it, but in the end, its like sunflowers, they always try to turn to find the sun. Everyone needs love and can give it if they really want to, but there has to be an awareness there. Sadly maybe your mum just had some deep problem and you have suffered so unfairly because of it, but she doesn't seem to have any awareness at all and long term this will be a great loss to her. Whereas, by some miracle, you will have overcome her inadequacy and blossomed.

Well, this will be my last post till we pick up the thread again, but i am so looking forward to the chats and the fun when i get back, like you said. I'm glowing already. :)
Good luck with the letter, glad you've got some time to yourself to do it slowly. I'll be reading some more AM and some Toxic InLaw stuff whist you are doing that and your diary, so we've each got our homework to do! Have a really lovely holiday when you go.

Hi Persimum, just want to wish you a lovely, relaxing holiday, and I look forward to hearing all about it once we're both back.

Thanks so much ABitTipsy, the weather doesn't look great but i've packed so many books and CDs and DVDs that i may not notice. Not till i have to go out and crew in DS2's place, which isn't my particular 'thing' but i'll have to do my best for the skipper, I'm better at weaving nets and that kind of thing :) but he doesn't need any as we don't fish.
DS2 seemed chirpier and will keep in touch with us if he feels the need.
Look after yourself and keep monitoring progress. Things are improving by the day, all round. All news on our return! :)

Hi, you may have already left for your holiday, but I'll reply to your post anyway.

I'm pleased to hear your DS2 is sounding better. I hope perhaps that if you are feeling 'lighter' and more positive because we have been chatting and you have been able to get things off your chest, including the things you were most worried about, you will pass on your positivity to your DS2 and he will also feel somehow 'lighter' and a bit more hopeful about things.

I am so struck as to how, no matter how hard you find it to give constant support to your DS2, you are not giving up and washing your hands of him, leaving him to struggle on alone. It's all so different to my own experience. My mother just tried to ignore the fact that I had a problem and never talked about it with me or let me talk about it with her. My dad did once go with me to the doctor but the doctor could only offer steroid creams which I didn't want to use and so my dad got annoyed with me and washed his hands of me. So after that I was on my own, not that it was any different to usual, I have been on my own for as long as I can remember, despite having my parents and sisters around me.

My mother sounds just like your DH's. She was a different person around my sisters, she would transform into a loving, caring, communicative, interested mother. I tried for years to be a good daughter, always hoping one day she would change and love me. But she never did and eventually I gave up.

She was the youngest child in a big family and she has never really talked about her mother. She used to mention her dad a few times and she obviously liked him. Her parents died when I was very young and I never knew them. But the impression I get is that perhaps she was neglected by her own mother and she somehow took it out on me. I think she never bonded with me, whereas she bonded instantly with my 2 sisters and it seemed she was quite content to allow me to grow ever more distant from her whilst she and my sisters grew closer and closer.

I know she was bullied and dominated by my dad and she lacked confidence and was scared of him. He himself was bullied by his dad who I knew was a very angry, aggressive man and he took it out on my mother and then me. I am sure my dad has a mental illness although he thinks it is everybody else with the problem and not him. But there is so much more to it all than the few details I have mentioned, it would take a book to tell the wnole story and it is something I would love to write, if only for my own benefit if nothing else, but time is never on my side. And I also feel I do not yet know how my story ends. I still have the eczema, although it is improving almost daily, and there are still those 'gaps' in my life that I would like to fill. So I think my story is still unfolding and perhaps I should wait a while before I try and write that book.

I was wondering whether you have siblings? And if so do you see them and do you have a good relationship with them? Do you work? What sort of things do you enjoy doing?

It's so lovely of you to say I sound like a good mum. I am doing things like your DH. I know what I don't want to do and so far, on the whole, I think I am succeeding in not following my parents' example. And luckily DH is from a largely 'functional' family (although they have their little issues like every family but there was definately no abuse or neglect involved) and so he is a very grounded, solid sort of person, very good for the DC's as I have been on a emotional rollercoaster for the past few years and have not always been the sort of parent I would like to be.

I am glad to hear you say you felt better once you were 50 and presumably your hormones settled down? I must admit I am looking forward to when I no longer feel dreadful once a month, exhausted, emotional, grumpy etc. Thanks for the tip about vit B6, will give that a go. DH has taken to marking on his calender when I am likely to go 'funny' for a few days, I do feel sorry for him, he bears the brunt of it all really.

I went to an eczema support group recently, for the first time. I'm glad I'm feeling so much stronger these days as the lady who runs the group was not particularly 'supportive', more of a bully in fact. She didn't bully me but she was distinctly bullying towards a poor young man who came to the group who was obviously in a very bad place, both physically and emotionally, and she showed very little respect for his wishes and feelings. I felt very uncomfortable but felt unable to say or do anything as I was so new to the group. I hope she didn't put him off attending again. But it opened my eyes to the fact that no matter what title somebody has, it does not mean they will live up to it. One has to be alert to the fact that bullies are everywhere, even people who are in the 'caring' professions such as doctors and nurses etc can be bullying, unempathetic types.

Of course by the same token, the decent, kind, caring people of this world can also be found everywhere, but somehow they usually, but not always of course, tend to be the quieter ones and it takes a bit more effort to notice them and seek them out.

I am now going to try and write that letter to my dad. I have been putting it off all morning. But sticking to factual things is definately the way to go. I just have to stop delaying and just get on with it.

Here's another retreat that sounds lovely, I think it was one of the one's I was considering going to, I still might try and get away for a weekend if I can.

www.thenurturingretreatplace.co.uk/links.php

Hello Persimum, just wanted to say welcome home and hope you had a lovely holiday. Look forward to catching up on your news once we're back in a week's time.

Hope you don't mind, I just wanted to mention something that happened a few days ago. I met a friend and she told me about a man she is seeing who has a skin condition. Not eczema, something else, and she said she liked him but was worried about getting married and having children who might have inherited his condition. I didn't say anything to her, but afterwards I felt really upset by what she had said. By her reasoning, DH wouldn't have married me in case our children inherited my eczema. (Which they did but seem to have grown out of it).

I was quite shocked that my friend holds these views as I have known her for a long time and she has never come across as somebody who thinks this way. I felt quite upset for a few days I think because she reminded me about how my parents think, that I was an inferior person (compared to my sisters) because of my eczema. My dad told me I would have to marry anybody who would have me because I have this condition whereas my sisters could be more choosy and deserved better men than me because they didn't have my condition. I can't believe my friend thinks this way, I feel like distancing myself from her, but we have been friends for so long, it would be hard. And perhaps I am being unreasonable, she is entitled to her views and they don't affect me directly, she has always been a good friend, during eczema flare ups as well, compared to other 'friends' who seem to fade away at times when my eczema has been really bad.

Anyway, I would value your thoughts on this, I can't imagine not seeing much of this friend, we go back such a long way. And she is a lovely person in so many ways, that is why her view on this was such a shock to me.

Back again and reading this, can well understand why you'd be upset about the friend saying what she did. this is just the kind of thing that my DS2 fears. This whole thing about inheritance of problems is obviously something people do think about, but we all carry something with us which maybe we'd rather we didn't, but if you love someone, who cares what their skin is like, its personality that counts always. If you are reckoning up whether they are worth loving cos they've got a bit of a problem, then you've got things mixed up in the psyche somewhere.

You'll be away now and not seeing this i guess, but i just thought i'd add a bit anyway ready for your return which i guess will be end of the week.

interesting about your mum, it sounds like she didn't have much of a relationship with her own mum, neither did my MIL. I don't have any siblings, which does make things pretty hard sometimes, or maybe it doesn't cos it would depend on how supportive or otherwise they were, I guess. Your dad does indeed sound very mixed up, saying what he did about you was so cruel and unfeeling which must surely indicate that he is not reacting normally.

Back to your friend, well, no, I wouldn't cut her off etc, i'd just think that she relaxed with you and was honest about her feelings probably without thinking, and maybe if you felt able later, you could gently say that the character of a person is so important and the skin just a little coating which means nothing except it is hard for the person inside to cope with if it isn't perceived as being like other people's. But that means they deserve even more support and will be much more understanding of the worries of others as they've carried this themselves. Also skin can always heal, it is amazing how fast it repairs itself, given the right conditions. its quite magical how it does. so even if the children inherited it, there will always be ways of healing it and helping it and as each year passes we learn more and more about healing skin and other conditions when needed. Its his nice personality that its important they benefit from.

Many thanks too for the further info on the retreat places, which i'll follow up. More soon, and welcome home when you get there :)

P.S. Regarding your DCs inheriting eczema, i know that little children often get eczema, mine certainly did, and gradually it settles down. I think maybe lots of us have immune systems that get disturbed later, whatever, and the body manifests these things. Maybe its like a little alarm call. What we need to find is the 'golden key' to switching yours off, and i've been reading a lot whilst away, both physical things and psychological things, and have some ideas. You may know them all already but it will be good to share them anyway when you have some time.

Hope you come home refreshed and not too sad that the holiday is over. We returned to lots of rain so it wasn't so bad coming back, except that the slugs got our lettuces. :)

Hi, popping back to see if you are back and writing again. Re-read your very interesting post about your parents' history and the whole picture makes total sense and has such parallels with my DH and family.

I also understand what you say about maybe its too soon to do the whole book as there is more to come, more good things i feel sure, which will make it a really inspiring self help book.

I giggled about your DH marking the calendar, i think mine used to do that too. I think lots of men do. The hormone thing is a very tricky thing to cope with, i used to read loads of books on that too, trying to understand. The problem of course is that when you feel terrible, its like you are taken over and almost someone else, and that's the worst time for someone to try to reason it out with you, so the poor men get snarled at, but it isn't really you doing the snarling, its the wretched hormone imbalance. I guess all you can do is try to notice the calendar too and avoid as much stress at that time as possible to give yourself the best chance of getting through it as calmly as poss. Also i read somewhere that the more you resist something, the worse it gets, so if the awful feelings come (like you are going to explode and everything seems to wind you up), just sort of bask in it and keep telling yourself that it will pass, but whilst its there, you will just ride with it and let it do its worst. Sounds like you have a good DH as i do, we are so lucky. Tell him it will be so worth it in the end, that he will be rewarded for his insight etc. Try to smile bravely through it and see the funny side, although i know that's one of the hardest things to do. Its easy for me to dish out advice now, when i don't have the problem any more, but i do remember how ghastly it was and how unreasonable i used to get. a bit like a little kid who is overtired and furious and nothing anyone does is right for them, and then they feel worse cos they know they are behaving badly and they just want to smash the entire world up. As to the DCs, well, i guess you have to try to not let them get yelled at, and so make a pact with DH that he will understand and try to smooth things through cos you really can't help this thing that takes you over.

Leslie Kenton's book 'Passage to Power' is quite good on natural remedies, also Dr Katherina Dalton wrote well about B6 and the imbalances of hormones etc. I will try and find the title. That one helped me a lot.

Anyway, enough for now. More when you are back. (Hope i'm looking in the right place for you!) :)

Hello Persimum, we're back from our holiday, had a lovely time, am just doing a quick post now to let you know I'm back and will post (lots) more later when I have a bit more time. DH and the DC's are all back at work and nursery and school this week so I will have plenty of time soon.

I hope you had a relaxing break and that DS2 is ok. 'Speak'soon, ABT, x

No hurry to post, but great to know you are back and it went well. Will look forward to reading more when you are ready. :) x

I think from now on, the pink lemonade idea is the best and i am actively trying to set this up, but it may take me another week or so. if its OK with you, i think that is the way we should continue, and i suggest you start checking that in 2 weeks' time for 'pine cone', to be on the safe side.

In the mean time, if you start another Health thread or whatever you feel appropriate, along the lines of what we initiated, i can always find you there if there is a further hold up with pink lemonade arrangements, and can update you accordingly.

So i'll get this going as quickly as i can and in the meantime, will watch out for the new thread which i'll follow with great interest. Good luck with it all! speak soon :) x

Most of the ''popular'' people at school were hated. I find amusement in many things; art, music, hanging out with friendly friends, cooking, swimming and travel. Picking on those more vulnerable than myself is not one of the things I get off on.

I think it's about telling your kids then when people are horrid to you it says more about THEm than YOU. I carry this mantra to adult life and it helps me cope with vicious narcassitic bullies. I was picked on at school but it has made me stronger and I am much better at standing up for myself now. I used to get shocked when someone said something nasty but frankly I am never shocked by how awful peopl are to each other nowadays.

Having said that; I worked in a comp and there was a little girl with Down's syndrome and the other kids were lovely to her showing that some kids are lovely.
When it comes to bullies there's normally a ring leader or ''Queen Bee'' or male equivalent. They gat their wanabees to do the dirty work for them.
I was considered ugly at school, but somehow; despoite my despair I managed to feel good about myself by the time I reached 6th form. I feel like I have hijacked a conversation but I really hope that all your dc have found a way to deal with the bullies.
I recommend ''Queen Bees and wanabees'' an excellent book dealing with school cliques.

Abittipsy; I read what you said about my contribution and i didn't mean it like that. I still have MANY issues about the bulliing I had at school. I have relationship problems and generally dislike humans. I have had two breakdowns and I have been hospitalised. Due to bullying I have also been attracted to narcassists so I do understand the long-term affects and i feel very passionately about them and I am very anti-bullying.
I do think that it's important to tell kids that they will grow into themselves. Even if we don't turn into supermodels (i'm certainly not) important to let them know that they can grow into beautiful human beings both inside and out despite what the bullies say.

Hi Persimum, I just wanted to log on to let you know I haven't disappeared, have just been busy, DD has only just gone back to school and DS is still at home til he starts school in a couple of weeks. DD is also having a belated birthday party this weekend so I am running around sorting out bits for that as well! But will be back soon.

Dear PoshSM, thanks for this - what you are saying is good sense, its just that in my DS's case he seems to have lost himself in the fog and horror of believing he is ugly, and each time he seems to start feeling a little good about himself, some person inadvertently says or maybe he thinks they say/whisper whatever, something horrendous about him and he dives into the depths of misery again. This week he is really very very bad with it and i have been almost in despair again.
ABT and i have been conferring on these feelings over many posts, and how to help them. The trouble is, he thinks he knows best and that everything is a waste of time, we as parents are just unrealistic and in this modern world, if you don't look right, you are finished. What he doesn't see, and what my DH has just been telling him this morning for the millionth time, is that there are very few really really ugly folk in this world, there are just a lot of normal, ordinary people who look good when they have energy and are animated, but look maybe a bit offputting if they are miserable and without animation and this of course gives off a vibe which almost subconsciously makes others back off or behave in wary ways.

I know and sincerely hope he will live to grow into himself. I think the key is in self assertion. I'll certainly get the Queen Bee book and pick up more ideas. He finds a lot of his peers really hard and unfeeling. I think he would have done better if born in the 1920's. He's a true gent, polite, thoughtful, kind, loves animals, tries his best always with people, but he cannot handle dodgy cruel remarks addressed to him. If he could, i don't think we'd have difficulties now. Cos his anger from all past hurts would have been thrown out at the hurters and not inside locked in him. But cos he's ill, in his mind, he can't see it. He's grown up now and yet inside he's still the little chap who took all this sh** from kids who probably didn't really understand the half of what they did to him. As a mum, i feel, although i tried the best way i knew how, i have let him down cos he needed to be tougher and i didn't teach him how cos basically it wasn't in my nature either. My DH is very non aggressive too. I am very worried about him right now and he's gone to see the doc with DH today and i just pray that something gets through to him. Not a good week, but the darkest hour is often before the dawn apparently, so roll on sunrise! Its good that he sees the doc when he's at rock bottom really i guess :)