How to deal with damage when other kids tell yours they are ugly and they lose self esteem?

[Persimum]

Any mums out there who have to keep trying to make their kids feel better when they lose confidence at school cos others tell them they dont fit in cos they dont look good enough?

Why do some kids cope and others dont?
How do mums cope? Any tried and tested ideas please that work. im finding this a big worry for me and for offspring. School itself is no help and nothing they can do anyway I know it has to come from the child but child doesn't believe anyone but the ones who say they look rubbish. Breaks your heart to watch it, let alone totally frustrating.

ABT just seen yours and that's fine, we can talk more when the weekend's over or when you have more time. I'm hanging in there OK although its really very tricky with DS2 right now, and maybe we'll get some breakthrough good news today. Hope so anyway. Speak soon, still working on getting pink lemonade project set up, was intending to do so today but these other events have intervened so it may be a few more days. Have a good party!:) x

Persimum, I had to reply to your last post. It is heartbreaking to read about your DS2. You haven't let him down, you have brought him up in the right way. It is the mothers of the children who grew up to be hurtful and tactless who have let their children down. But sadly it seems to always be the case that those sections of society are always the least self reflective and aware of feelings other than their own.

And if you have let your DC down then I am currently doing the very same with my DC's. And yet I don't know how to be any different. I simply could not teach my DC's to be tough and uncaring. All I can try and do is make them aware that not all children/people are taught the same things I try to teach them and that is why some children/people behave quite badly.

I do hope the doctor has positive news for him. But I totally agree with you about learning to be self assertive and learning how to put up boundaries around yourself that other people realise they are not permitted to cross. That is not the same as putting a protective wall up around yourself. It is about letting others know, politely, that you will not tolerate being treated with disrespect and discourtesy. And it takes courage to enforce these boundaries, but it gets easier with time and practise, as I have found out for myself.

And it is very hard to start imposing and enforcing boundaries in relationships where before there were none. This is my current struggle. Compared to this, it was far easier to simply end the relationships where the other person was totally unwilling or unable to respect the boundaries I set up.

I suspect your DS2 may be in a similar situation. He may be ready and willing to start putting in boundaries within existing relationships eg with work colleagues and existing friends perhaps, but may not know how to do this. When people are used to treating him in a certain way and getting away with it, they are often very resistant to having to change their behaviour. But if your DS2 can begin in a small but consistent way, I am sure he will soon start seeing results. Most people get the new message very quickly, but of course there are always those who don't and I myself am not quite sure what to do in that situation.

ABT that's so good of you to write, with all you've got going on. They are not back yet and there's been no calls so i hope things are going as well as we might hope.

I agree wholeheartedly about the boundaries thing. its just that i think, honestly and realistically, seeing him this morning, he's got too ill in his mind to be logical at all and he feels its all pointless. I hope the expert can tip him around so that he opens up again and sees what life is for. Its just that he is so convinced of his ugliness and nothing i can say changes it, he just says ' you don't understand'. I think he's feeling so awful he just constantly sees himself under a microscope all the time and although he doesn't probably mean to, he doesn't 'feel' for others at all. We just seem to be jumping through hoops endlessly for him to keep him going but i daren't risk saying that to him, cos he'd possibly just fold up and maybe give up totally. He isn't really asking us to do it, he would just pack it all in though if we didn't, right now anyway, as he's so down. DH did say that to him the other night ('you only think about yourself etc') and he was upset and said he did care about us a lot, and i know he does really. Its like when you said you feel grumpy and isolated when people misunderstand you and you are feeling not your best with the eczema. You don't mean it towards them, you just feel desperate and are trying to cope.

We'll exchange more stuff next week, but you must get on with the party arrangements, the weather is going to be lovely for it. Don't worry about me, i'm chugging along as i always do and whatever will be, will be. DH is very good, bless him. Maybe we are actually reaching a turning point. :) x

ABT - they came back with some interesting ideas, at least, DH certainly thought they were, and maybe DS2 will take it further. I sure hope so.

In the meantime, vis-a-vis pink champagne, i am getting nearer to discovering that and I'll let you know what to watch out for when you too are dipping into it again, but we'll leave it till after the party!

Thanks for yesterday's post, it was great and really helped. Also to everyone else who's contributed to this thread from the beginning, all the MNetters who've been so supportive and interesting and given me such food for thought over these posts. we'll look forward now to YOUR new thread taking the issues you raised, on further, but not till you've got DC's back to school and have time to yourself to think! :) x

Hello Persimum, I finally have a couple of hours to myself, DH is at work, DD at school and DS is having a few days at nursery until he starts school next week.

There is so much to write about I don't know where to start. First of all, how is DS2 since the visit to the doc? You said they came back with some interesting ideas, is your DS2 open to taking them on board? If he's not and is feeling very closed off and down, well, I know how he feels. I have been there and done that. I remember going to see a private consultant years ago and feeling hopeful that he would have something new to tell me, something that I hadn't tried before but there was nothing. No new miracle cure, just the same old treatments that I had already rejected. I got very, very down indeed and was almost suicidal. And I had NO support unlike your DS2. I could NEVER talk to either of my parents about how I felt, how low and lonely and sad and depressed I was. And that made me feel even worse. At least your DS2 has your support, he can talk to you, and that will keep him going, I am absolutely sure.

I don't really know how I got through that time. There was something inside me that refused to give up, even though a big part of me wanted to, and then a while later I found a treatment that did work, albeit only temporarily and cleared up the eczema, until it flared up again some years later, after I had DD.

You and your DH are doing something, you are being there for your son. My parents did nothing, just left me alone to sink or swim. The fact that I swam was in spite of them rather than because of them.

I wrote and sent that letter to my dad. I kept it completely factual which made it so much easier to write and I'm so glad of your suggestion to perhaps send another letter after the money is in my account, it hadn't even occurred to me to do that and I'm so glad you mentioned it. I haven't had a reply yet. He must have had my letter for nearly 2 weeks now, am not sure what is a reasonable length of time to wait before I chase it up. I sent it by normal post, not email, so there is always the chance it didn't reach him. I will send another copy perhaps next week if I have still heard nothing. I am going to be quite shameless and ruthless about pursuing this money from him. Even if he doesn't see it like I do, I absolutely feel that both he and my mother owe me for the way they treated me and I am still suffering because of them to this day because of my eczema. And he was the one that made me the offer completely out of the blue, I didn't ask for it, and I will not let it go until he hands over the money.

I'm sure my going after the money in this way will confirm my parents' and sisters' already extremely low opinion of me. They think I am a greedy, selfish, uncaring, thoughtless person and taking this money from my parents and giving them nothing in return will be their proof that they were right about me all along. I am the bad egg and they are all the good guys. That has been their message to me all my life and I can't see it ever changing, no matter what I do, so I might as well take the money and run!

You mentioned that you were interested in alternative and complementary therapies and I wondered if you had come across the phrase 'healing crisis'? It's when, during the healing process, you can sometimes feel as if things are getting worse, and in fact things do get worse for a while, before they get better again and you then feel much much better. I think that during all this time, whilst I have been recovering and healing mentally and emotionally from my abusive childhood, I have been experiencing numerous 'healing crises' with my eczema where for a few days it seems to get really bad, flare up etc, and I feel really down, but then it starts improving, I feel better again and I end up feeling better than I ever have before. A bit like going 1 step back and 2 steps forward. I had heard about this sort of thing from various alternative therapists I have seen over the years, but had never actually experienced anything like it until I started on this journey of recovery from my past. And I have also read about the 'healing' starting at the top ie your head and working it's way down your body and again I think that is what I am experiencing. My eczema flare ups have always been mostly on my face {sad] but as time has gone on the flare ups are no longer appearing on my face but instead they do seem to be moving down my body until the last flare up I had was on my legs and feet. I am taking that to be a good sign that the eczema is on it's way out as I have heard that whatever illness one has leaves one's body through your feet and toes. ie it flows down and out through you. It makes so much sense to me and everything I have heard about 'alternative' healing seems to fit my own experience so I am hopeful that I am getting closer to the point where my eczema might be cleared up completely. I am sure I will still be left with a few scars from the steriod creams I had to use, but I can live with that. Like you said earlier, they are like battle scars and I will be proud of them.

It's good that you're nearly able to do the 'pink lemonade' thing, look forward to chatting there soon.

I have been thinking about you saying that I had a good DH. You are right in many respects, he is a good, decent man and tries to be a good father to the DC's and good DH to me. But if I'm really honest, I am not at all sure that he's really the right person for me. I am not sure if it's the case that we have simply grown apart, grown in different directions since we have been together or that perhaps he was never the right person for me, even when we got married. Perhaps it is a bit of both. I have grown a lot over the past few years, as a result of working on myself and dealing with the legacy from my childhood and have changed from the person I was when we got married 10 years ago. I sometimes feel I have outgrown DH. He thinks he hasn't got any particular issues and has no need to do any work on himself, he does not think he could improve himself in anyway, partly because he is a bit arrogant and partly because he thinks compared to me he had a near perfect childhood and therefore has no issues as a result.

I think very differently. I think he has got some issues, but he is much too scared to face them which of course is very common, and so he is in denial. But I can 'see' what his issues are and can probably work out where they stem from. As well as 'psychanalysing' myself over the last few years, I have also, almost inadvertently, been psychoanalysing him, because I know him pretty well after all this time and I also have got to know his parents pretty well. And as an objective outsider, it has been fairly easy for me to piece together his family dynamic. His mother comes from a highly dysfunctional family and has done no work on herself to resolve her own issues and that fact alone will mean that she will have inevitably and unknowingly passed on some of her issues to DH, particularly as he is the eldest child in their family.

But I can't force DH to face his issues, he can only do that when and if he is ready and for some people that day never comes, they can go through their whole lives without confronting and resolving their issues and DH might be one of those people.

So I do sometimes think I would have far more in common with a partner who has been or is on a similar journey to me, a journey of self reflection, self insight and enlightenment. I can't see DH ever embarking on such a journey, because he is the 'grandiose' type (do you remember Alice Miller talking about this type of person in The Drama?) and that type is the least likely to ever seek to confron their childhood issues.

Gosh, I hope you understand what I am rambling about, I didn't mean to go on so much, it is just so nice to be able to get my thoughts out, have been bottling them up for most of the holidays, I never did get round to keeping my diary like I said I would,

Hi there ABT, a lot to digest here but all very interesting.

The healing crisis thing, well, yes, i've heard of that and i think the way its working for you, going down to the feet, is really fascinating and when one thinks it through, it is just SO logical and makes such sense.

The letter to your father - well, maybe let it run 3 weeks, as in business one normally allows 2 and a half to 3 weeks before a chase up, and that will make him think you are totally laid back about it and not 'in need' but just reacting like any business person would, accepting an offer and waiting for the nuts and bolts to be put in place. I don't think, if it was me, i'd leave it more than 3 weeks though.

Your DH may not have had to search for answers like you, and it is still early days yet. Its a funny thing, but life has a way of showing people things sometimes later than sooner, and he is very young yet in many ways. One does not of course wish for anything to make life difficult for him, but they do say people have to experience stuff themselves in order to fully empathise with others and their issues, however much they may wish to do so. they just do not have the mental equipment inside to do so, but with time, life often does put it there.
A good father and being someone you are not afraid of, counts for a lot. Of course no one is ever exactly what would meet one's own criteria for perfection, and i do very much understand what you are saying, but you sound like you are coping well, dealing with the first issue which is the eczema, and keeping the family ticking along as best you can. If ever you felt threatened or utterly miserable being with DH, then it might be time to start re-evaluating things, but you've only got to read some of the heart rending accounts of mums in the 'mental health' section of MN to see how they struggle on with DCs when they are alone, getting tired, or where DH's are very very difficult.

Time was when i would have said the same as you, with reference to my DH, and i used to get really very impatient with him for his lack of insight. but i must say that over years, (a lot of years) it has worked out well as he has gradually started to get really interested in all the psychology of things, and says now he wishes so much he had understood so much more earlier as he could have helped me so much. I think he grieves for all the lost years when we didn't fully understand each other, and i now say 'well, we are where we are and we can only go on from there', its like the Buddhists say, the secret of a happy life is to accept 'what is, is' and take things from there. Anyway, this is only my take on things and we are all different, but i'm a great believer in thinking that if you try to do the right thing, and with a good heart, its amazing how things work out! Its very good to chat these things out in an anonymous kind of way, cos sometimes there is no one one can say them to, except you can go round chatting to yourself (as i tend to do! :) ) and hoping no one thinks you are totally batty!

As to DS2, well, maybe more discussion later but fingers crossed we are doing not too badly so far this week. More soon when more time.
Don't worry about the diary, i've got some good book references for you with regard to that. Maybe just getting thoughts down in email form is enough, its just feeling that you can get them out and let them fly away somewhere, that seems to help. :)

A bit more info here for anyone wanting to write and get rid of feelings or sort feelings out in written form. I haven't read these both in depth yet, but skimmed and thought they seemed good. 'The New Diary' by Tristine Rainer, 'how to use a journal for self guidance and expanded creativity' and 'Writing for Emotional Balance' by Beth Jacobs Ph.D. - 'a guided journal to help you manage overwhelming emotions'.

Can't write more on DS2 as i am scared that he will discover the discussions and feel betrayed so i feel i need to close the book on him at this point. But i'm very much looking forward to continuing things more obliquely with regard to him when you have time to start the new thread and we'll take it from there. Have you thought which category it will go under yet? Or how you will title it? I expect you want to get the DCs happily settled into school first, so you'll have more time to think it through and to devote to it. i'm pursuing pink lemonade idea but now having to wait a while to see if we get one of those wretched tax underpayment letters this week, as that will rather clip my wings for a while if we do. Fingers crossed we get a good letter, not a bad one!
I just can't believe they can get away with doing this, but that's life i guess !

On news today we learn that vitamin B6 and B12 and folic acid (admittedly 100 times normal dose) is helpful for people starting with dementia, or presumably for warding it off and slowing it down.

Like i said earlier in thread to ABT, B6 is just great for PMT. Also, i always dream more when i take B supplements. So something must be going on in the brain, surely. After all the rubbish we hear from some doctors about how supplements are not good for us and we don't need 'em, gosh, are we really now seeing that mainstream medical opinion might just be cottoning on that there's something cheap and cheerful that works here and is not likely to be iactogenic. Who knows, this might actually be a change of attitude across the board. well, pigs might fly, but its every man for himself i guess and the more research we do, the better off we'll be. :)

Hi Persimum, just popping in to say a quick hello, and yes, like you, I do hope that one day the mainstream medical establishment will open their eyes and minds to the knowledge which is out there which they are choosing to ignore. I know that medical students spend only 2 weeks during their training studying skin conditions. And yet skin conditions are so common and so distressing and they can be life threatening as I was considering committing suicide because of my eczema.

Will be able to write more soon, I hope you and DH and DS2 are well, ABT x

Hello there ABT, your post leads me to say, how about starting a thread on skin conditions, highlighting how desperately they are needing attention and insight, and how they can impinge on all aspects of life, relationships, mood, aspirations etc? What you say about doctors as students having only 2 weeks work on them, is horrifying. Do you know more info like this? I know SKIN DEEP has quite a lot.

Also interesting is things like the effect certain plants/flowers can have on skin. Peony extract, for instance, is amazing for redness. It would be good to have a forum into which people could add things they've found helpful.

Then there's also the effect certain foods have on skin for some people. It took me years to figure out that every time i ate butter, i got my acne back on my forehead. But there are vitamin medication drinks that can line your stomach so that foods don't trigger these intolerant effects. I use one each day and can eat chocolate and even wheat flour sometimes now without a bad skin reaction. Amino acid supplements can help, but you need to read up on it first. Books on health by Adele Davies are wonderful. She wrote several before she died. They were the first things i ever read in the beginning of my search for complementary health answers to problems back in 1982.

And of course there is the psychological aspect which is SO important and has such a bearing on the whole thing. I am very excited to see what happens if you start this thread.

Hope the DCs happily settled in school this week and also hope the eczema is retreating nicely? look forward to more soon when more time :) x

Hello Persimum, hope you are all ok. I just wanted to let you know that I have had a reply from my dad. I haven't opened the envelope yet, am going to wait til Monday when I will have the house to myself. I was wondering if you were around on Monday and whether we could perhaps arrange a time to log on and I could open the letter and tell you what it says? Going by my dad's track record I am sure he will not just hand over the money without trying to get something back from me in return and I would appreciate your advice on how best to deal with him. I could be wrong and the letter could contain a cheque but somehow, knowing my dad, I doubt it, . There's no pressure or obligation, it's just that if you happen to be around on Monday, it would be nice. ABT x

ABT - have just opened this and will be around part of today so am happy to arrange a time - how does 2.00pm suit? Otherwise what about later? Have to pop out and do some stuff now, but i'll check this again at 1pm to see if you have answered. P x

Hi Persimum, good to hear from you, 2pm is fine, so speak then, no worries if it doesn't work out, we can try and chat later on in the evening. Thanks, ABT x

ABT dv I'll be there at 2pm for the Grand Opening! P x

ABT - I'm here and ready and intrigued! Good luck :) P x

Hello, ok I have the letter am going to open it now.

It's very short. No cheque enclosed. He says it is possible he can give us the money he offered. That's ridiculous seeing as he is the one who offered us the money over a year ago, no strings attached. He's writing as if I went to him and asked him for money which I didn't. But, he says, there are a few queries re tax issues which he doesn't want to write down in a long letter and so, (here are the 'strings',) he wants me to phone him to discuss the money.

He keeps trying to make me phone him to discuss his tax issues. What on earth can I do about his tax issues? As far as I'm concerned he completely voluntarily offered us £x no strings attached, his words not mine. I first rejected and then accepted his offer. He is now saying I have to call him to discuss it. I never want to see or speak to him ever again whether in person or on the phone so that's not going to happen.

How should I respond?

I know him well enough to know that he will 'get' something out of me calling him in order to secure the money. That is what he wants from me in return for the money. Contact. I have refused to have any contact with him for over 4 years now. When I first said I was cutting ties with him and my mother I know he didn't believe I would go through with it. He thought I would come crawling back after 6 months. He was totally wrong about me. And now he is using the lure of money to try and establish some sort of contact with me.

I do want the money and I will use it to send DD to a fantastic private school around here that we previously thought was impossible for us to afford. But I simply cannot bear even the thought of speaking to him, the person who abused me for years. If that is what is needed to secure the money, should I ask DH to speak to him? I am sure DH would be willing to do it and if it means we get the money then perhaps it should be done, and it means I still have no contact with him myself. What do you think?

Persimum, I have to go soon to collect the DC's. Will pop back later to see if you have any thoughts on all this.

I'm sorry it took a while to respond from this end, i thought your answer would just 'pop up' in front of me, but i've just pressed the 'update' button on the toolbar and now i've got your 4 posts. SO, deep breath, well, a tricky situation. I can only say what i'd do it it were me, and this may not be right for you, but first i'd weigh up how much the money was going to mean to me. If its for the school for DD, but its coming in from him in phased payments, then you have to think what you'd do if he makes the first two or three and then he just stops, and you are left to carry on with it. (That's what happened to us in a sense, not for the same reasons but cos the insurance payouts or whatever it was, went down massively year by year and we were left either with having to move the 2 DSs into the state system, with all the upheaval that would have been, or finding the money ourselves, which was a big struggle. We did the latter.

You say for sure that you do want the money. In which case, you have then to decide whether you can get DH to talk to him, or you do it yourself. if DH does it, there's always the chance that he'll say he only wants to discuss it with you as it affects his private tax affairs etc.

You are a strong person now. You've shown this all through these past threads. You've done therapy, you understand from reading Miller and others, how the past has affected you, but you also know how to deal with it. Thinking about AM, i'm tempted to ask how you feel she would have dealt with this if standing in your shoes? Are you afraid that if you speak to him on the phone, he will upset you and rekindle all the horrors of the past? At the moment, it seems to me he is having the satisfaction of getting you to hop around him, and he'll know that you dread speaking to him, having stopped all contact for 4 years etc. Do you know, what i'd do if i were in your shoes, is (when DH is around for moral support) i'd ring him very calmly myself and say, something to the effect, (laid back and controlled and cool) 'hi dad, got your letter, thanks a lot for the offer (pretend you haven't noticed the bit that looks like he's making it look like you are asking for the money) we've talked it over and, yes, that's really nice of you to do for me like you've done for the others and we'll be using it for education, so we have a sensible use to put it to nowadays. Now, just tell me what your question is about tax and i'll have to look stuff up and i'll write you a confirming note about what we've agreed and i'll give you my bank account number at the same time. (let him ask you - all the time keep it laid back and cool, as though you are talking to someone at work who you hardly know). Whatever he says, don't let it rile you and keep it out of your brain, remain detached. Make notes, like he is a stranger, to discuss with DH later.

The thing is, if you can do this, you have shown him you are in control, you are not afraid of him, and he no longer has power over you. If he starts saying 'oh i do miss you, it would be so nice to get together again and see the little Dcs etc' you could just say, 'well, lots of families have their ups and downs and right now i think there are a lot of past issues that, as you know, have not been helpful to me in forging a deep relationship with you and mum, but who knows, with the passage of time, things can change. But right now, i'm more comfortable with just keeping to practical things, which is why, dad, i want to say its really nice of you to give this money both to me and my sisters, and i appreciate it very much. Can we leave it at that for now?' - then make an excuse if you need to to get off the phone, DS is out of bed wanting something, or something -

What i'm trying to say is, it seems to me that if you get DH to do it for you, your dad will have the idea that you are hiding away, listening from a distance, cos you are so afraid of him and what he might say to you. And the thing is, he can't abuse you any more, cos you have the whip hand now. So if it was down to me, i'd treat him as though he was just someone you were doing business with, so you are polite and practical and quick and to the point, but emotional issues, blackmail, doesn't come into it. Have a good excuse to get off the phone just in case you need it, ready from the start. If you show him by speaking to him that you are a different you to the old you he knew in the past, you take control. And cos you are in control, you can afford to be magnanimous and play 'lady bountiful' cos you are NOW STRONG and afraid of no one.

So there it is, but you know him and i don't, so this may all read like rubbish! Let me know what you think :) x

P.S. sorry to have missed you, i think mine got through just after your last one. I think when he talks of tax issues he may be talking about inheritance tax and stuff like that - i think a parent can make a gift of a certain amount per annum to a child but if he's giving more than that, i think you are liable to being taxed on the extra if he dies in less than 7 years from now. I bet your DH would know the up-to-date details on this better than i, i tend to leave that stuff to my DH and the accountant which i accept is lazy but there it is. It might be worth getting sussed up on this before you call dad, so you know exactly what the tax issues from your end, re inheritance tax, are. You see, in a sense its not so much to do with his tax, its more to do with him making sure that you could get a whopping tax bill on it if say, he died in 4 years' time. This is all supposition on my part, but its worth you finding out about this issue beforehand so you can keep that conversation with him (if you decide to have it) as short, breezy and to the point, with no surprises in it for you to have to deliberate over from your end.

P.S. again - sorry, rushed to type it and messed it up - when i said its all about him 'making sure you could get a massive tax bill' i meant, him making sure you knew there was a RISK of your getting a retrospective tax bill before you accepted the money, i didn't mean he was setting you up out of spite, to get lumbered. (Recent events have shown the horrors of what the Inland Rev can drop on us when we least expect it!) If he wanted to do that, he wouldn't be bothering to discuss the tax implications with you, he would just have put the cheque in the letter and gone off rubbing his hands with glee, thinking you wouldn't maybe have even thought of it. :)