How to deal with damage when other kids tell yours they are ugly and they lose self esteem?

[Persimum]

Any mums out there who have to keep trying to make their kids feel better when they lose confidence at school cos others tell them they dont fit in cos they dont look good enough?

Why do some kids cope and others dont?
How do mums cope? Any tried and tested ideas please that work. im finding this a big worry for me and for offspring. School itself is no help and nothing they can do anyway I know it has to come from the child but child doesn't believe anyone but the ones who say they look rubbish. Breaks your heart to watch it, let alone totally frustrating.

ABitTipsy first of all, yes, do lets keep in touch and being very new to MNetting i don't know what Chat is but will try to find out today and will then put a call out to you when we are both back from hols. i'm nervous to use email as my DS, who runs my server, just might see something and it would be very upsetting for him and he might not feel safe talking to me anymore which would be an even bigger worry just now. i think for future threads, i'd rather keep it to issues you and i are dealing with, as we have successfully dealt with what i might do as far as he's concerned and i don't want to be a bore on the subject.

You are right about your interpretation of the counsellor's 'letting go' suggestion and i must try harder to do that.

As you and i both have info on coping with skin conditions, (i have lots more sources which i could list, which might be of help to others, yourself included) maybe we could do a thread on that as the main topic, and then how dealing with these problems makes us feel psychologically, thus zapping the problem from both ends? this is just a suggestion. We could bring in the role families play in all this, the opportunities they have to be helpful or otherwise, and how we cope or don't.

Or we could just talk about coping with families that are as difficult as ours have been and how best to protect ourselves from feeling miserable when having to deal with them. i think there is a lot in your experiences which would be very helpful to others.

Also, books: you and i have a lot of knowledge in various related areas that we could pass on. i've just discovered 'Overcoming Body Image Problems' by David Veale, Rob Wilson and Alex Clarke, and i think its one of the best things i've read in ages. its just been published. Wonderful on coping, developing strategy for what to say when people make insensitive remarks, how to go out in the world and get on with life regardless. i haven't finished it yet but must recommend it to you. Even if only a small part relates to anything you feel, its well worth a read.

I've ordered 'Toxic Inlaws' and will read it on holiday. Hardly a day passes when my toxic MIL doesn't do something new to drive me and DH up the wall, so getting some ideas from that book will arm me well and hopefully make us giggle a bit. I think he and i need a good giggle! :)

The 'You is for Unique' book doesn't have anything about skin conditions but does have the one chapter i mentioned on schoolgirl bullying with an anecdote which is so almost exactly what happened to me, that i found it helpful. it is however good for anyone struggling with other issues like bulimia, anorexia, obesity, and worrying about other bits of their bodies that they are concerned about.

DH and i will certainly read Alice Miller, and don't worry about the writing style, we'll read anything if it will help us to cope!

It does sound very much as if emotions and hormones have a big part to play in the triggering of your eczema, and it must have been wonderful to have that long period of time when it went away and you felt beautiful again. Knowing that is attainable must bring a little comfort, but now finding the way is the first essential. Emotions can trigger physical feelings so quickly, its just amazing. Sometimes a letter from the bank lying on the doormat with their old familiar logo on the back of the envelope, could trigger instant fear in me and a need to rush to the bathroom. (Sorry, maybe tmi!)
And any worry at all could trigger a hot feeling, like a hot flush thing (i have done menopause so i mean like that)

Must go now as have to go out but will write more later. Have a think about threads. :)

Hi there, back again and now half way through Alice Miller. ABitTipsy she is, like you say, just brilliant. But you do have to read and digest each chunk, sometimes reading aloud helps, cos there's a great deal there to absorb and understand.

i'm around till the end of next week, so will carry on and report back. the 'You is for Unique' book seems only to talk about women who had wonderful mums, so i'm a bit worried in case you find that off putting, but it is the reported stories of various women and how they feel about their bodies.

Especially interesting in 'The Drama of the Gifted Child' is the way she describes how some counsellors work. I have a very scary SIL who is one and now i see why she is in the job she does, as it all fits with her own early experiences. its been quite an eye opener. i also realise how lucky i was to have the mum i did. There are all kinds of insights in that book which i am finding, page by page, so that you so much for the recommendation.

Happened upon a magazine article yesterday on eczema which explained to me how the hormone balance can change in stressful moments and the cortisol level rise, which is what triggers eczema. You'll of course know all this ABitTipsy but i'm learning. I know a lot about acne and know that stress makes that worse, but am pretty ignorant, as yet, on eczema.

Do you ever keep a diary of how the eczema fluctuates so that you can see what flares it up and what helps maybe to lessen it? Writing feelings down is a very good way to get rid of them, as you and i have proved, maybe, with this thread. :) Keeping a secret diary just might help, if you don't already have one. its a great comfort to look back and see what you've achieved and remember happy times with the family too.

Hi Persimum, am very happy you would like to keep in touch, we seem to be on the same wavelength which is really nice .

I understand about you not wanting to email, that's fine. Re 'chat', this is a thread topic and I have never done it myself but have seen other MNers start a thread in Chat trying to find another MNer, so it seems to be the done thing. I will also put this thread on my 'Watch' list so we might be able to revive it from the dead once we're back from hols .

I am so glad you 'get' Alice Miller's The Drama, I recommend that book a lot but not everyone really understands what AM is trying to say. I agree that the book needs to be read slowly and digested, there is no padding or waffle in it at all, every single word has been used for a reason. I really hope your DS2 finds it helpful too.

Sorry am jumping around a bit here, but i think your idea of starting a thread about distressing skin conditions is a very good idea, like a support group online. Will do that after our holiday. I don't know why I haven't done that already. I think I feel very much like I am the only person with this issue, I have never seen or met anybody else with a problem like mine, and I am worried about starting a thread to which nobody responds and that would make me feel even worse, it would be confirmation that I am the only person unlucky enough to have this problem.

The book on overcoming body image you have mentioned sounds good, especially if it talks about how to cope with the insensetive remarks etc of other people. Has your DS2 e
read it? It sounds like it would help him. I will look up the book, but I feel my issue is a bit different in that I am or was, very happy with my looks minus the eczema. Like you said it was lovely during the times when i was free of it and could wake up in the morning feeling happy, without a millstone round my neck. I felt normal, like it I fitted in to society and had energy to achieve whatever I wanted. I suspect that books on body image must be a lot to do with learning to accept your looks and learning to love yourself just the way you are. But I don't think I can do that because I simply cannot accept my eczema. It is not how I was meant to be. I wasn't born with it. I developed it, purely as a result of the experiences i went through as a child with my parents, experiences that I shouldn't have had. And i refuse to accept this condition. I did nothing to deserve it. I did nothing to deserve having to suffer in this way. My parents are the ones that should be suffering and living a miserable half life, not me. They are the ones who did do something wrong.

I do feel that at some point I will find some treatment that will clear up my skin as it's not my 'natural' state of being iykwim? But right now I am focussing on sorting out my emotional/childhood issues; a herbalist that I know said that my eczema is only a 'symptom' of my other issues and I think she is absolutely right.

I think your idea of keeping a diary is a very good one and I do actually do this, but more in my head than anything written down. ie if I do have a flare up, I think back to before it started and what emotions/thoughts/feelings were going on and I nearly always find the trigger that caused the flare up. I have had to learn to be very 'tuned' in to my body and the messages it sends, and be very aware of my thoughts and feelings, even those very fleeting thought that are almost part of your subconscious, in fact those are the most important thoughts to grasp hold of and bring into your conscious mind. Subconscious thoughts are so powerful nd are usually the 'drivers' of our behaviour, and not our conscious thoughts as people often think.

I was wondering whether your DS1 has any of the same issues as DS2? Do they look similar? Or very different? My sisters and I look quite different, but it is my eczema that really sets me apart from them and makes me feel so different and seperate from them. It makes me feel very lonely. I have distanced myself from them largely because I can't bear to visit them and see how 'normal' they are and what 'normal' lives they can lead because they are not disabled with my problem. I know it's not their fault they don't have eczema but they don't even seem to have any sympathy or compassion or empathy for the fact that I do have this condition and how it makes me feel. They are quite insensetive; if I could spend time with them knowing that they would treat me with sensetivity and tact I would be more inclined to see them. Although it's not just how they treat me wrt my eczema, it's also the fact they don't believe that I am justified in cutting ties with our parents. It really hurts to know my own sisters don't believe I was abused, that they think I am exaggerating, lying, being oversensetive and unreasonable and even ungrateful. They weren't subjected to what i went through and because of that they don't believe that what I went through was that bad.

Sorry, am going way off topic now. Somehow, whatever I start off talking about, I always end up talking about my family issues. Every road seems to lead back there. But it's not surprising as all my problems stem from my childhood within that family.

Hey there ABitTipsy the keeping in touch thing sounds good and if all else fails, ie if i don't find you again via Chat, then you go ahead and start another thread but maybe decide this week under which header it will be and then i can find it. Might it be under 'Health' or 'Relationships' do you think? Or maybe still under 'Parenting'? Depends where you think you'd like the emphasis to be.

I don't think for a second you are the only person with eczema problems and having them caused by stress in the family etc. As you know you feel good when you don't have a skin problem, the first priority surely should be of our collecting MN knowledge on how others got rid of it to get you feeling good again. You could list what you've tried and what works and what doesn't, and instances of when the psychological issues make it worse. I could do the same for acne.

If ever you didn't get much response, it would only be cos others are not feeling brave enough to come out and discuss it. the way i started this thread was not really condusive to leading into this side of things, which is prob why we haven't have more eczema and acne sufferers joining in. i think i was too scared at first to say what i was really most worried about, which was losing my son cos he felt so mentally scarred by the bullying started at school, that he couldn't bear life anymore. it took all my courage to say this, and i feel much better since i did, and since you said what you said about the lack of likelihood of it happening. At least i know even if it happened, that i really did all i could and someone knows i did.

My DS recommended that book to me and we are both reading our own copy. He is trying very hard to put into practice what it recommends. From your aspect of it, just the bit about coping with outside remarks might be useful, like you say, the rest you really don't need, but we could discuss some of these on your next thread and share them with others as coping mechanisms.

My DSs look very similar. Ironically they are both very handsome, just like my dad was. The only difference is that DS1 has oodles of confidence and DS2 has none. You could actually take them for twins if you saw them out in the street. DS2 just started off with the worst acne you can imagine. We tried everything and eventually went to a good environmental type private doc who suggested a stone age diet. DS2 was at the time waiting for an appt for several months with an NHS dermatologist, referred by the GP. Whilst we waited we did the diet. The improvement was really marked and even the GP had to admit it was. But when we finally got the appt to see the dermatologist and she examined his back (he and we being quite hopeful following the improvement via diet) she just looked at it and said he'd never get rid of the scarring. she didn't seem at all impressed by the diet. I remember his enormous disappointment and after her damning statement, i don't think he felt anything we offered would ever work. i think he just lost heart that day. He tried all kinds of strong treatments and its much better than it was, but it still erupts so the scarring can't be tackled till it stops. i firmly think diet is part of it and stress another, but that's just my feeling. it would be so interesting to learn what others have found useful and how long it took. i too still have scarring but i never think about it now, well, hardly. Strangely enough i found that Vit B6 helped me, and also not eating butter, but i only found that out accidentally. I also drink a balanced vitamin cocktail each day (not alcoholic!).

On the emotional stress front,I have 2 SIL's who have been extremely tricky to deal with from day one. There are awful power struggles in my DH's family and for years i felt we needed to compete to be loved, but in recent years i've realised that we can never win cos my MIL doesn't want us to. she has to have someone to moan about and we fit the bill perfectly. Each time we do something a parent might be proud of, it really makes her utterly miserable, so we don't report it now! what i find amazing is that the SIL's, who are intelligent people (one hopes) don't weigh in and defend us, but they are i think so scared for their own position in the popularity stakes with her that they never do, and instead seem to try to make life harder for us. We don't get into any arguments any more, we just keep our distance and play it like a chess game.:) Like yours, i don't think they want to act sensitively, even if they could, so there's no point trying to reason it out with them cos they use psychobabble or anger to pull us down and wrong foot us over and over, not accepting that MIL treated us any differently to them, or if they admit that she did, saying that we deserved it and like you, 'we are SO ungrateful' ! I do feel that all this was originally driven by MIL and they have just seized their lead from her and still do. Privately they both say they don't like her, and one even said at one time that she was psychotic! But they butter her up and make her think they like her. My DH has actually been a kinder, more supportive son for her genuinely, than either of his siblings. I think she is a control freak really, possibly brought about through early fears as a child, as is SIL who is a counsellor and always has the perfect throwaway comment on any given situation. (Alice Miller is really showing me now where SIL got all this from and why she became a counsellor ).
Really empowering!

My own counsellor suggested i just let them go in my mind, and i have. I'm off topic too, like you say, with these family issues, but in a way, they are crucial to our recovery so its no bad thing that we air them. Occasionally my DH says the injustice of it makes him furious, and i do worry for him sometimes and have to calm him down and remind him of all the good stuff going on.
We just want to see DS2 happy and relaxed really.

The very act of writing feelings and events on a page is even better than telling oneself in one's head, cos somehow the little words carry the feelings away like ants and set them firmly on the paper, if that doesn't sound too daft. You say your siblings lead normal lives, well, of course one never knows what's going on under the surface or how happy they really are. As unenlightened as they sound, i guess they are prob not getting as much out of life as you are, although you may doubt that. What matters is that there must be a way of getting this eczema to go away like it did before, and to stay away for good, and somehow we will find it :). You may even find that by the time you've written it all down, all the fury and the feelings, then if you get something topical to apply to the skin, you won't even need it :). Forgive me if this sounds trite, but stranger things have happened!

Hi there Persimum, great, so we have a plan in case we 'lose' each other! Good idea about starting another thread before we go away. The only problem is the new thread could die as well whilst we are away if nobody posts on it whilst we're not around. I will put a call out for you on Chat once I'm back from hols and I can keep bumping it til you see it! That should work and then maybe we can start our new thread then? I'll be around then for ages, as DC's will be back at school, so we should be able to keep it going.

I have been thinking a bit more about why I haven't already started a support thread for people with severe eczema and other skin conditions, particularly things that are highly visible to others. As well as being scared that I might be the only one with this problem, or at least the only one with such a severe case of it on my face, I think I was also embarressed and ashamed about having the condition and way too scared to talk about it to others. Logically I know that if I did talk about it on here, and talked about how depressed it made me feel, the other posters would be sympathetic and understanding. But I think I am so used to being made to feel bad, inferior and ashamed of having this condition (by my parents and MIL ) that I cannot imagine being shown sympathy and understanding and kindness.

But you have made me feel it will be ok if I do start a support thread; you have been so understanding about it, it's a bit of a revelation to me, that people don't always have to react to me negatively. It just shows how I have been surrounded with completely the wrong sort of people for so long, I grew to believe that their response to me was the only sort of response that was possible.

I'm so glad you were able to talk on here about the thing that was worrying you the most, the thing that you were most scared of, and I honestly do believe from what you have told me that whilst your DS2 might be down about his looks, he does not come across as somebody without hope, who feels completely alone with nowhere to turn. He knows he has you and your support and concern, he can always talk to you, and I am sure people who take their own lives feel they have nobody to turn to who will listen and empathise.

What an awful experience your DS had with his consultant. Unfortunately it doesn't surprise me. From my own experience with doctors and consultants, the very people who are supposed to be making you better are the very one's who make you feel infinitely worse. I have completely given up on conventional western medicine. I think there is more they don't know, than they do know, if that makes sense? They only focus on the symptoms, not the cause and never take into account the part our mind plays in what goes on with our bodies. Of course western medicine has it's place if you need surgery or anti-biotics, but not with conditions such as eczema or even acne. I must admit I don't know too much about acne and it's causes; I do have an idea that it is caused by hormones being out of balance or too much of one hormone being produced. So then we need to look at how and why a person's hormones are out of balanced or being overproduced. And what you said upthread about your DS2's hormones being thrown out of kilter by the emotional trauma of being bullied at a crucial time in his development may be the cause of the problem. And it seems as if he has never truly got away from the bullying, and so his system has never had a chance to recover and rebalance itself. Have you/he ever considered acupuncture? That is meant to be good for rebalancing the body. But I think any form of treatment must be used in conjunction with therapy, because if your DS2 continues to be bullied and continues to use the same coping mechanisms he has always used since he was a child, his system will always be out of balance. So he needs to learn a different coping mechanism for dealing with the bullying and his feelings about how he looks, a method that means his feelings are processed and released and not stored in the body where they disrupt the correct functioning of the body. It's all easier said than done though, but it is possible.

I have much more faith in Eastern holistic medicine, which takes into account the whole body and mind when treating your symptoms. But it is very important to find a good practitioner, hopefully one that is recommended to you.

Re your DS1 having loads of confidence, do you think your DS2, even before the bullying at school started, had issues with self esteem? Perhaps feeling in the shadow of his big brother and feeling he will never be as good as him? I think this is quite common with the younger sibling of 2 children. The older one naturally achieves things first and the second feels he has to be as good, and feels inferior if he isn't. As parents it's very hard to stop the second sibling feeling this way, I am worried about my DS feeling inferior and not as good as his big sister, even though I give him loads of enouragement and praise all the time.

Your SIL's and the dynamic with your MIL and DH sounds just like things with my sisters, myself and our parents. Even down to my sisters in private calling our dad psychotic, but to his face being as sweet as pie and vying to be the 'favourite'. And like your DH, at least I was honest to and about our parents, but my honesty went completely unappreciated. They all would prefer to continue living their lie than face the truth about each other. I think you are right to keep your distance from your InLaws and I'm glad you AM is helping you understand their behaviour. Once you can see The Drama, like a member of the audience, objectively, it is indeed extremely empowering. You can completely step out of it and know that none of their behaviour towards you is because of you, but completely because of them and their own issues of which they are not even aware.

I am sure the Toxic In Laws book will help a lot as well in this respect.

I can relate to your DH's fury at the injustice of it all too. I feel furious sometimes too, at how unfair it is that I was the only one who was so badly treated and because of that I had no option to cut off my parents and so here I am, alone, trying to bring up 2 young DC's, with no family help or support through no fault of my own and on top of that having this bl**dy eczema dragging me down all the time and on top of that being thought of as unreasonable and ungrateful by my sisters who didn't go through what I did and my parents who seem to have conveniently forgotten the years of abuse/neglect they inflicted on me. I actually bought myself a baseball bat a while ago and when I feel the rage building up, I bash the furniture and get it all out . My therapist even has a baseball bat at her place for clients to use so it is the approved way of doing things!

I know you are 100% correct about the value of writing things down as opposed to just thinking things over in my head. I guess I just don't always have the time or energy, but will have to find some time I think, although will be very difficult during the holidays.

You said somewhere upthread about my sisters probably not living as perfect or normal lives as I think or how it looks from the outside. I am sure you are right about that, I'm sure they each have their own issues and problems and worries. But I am sure their worries are the typical one's that go with being married and having young DC's and not enough sleep/money/time/whatever. But they do not have eczema like I do and it's really this one thing that sets us so far apart and makes me feel so sad for what my life was like after I had my DC's as compared to theirs. And the unfairness of it really gets to me. I was no different to my sisters, when we were children, I wasn't any naughtier etc, and yet I was the one who was abused by my dad and neglected by my mother and I was the one who has suffered so badly as a result and all through no fault or wrongdoing on my part. It was simply due to my bad luck in being the first born of this horribly dysfunctional family; in cases of abuse in childhood it is very common for the eldest to be abused and the younger siblings to escape any abuse. No explanation seems to be given in any of the books I have read as to why this should be so, although Alice Miller does say that the first child is the first opportunity the parents have to subconsciously re-act their own childhood 'Drama's'. So it was sheer bad luck to be the first born, but it's very, very, hard to just accept this and not feel angry about it. It would help a lot if my sisters had sympathy and understanding, but they don't, so I have just decided to steer clear of them.

OK, sorry to end this post abruptly, but I have to go now, thanks for reading if you have got this far without falling asleep!

ABitTipsy my DH was the eldest too, and one of my MIL's regular sayings is 'oh dear, one always makes one's worst mistakes with the first born' with a sort of embarrassed snigger, which i guess she sort of feel excuses her from any hurt from all the truly awful stuff she's done to him over the years. its like, 'well, we didn't know any better and its too late now, but you didn't come with an instruction book so what do you expect, and by the way, what are you fussing about anyway,cos we did better with the next ones, so there.' i love the baseball bat idea and we've got one but i don't think he'd use it, he likes strimming with a vengeance, and chopping logs!

How old is your DS? Could you say to DD and DS after lunch every day, mum is going to sit and write some lists and things and give them a little game or project to do just for 30 mins whilst you do it. You can just put your stuff down in bullet points like memory references, you can always embellish them out a bit later. Draw a thick black line under them each afternoon when you've got them down, but leave a few lines so you can fill in more later when you've got more time to yourself. The black line says 'right, that's gone now, it can't impinge on my mind and make me furious, unhappy, whatever, any more cos i've literally drawn a line under it.

Are you going on hols by the sea? Can you keep the diary in your bag and give them a sandcastle building competition to do and start jotting when they start building? You could have a kitchen timer with you, set it for 30 mins so they know you are being fair and will not run on and get absorbed.

Yes, i do think my DS2 had issues of self esteem probs before school. My DS1 was very upset when he arrived, having had all the attention for almost 5 years, and he was vile to him, but this is understandable and we did all the stuff you are supposed to do to allay the firstborn's feelings of being left out etc. sometimes they got on quite well and seemed to have a rapport but it always ended with DS1 turning mean and spiteful and DS2 getting justifiably angry.
This is where a good hearted granny would have made all the difference, but we didn't have one, so we never had any help with dealing with it. we did actually adopt a nice lady who took them out and did granny walks with them, and that helped a bit,but we felt so on our own with it all.

Occasionally we'd ask MIL's advice or tell her the problems we were having and she'd just refer it to our SIL the counsellor and would then say, 'well, SIL says this or that, so it must be so and you must be wrong.' so we stopped talking to her about it. SILs 1&2 were having problems with their own children but we only found out through other people, we were never told. it was like we were the ones to be vilified and they were always perfect in every way. Like you say, it drives you mad! (Well, it could, and maybe that's what they are hoping, it sort of gives them a kick, and how sick is that?!) Can you imagine what it's like now when DS1 has joined them!! You really start wondering if its you, and maybe they are all correct! Then you talk to others who know them well, even some in distant family, and they remind you that its happened to others too and that it isn't you, its just that DH's direct family have issues and they are feeding off each other. its sort of like they have an addiction. its just plain sad. But you have to accept its how it is and move away from it. In France they call it 'scapegoating' and it happens in families sometimes. One child is singled out for the bad treatment and sort of carries the punishments for all the others. Just like the bullied one in a class at school, which is where this thread came in at the start.

You mention Eastern medicine and i wonder if also you are interested in Eastern philosophy too. I do believe nothing happens for no reason and that although its just dreadful that each in our own way we've suffered, we will fulfil a purpose by turning this round and making good come out of it. That may be pie in the sky nonsense i'm just soothing myself through with, but otherwise i can't see any point to life. My DS had another horrid experience in a big city at the weekend on his way to a support meeting and rang today to discuss. He is confused and scared again. I say what i always say but don't really think it helps.

I just can't get my head round how a mum could be so unfeeling as yours, particularly with a DD with the eczema to cope with, but then i only have to look at DH's mum and the evidence is there for all to see and there must be loads of mums out there who are like them, and battalions of little kids feeling like you and DH did (and still do). There is a lot more i could write in sympathy with you, but suffice it to say that i truly SO wish you had had a nice mum but maybe you could even now try inventing one in your diary, describe her, and make her real in your mind, and sort of mentally rub out the old one and put the nice one in instead. You can imagine all the nice things she'd say, her concern for you, her kindness and always being there for you. Like with Tellytubbies, go over and over it lots of times so the brain really absorbs it and she becomes easy to automatically recall.

Like you, my DH wasn't naughtier, (he was actually more sensible and well behaved, but then he wouldn't have dared do the stuff his siblings did cos if he had, all hell would have broken loose). My elder DS used to try to wind us up, but younger DS i think tried not to as he could see how it wore us to a frazzle. Your little DS i'm sure will be just find cos his mum understands feelings and will always be there for him, just as with your DD. Having read all that AM and other things, you know so much and understand so much. And most of all, you obviously have a warm and loving heart, and that is the most important thing any child's mum can possess.:)

With feelings about the new thread and whether people will be understanding, its so natural to feel worried that others might be dismissive, and some may be, but think of the ones who will think, OMG that's just like me, and feel better just reading it. Even if they don't contribute, you'll never know how much good it did to people who feel like you do. there'll be people who've read all this unburdening i've done to you about my DS1 and 2 and think 'what a loser' or that kind of thing, but in the end, we can't agree with the entire world, but if we even only find one new supportive friend, then that's just great. Whatever 'will be will be' with the new thread, but if you feel you are comfortable going for it, then chuck out your fishing line and see what you catch :) and i'll be swimming around in there too!

As to finding you, i still haven't found where 'Chat' is, can you tell me where exactly to find it, sorry to be so stupid! Just take me through the steps. I just meant about the title of the next thread, that if you decided which category you'd start it under, if all else failed i could still somehow find you under that category :). I'll be off line at the end of the week and back on on the 22nd. How does this gel with your plans? When do you think you'd start your thread?

Sorry ABitTipsy i didn't reply to the bit about acupuncture - yes i've had it and for me it didn't work, but i have other physical probs and had it for that and it made me feel worse actually. I don't think he has tried it but i will suggest it to him. We didn't have a good day today, the weekend experience threw him off balance and he's very down. I try not to, but when he goes down, i seem to go down with him. i just get so anxious for him.

I too don't use western medicine unless i have to. i never take anything except paracetamol now and again for pain. i was amazed how much worse homeopathy made his skin though, and i think maybe we just had the wrong practitioner who really didn't seem to want to know when it all got worse. He said it was all down to his mindset. Well, yes, maybe, but he didn't offer any help either. Like you i'm almost certain that a happy relaxed heart makes things function much better, but with all these wretched family things, its hard sometimes to move into a state of happy relaxation. i've suggested meditation and all that kind of thing but i think he just feels nothing i suggest will really work. To be fair, i prob felt just the same when my own poor mum suggested stuff like that to me. its taken me years to really get a grip on it and understand. The inner fear was greater, if you get me. What he wants is just to be told that he is not a freak or ugly, which is what i've told him, but when others mutter things like 'loser' when he goes past them in the street (or he thinks he hears them say that)then whatever i say counts for nothing. And the world is full of people who hang around on street corners in gangs yelling out insults to lots of people. So we seem to be in an endless no-win situation.

Sorry to go on and moan about this but today has been a really rotten day. I'd just thought things were improving a bit as we were both reading that helpful book. One gets lulled into a false sense of security! A nice glass of red tonight i think, maybe well deserved! It doesn't really help but takes down the frustration at not being able to help, a bit. But its always there the next day of course. Hey ho.

Do you think your eczema has lessened at all since we started communicating on this thread? I love the vision of you with the baseball bat but hope the furniture survives :). Maybe its just the cushions?

Hi Persimum, so sorry to hear your DS2 has had another experience that has dragged him down. How awful of people to mutter nasty things to or at your DS. Muttering things is even worse than saying it to his face, it's cowardly and pathetic. At least if it's said directly to him he can respond appropriately ie with a choice cutting remark of his own.

I am much better these days,(both in terms of my skin and my self esteem and self confidence) but I can well remember around 2 years ago when my skin was at it's absolute worst, and the looks and stares and comments I used to get, including from children who would just stare and stare. I was anxious enough about stepping out of the house but I had to, to take DD to school, and it would have been ok if I could have gone to school and back without anyone noticing me, but of course that's impossible and it was inevitable I'd get at least a few stares. I hardly knew anybody then either, so didn't have any friends I could walk to/from school with. Being able to chat to a friend whilst walking down the street makes it sooooo much easier and nicer, and if people do stare I don't notice. But I remember feeling just awful, even panicky about having to go out when I just didn't feel up to it, and somehow people pick up on your inner panic and stare at you even more. It's a vicious circle. If your DS could find some inner confidence, he would give off a confident air and I am sure that that air of confidence in itself stops people from making nasty comments. I think people can almost smell fear and insecurity and it brings out the worst in them, their inner bully comes out and your poor DS is on the receiving end. I can also relate to how your DS sometimes thinks he has heard somebody say something to/about him when perhaps they might not have. I tend to assume if somebody is laughing near me they are laughing at me and the way I look. Or if somebody whispers something near me I think they must be whispering about me. Perhaps I have developed a degree of paranoia after years and years of stares and looks etc. Perhaps your DS has too? But who can blame us? If we could go out and about without being stared at I don't think we'd be paranoid. It's a natural response to how we've been treated by some of the ignorant people out there.

I am wracking my brains as to think of something I could suggest to help with building your DS's inner confidence, but it's difficult without knowing him, even though you have told me a lot about him on here. But I will keep giving you suggestions in the hope that one of them might help. There is a charity called Changing Faces that helps people with facial disfigurements from whatever cause. I contacted them a long time ago when my eczema was really bad, but I never followed it up. But they were very kind and supportive and understanding when I spoke to them on the phone. They have a website (google and you will find it), perhaps you could have a look and see whether you think they might be able to help your DS?

I took up your suggestion today and left the DC's in front of the TV with their tea and went upstairs and wrote in my diary. I tried to limit myself to half an hour but I ended up writing for an hour! Could have gone on for longer but felt bad about leaving the DC's for so long. I wrote mostly about my mother, I still have a lot of anger towards her inside me. I think you saying how you couldn't understand how a mother could be so unfeeling especially to a DD with terrible eczema (and an abusive father) must have released something inside me. (That's a good thing, I am keen to get all my bottled up feelings out and I am often triggered by things people say or do, but it's always a positive thing when it happens). What I feel most angry about is that she totally neglected her duties as a parent apart from the basics of feeding and clothing, but then when the time came for her to claim something from me, she suddenly appeared and was 'present' in my life whereas throughout the preceeding years she had been totally 'absent' in all but body. When I had DD she popped up into my life, to claim what she thought was her just reward for all the hard years she had put into bringing me up. When the truth was she had put no effort into bringing me up, had not stepped up to the plate when things got tough, had not sacrificed her own needs in favour of mine, had not shown any concern for me, not thought about me and how I was feeling or what I was going through and she was therefore entitled to nothing from me.

Whereas you have been and still are a 'proper' mother to your DS. You so obviously care so much about him, and you show it actively, by being there for him to talk to, by being proactive and trying to seek out things that might help him. That is how I imagine a mother to be. Mine was more like a housekeeper or maid towards me at least. With my sisters she was much more of a real mother, I could see it for myself when we were growing up. I have given up trying to work out why she couldn't have been like that with me. I can only put it down to the bad luck of being the eldest again.

But it felt very good to get all my pent up anger out, and like I said each time I release some of my bottled up feelings, my eczema improves a bit and indeed it has improved this week and our 'chats' on here are why.

The way you have described your DH's family ie they have issues and feed off each other and are addicted to it, that describes my parents and sisters exactly. Inside I know my sisters hate my dad and do think he is a 'psycho' and they are always telling our mother to leave him. My mother hates my dad, they have always bickered for as long as I can remember. And one sister is always putting down and looking down on the other sister and mocking her behind her back. So none of them actually like each other and yet they can't seem to stay away from each other. They are addicted as you say, to something that is actually bad for them

I have stepped away from it all and have spent the last 4 years 'detoxing' myself of all their poison. And I feel so much the better for it. And the more I detox my mind from their poison the better my skin gets.

Perhaps your DS could use a similar process. He could try and purge his mind of all the nasty, hurtful and cruel things people have said to him over the years, with the help of a good therapist? Because you can develop self confidence even if your outward appearance doesn't change. Your DS probably has internalised all the comments he got when younger and he has them playing in a constant loop inside his head. If he could get some help with changing his internal voice to something more positive it might help. I think CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy) is good at this, changing one's inner messages to something more positve. Has he tried this?

Re Eastern philosophy, I do believe in certain things. Above all, I think the most important thing is to have a 'balance' in life. To take the 'middle path' and not go to extremes in anything. I try and live like this, not always easy though.

Before I forget 'Chat' is one of headings under Topics at the top of the page. Re the new thread I think I will probably start it under Health. I will have a think about the title as I want to make sure the relevant people can find their way to it. I want it to be relevant to anybody who is unhappy with their appearance and who suffers bullying and taunts and looks and stares because of their appearance and who suffer from a lack of confidence and depression as a result. And of course for people whose DC's are suffering in this way too.

We are away from 21 to 28 August, and you are away the week before that, so we won't be able to 'chat' for 2 weeks . But we both have plenty of food for thought and books to read (and I am going to keep up with my diary) so we should be ok.

I hope you have had a lovely glass of wine and I hope tomorrow will be a better day for you and your DS2. But if it isn't, please post and I will do my best to help you in any way i can.

Hic, ABitTipsy well yes, i did have a lovely glass of wine, quite a big one actually, and this morning i do feel a bit better. Spoke to DS2 on the phone last night too and his voice sounded stronger so i slept well feeling he was finding himself again a bit.

First of all, when i said i couldn't understand how a mother could neglect you like that, it was meant as a statement of total indignation and fury, like 'how dare she!', not of course in any way that i doubted that she did it. i do hope you realise that, cos i thought afterwards i hadn't put it very well. its great that you've started some writing and even better that you've been feeling a bit better too recently.

Everything you've suggested re DS2 makes total and good sense and i agree with it all. You put it brilliantly and with such understanding. The trick is of course to get him to see that it could well work and to run with it constantly. We took him to Changing Faces when he was a student. He said their approach was good but that they were dealing with people mostly with new injuries and not with the 'shame of bad skin and bad appearance they were born with' so he could see how it worked for them but it didn't work for him. i feel that you have it exactly right about what's going on (walking in the street etc) but in the end, till he actually likes his appearance/himself and doesn't care so much what others think, we are not going to have any fun with him. i think he is basically terrified of looking unacceptable and that fear overrides everything else. its a fear i can't seem to allay, nor can his counsellor, but i think he is going to get other more targeted help soon so fingers crossed for that working. i love him so much but it is so upsetting and wearing to go on and on like this. its sort of BDD but also paranoia a bit, but like you say, who wouldn't have paranoia if they've been dealing with insults and remarks for years and years.

Your idea about balance is excellent. You mustn't worry to suggest any more different things to help me help him, you've thought of everything and been SO kind and helpful. (Your 2nd paragraph is just wonderful in particular) its up to him, i know, to follow up these things inside himself and to conquer his fear. i know that's hard of me to say, but he's just going to have to do it somehow or sink. he knows we are always there for him and will help in any way we can. i think a new approach via therapy, which he has set up, may do some good. i think maybe my batteries are running a bit low :) i know he does run this stuff in a loop in his head, like you said. he knows he does all this stuff and he has the insight to see it, but he just can't seem to pull himself out of the hole. he tries hard i feel sure and is a really good man, but i think we need almost like an explosion to blast him out of the hole once and for all. and i'm all out of dynamite :)

The love of a mother is so important, so vital, and my DH is still striving to get it from his at his advanced age, but it breaks my heart to see his struggle and to know that he never ever will cos she just hasn't got it to give to him. if she wasn't able to give it to the others either it would be bearable, but she was/is in her own strange way, by her sort of collusions and manipulations. he says its that that hurts him most, that she goes into a huddle with them. i get the feeling that that's one of the worst things for you too. They 'pick things over' together and then in conversation on the phone she interrogates us for information about what we are doing, and its so obvious she wants it so she can then share it with them for the next session (the siblings, wives and families) and you can almost see their wise little old heads nodding with joint disapproval as they decide what they think is best for us and what we should be doing! (Now who is being paranoid?! :) ) its quite funny to watch if you can detach yourself like you said about reading AM, cos its so obvious what she's doing but she thinks we are so stupid we don't realise. The latest thing is that we all think we should sell our house and my DH retire. we have a nice house and they have always been rather upset by that. we live in a part of UK which is cheaper than where they all live, so we got more size-wise for our money when we bought it than they did for theirs and that upset them too. we might sell one day but frankly its none of their business. MIL makes endless subtle hints about it, and what it might be worth, etc etc. we pretend we don't notice. much more fun than rising to the bait.

Interesting what you say about your family who do sound like they don't like each other much, (they sound like rats in a bag if that isn't rude of me, all fighting and squabbling) and our lot don't like each other either. Ours are all scared of each other and busy fighting for pole position in the regard of MIL when they openly admit that that regard isn't really worth having. i guess what she does with her chequebook has a bearing on it though. i'm sure it has for my DS1, to my horror.

i'm hoping 'Toxic Inlaws' will arrive in time for holiday reading. i have a nice pile to study now, thanks to you and others who kindly contributed to this thread. i'm going to write more, like you, when i'm away if i can. i love the picture of your angelic DCs eating their tea and giving you a bit of quality writing time. They sound really lovely.

Will add to this later re new thread etc. thanks so much for your support, i do feel a bit better today. speak again soon. :)

Hi there, just a quick post having just read your last post, will post more later.

Am glad you feel better today and that your DS seems to be feeling stronger too.

I just wanted to say I know that you didn't mean you didn't believe me when you said about how a mother could be so unfeeling like mine, so please don't worry on that score. She was my mother and I can't believe it either as I simply cannot imagine leaving either of my DC's totally alone to try and cope with whatever problem they might have. I think she is very weak and scared of anything hard or difficult. But she will pop up out of nowhere to share in your good news or success. A 'fairweather' mother, just like a fairweather friend, and about as useful as a mother as a chocolate teapot. She didn't deserve me, I deserved a far better mother than her, it was bad luck to have ended up with her as my mother, and I'm so glad I have cut her out of my life, should have done it a lot sooner.

I can understand you feeling you have run out of steam wrt how to help your DS. I think you are right in that he has to want to change and believe he can change, all you can do is support him, but you can't make the changes for him. He knows he has your love and support, he has to somehow find the will to make a change.

I think what helped me to finally break free from my parents is when me and DH and DD took an extended break abroad a few years ago. Being miles away from them made me feel 'safe' and having no contact with them for a long time gave me a chance to think and gain some perspective. Are there any 'retreat' type holidays that your DS could go on where he knows he will be in a 'safe' place? ie where he knows nobody will give him funny looks or stares or make nasty comments etc? This will give him a chance to relax and be himself, knowing he is in the company of safe and supportive people and it might kick start the change he wants to make?

I know there are retreats for people who have suffered trauma in their lives, or who are in crisis and just need to be in safe and supportive surroundings, I will try and look some up and post you the links.

Ok, have to go now, back a bit later.

Sorry, just a bit more. Yes, you're right that it does hurt the most that my mother could be a proper mother to my sisters but not to me. Even if she didn't feel the same love for that she felt for them, she could have pretended. I had problems bonding with DD because of my PND etc whereas I bonded instantly with DS. For a long time I found it much easier to love DS than DD, I felt numb inside towards DD. Even though it was incredibly hard, I never acted out my inner feelings, I always pretended I loved DD as equally as I loved DS. I treated them both the same. I couldn't bear it if DD watched me be loving and caring towards DS but not to her. And yet that's how my mother treated me and I just don't understand how a mother can do that, can ignore and abandon one of her children whilst doting on the others.

There must be something severely wrong with my mother and your DH's mother if they can live with themselves in this situation. I know I couldn't. It would tear me up inside if I gave one child love and not the other. Poor little innocent children, all they need is love and they can't understand why they are not getting it whilst their siblings are. And the worst thing about my mother was that she later on blamed me for our terrible relationship, saying that I was difficult to talk to. That is one of the things that I am most angry about. She has not taken even one second to reflect upon herself and her own behaviour and the big part she played in how our relationship got so bad that I eventually just ended it. According to her, it's somehow all my fault, all along she has been the perfect mother and I am unreasonable and ungrateful in thinking she was not good enough.

I was thinking about what your DH's mother said to him, about making the worst mistakes on your eldest child. She sounds like my mother. She doesn't seem to think for one second how her words and behaviour might make your DH feel. How she is hurting her own son. When he has done nothing but love her and all he wants from her is to love him too. And the colluding behaviour. I found out by accident that my mother and sisters used to discuss me behind my back, mostly complain and moan about me. I think my mother actually liked the feeling of being in a little 'gang' with my sisters, it was them 3 against me and they also hated my dad. Perhaps it would have been ok if me and my dad were close and in our own little gang but we weren't. He was highly abusive towards me so we weren't close at all.

Even though my mother and sisters appear close, I have read enough about dsyfunctional families to know that their relationship is not healthy. My mother is like a child, and it's as if my sisters have taken on the role of parents to my mother. My mother loves playing the victim and my sisters get completely sucked in to acting as her 'rescuers' and me and my dad are the 'baddies'. And I am sure it's the same with your DH and his mother/sisters. They might look like they are close and loving, but it's not real and not a healthy loving relationship between a mother and her children. And how awful that your DS1 joins in with them. I hope that one day he sees through it all and realises your love for him is real, not your MIL's.

I do feel angry that every day I have to face the world with my skin scarred and damaged by the eczema and medication I felt forced to use when the eczema was really bad, whilst my parents are in relative good health and don't seem to be suffering in any way. I know they feel they are losing out on seeing their grandchildren, my DC's, but that is the only way in which they appear to be suffering. They certainly don't care that they no longer have any contact with me, their only loss is the grandchildren. And they still have a relationship with my 2 sisters and see their DC's so overall all they have lost is 1 daughter and 2 grandchildren; they still have 2 daughters and 3 grandchildren so it's not all that bad. I am the one who has suffered the most, and am still suffering a huge loss in my quality and enjoyment of life because of my eczema and life is so much harder because of it too. I feel angry at how unfair this is. Why am I suffering and they are not? It's like I am paying the price for something but I don't know what it is because I know I have not done anything wrong. I wish I could vent my anger on my parents instead of just bashing the furniture with my baseball bat. I think that would make me feel a whole lot better.

Just a bit more. I feel angry at the time and money spent on going to see doctors/alternative therapists etc. Time that I could have spent doing so many other things. The time spent just being at home because I was too scared depressed to go out because of other people looking and staring and also seeing all the pretty and beautiful and normal people out there able to go about their lives unhindered with a problem like mine. It makes me so angry because I know it didn't have to be this way for me. It turned out this way because of my parents, their abuse and neglect. If I hadn't been abused, I wouldn't have this eczema and my life would be so different, happier and more productive, fulfilling and satisfying. I say no to doing things that I would actually love to do like going out to social events and even applying for jobs, because I just cannot take the looks and stares I know I will get. I hate looking so different to everyone else. It makes me feel so lonely and isolated. Like I am trapped in a world that is seperate from everyone else, where I can look on the rest of the world but not feel a part of it. Like I am always on the outside of things, not inside, not included. And this is because of my eczema, which was caused by my own parents. And they have no idea. They have no idea what they should bear responsibility for. They think my eczema has a mysterious and unknown cause. They think I may be allergic to some food or something. They don't know that they are the cause. I want to tell them but I don't know how. I don't know to explain it. And I am sure they won't believe me anyway. They don't want to take the blame or responsibility for anything. They would rather blame me. It's all my own fault, I'm just unreasonable and horrible and ungrateful. They are perfect and even if they're not, it wasn't their fault anyway and they did ok with my 2 sisters, so what am I complaining about? It must be me with the problem, not them, because my sisters don't hate them like I do. But it was as if my sisters had a completely different set of parents who just looked like my parents. They treated my sisters completely differently to me. If they had treated me how they treated my sisters, things would not have turned out like this. And I feel angry they can even think this because they know, they know how they treated me. They try and pretend they can't remember. But of course they can. They are denying it all to protect themselves. They would rather save themselves than help me.

I often think about writing my parents a letter telling them how they are responsible for my eczema. Do you think I should? I know they won't accept any responsibility, but I think I would feel a whole lot better just for writing a letter and posting it off to them. It would be like handing them or giving them responsibility, the act of posting the letter to them. Getting everything off my chest and handing it over to them. I think about it but never actually do it. Not sure why.

ABitTipsy you could try writing them a letter but once it reaches them, are you still hoping they will at last come around and see the error of their ways? I must honestly say i don't think that will happen, given their amount of lack of insight etc, but what may happen is that they will pick it over together and coo about it and also they will see how miserable they've made you and possibly that will give them a bit of a lift! A bit more to gossip about. Now i may be totally wrong, but that's the way we feel about ours and we've tried in the past talking openly to them or even writing to them but it did no good at all. They are like snakes, they wriggle out whilst looking all sad and understanding, and in the end make you feel guilty, unbelievably, for upsetting them! cos nothing changes, they just carry on as before but worse. but that is imo and i could be totally wrong in your case.

What you could of course do is write them a letter when you are away on holiday and either set fire to it when you've finished, ceremonially, on a beach with DH if you are by the sea, or put it in a bottle and chuck it out over a headland somewhere, always making sure that it is anonymous and no one finding it could ever trace you. But someone will find it somewhere, some day and maybe read it and carry away the hurt feelings. its the act of writing that does the good, but i don't think your family actually reading it will help much. My DH have often had this conversation and decided not to let them know how much they bug us. we are just not going to give them that satisfaction on top of everything else. Particularly by not putting anything in writing that they can all pick over together and show their friends.

There is a book called 'Cutting the Ties that Bind' which i read some years ago. in that, in your imagination you select something, maybe a large teddy bear and set it in a chair in front of you. then you tell it exactly what you want to say to your family, not holding back at all. (i don't think you whack him with the bat, although it might be satisfying..:)) Then you sort of imagine cutting a rope held between the two of you and you say to him, right, i'm letting you go now, and that's that. i tried it, it was reasonably OK but writing stuff down and setting fire to it was better i found.

I used to find too that adopting a proxy granny who wanted to be needed and had a really kind heart, worked for us when the DCs were little. We were lucky and found a really very dear one via a friend in a club for elderly people locally, and i used to pay her like a babysitter and she'd take them out to the park, show them all the wildlife, read to them etc and come home and we'd all have tea together. She told them stories about when she was a little girl. they called her Nana. i used to confide in her a bit but i wasn't big on confiding in anyone in those days. We also had a neighbour who was a great help to talk to. i really just decided i didn't want my MIL and co having any importance in my life, and so i substituted nicer people, rather like rallying the troops! But its easier for me cos i had that lovely mum so i knew what i was aiming at. its not so easy for DH (and you) cos you both didn't, and i feel he still wants one, bless him. he also so doesn't want to be left out of family stuff, yet they go in for such dirty dealings between them that really this is a lost dream.

You must see that you are not at all to blame for anything, you are a lovely warm caring mum, and your eczema is about to take the final curtain. By the time you are signing your book at the book launch, it will be a thing of the past :) This awful stuff which has happened to you is in fact an opportunity to do something amazing. (Please forgive me if this sounds trite and ridiculous, but i really think you can do it :) )
More later

Of course it isn't fair that you've had all those costs of sorting things out to get better, and yet, in the end, i don't think you can win by thinking like that. Nor all the missed outings and sadnesses cos of the eczema. you write so well, i think you should carry on with the diaries and maybe, if you get into the swing of it, write a novel, a self help book all about them, (with changed names of course), but accurate accounts of what happened. Don't tell them you are doing it, well not at first anyway, not till you've made really significant money out of it. :) use a pen name, and keep tweaking it till you get it perfect in your own eyes, then see if a self help type publisher will take it on. Harper Collins do a good series of self help books written by people who have suffered. So do many others. if it turns out to go well, you will make some money and that will go to reimburse you for all the stuff you've shelled out over the years, and in effect you are using the people who caused the problem, to solve it, and some. maybe this is an awful thing to say, but i've always reckoned that revenge is sweet, but all the sweeter when its well hidden. Even if you didn't get a publisher immediately, it would all be there in black and white, accurate, and helpful to read one day for the DCs. But i do feel you have a story that could be told to help others. it would be nice if the ending could be that you totally get rid of the eczema, and i think that should be the subconscious goal, and i just feel sure that you will do it, a sort of gut feeling.

Sorry, got the last 2 paragraphs out of sequence, but the last one is the short one. it doesn't make sense read the other way round!

Persimum, you have been so unbelievably kind and understanding, I am in tears reading your post. Thank you for saying I explain it all so well, but perhaps you just understand what I am trying to say because we are on the same wavelength. We seem to have so many common experiences, not indentical, but near similar enough that we understand each other.

I can't describe just now nice it feels to be able to talk openly about my eczema and my family, because the two things are inextricably linked, and feel totally understood. I think this is the first time in my life that I have felt like this. I have seen quite a new therapists and talked to various friends and even DH, but I have never felt any of them totally 'got me'. Some people 'get' the family stuff and I suppose I have never opened up about my eczema the way I have on this thread so perhaps have never given anybody the opportunity to try and understand me. But I have never felt comfortable enough to open up to anybody about my eczema, but I guess through your posts i must have had a sense that you would understand me and indeed you have. I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders. Like I said I have been carrying this stuff around inside me for most of my life, never feeling it was 'safe' enough to open up.

You seem to be able to read my mind! About writing a book; I have thought about that sometimes, but never told anyone and never actually got as far as putting pen to paper. But in writing the book I had the same idea as you, it wasn't about making any money (although that would of course be nice), but more about 'telling my story to the world', publicly, but privately as well by using a pen name etc, telling the world that it wasn't me, it was 'them'. Thank you so much for encouraging me to do this, I think I need a push to actually do it.

Your DS's are just so lucky to have you. I'm sure they have no idea, they take your love for granted like all children who are lucky enough to have loving parents. But I know how special you are, you are the sort of mother I would have loved to have had. I notice when you talked about Changing Faces, you said we took him there, I presume meaning you and your DH took your DS2 there. How I would have loved to have my parents help and support like that. I would have loved to be able to openly talk to my parents about how I was feeling, instead of feeling like my eczema was a taboo subject, something to be ashamed of, embarresed about.

I would have loved to 'adopt' a granny like you did. I still would. But have no idea really how to go about finding one. The DC's have DH's parents who they see fairly regularly and although MIL was horrible to me about my eczema, she seems to genuinely love my DC's and so I am happy for them to spend time together. I feel guilty sometimes that I have effectively cut off my DC's from my side of the family, but in the end I decided the cost to me of having contact with my family is greater than the benefit gained by my DC's by contact with them.

I re-read your post and notice that DH's mother uses her chequebook to keep her daughters and your DS 'close' to her. My dad does the same. Borh my parents seem to actively try and make me and my sisters dependent on them by giving us money and just doing everything for us, not allowing us to be independent and learn to stand on our own two feel. They pretend that they are doing this for our benefit, to try and make life easier for us, but I think it is for their own benefit. They do not want us to be independent and have the confidence to know we can survive in this world by ourselves. They want us to lack confidence in our own abilities and feel as if we can't cope without them, because this ensures that we always stay 'close' to them and do not leave them. I felt this way for a long time, but after I cut ties with them, I gradually learnt to stand on my own two feet and surprised myself with how much I could do and how much inner strength I actually had. My parents had always made me feel useless, incompetent and lazy and I thought I actually was all those things.

In a healthy parent child relationship, the parent gradually allows the child more and more independence and autonomy, until eventually the child becomes an adult and is able to fly the nest. My parents mentally 'disabled' me, took away my confidence so I was unable to fly the nest and I only left home when I had met DH and he and I moved in together. My sisters have left home and are married with DC's but I know my parents continue to encourage my sisters to be dependent on them, including with their chequebook, to ensure my sisters don't break away like I have. Because if my sisters were able to break away and take a step back I am sure they would start seeing the truth about our parents and our dysfunctional family. At the moment they are so enmeshed within the family dynamic that they can't see the wood for the trees.

Re writing the letter to my parents, I wouldn't do it with the expectation that they might change and give me the response I want. I just want to tell them that I hold them responsible for my eczema and all the distress and impairment and hardship it has caused me. As things stand at the moment, they have no idea that my eczema has anything to do with them, they think it has some unknown cause. I only made the link between their abuse of me as a child and my eczema after I had cut ties with them, so they have no idea.

Looking back, my eczema started appearing around the time my dad started being abusive. If my mother had actually noticed me, thought about me and was worried about me, I think she could actually have made the connection herself. But she was just totally focussed on my sisters, she never paid me any attention, not even after she witnessed me being abused by my dad. She just completely neglected me although it wasn't obvious because I was fed and clothed, but it was neglect all the same.

So do think I should send the letter? Purely to tell them I hold them responsible for the years of suffering I have experienced. I don't want them to go on thinking it is caused by a food allergy or something. I want to lay the responsibility firmly at their door. Even if they deny it, it won't matter, because I will have told them what I know and believe. There is so much evidence and research now that proves the damage abuse during childhood does, how it affects the brain development, but I don't want to start sending them research articles about it all, it's enough that I know it's true and I just want them to know what I believe and I'm sure that somewhere deep down, even though they will never ever admit it, they will know I am right.

I love your suggestion of talking to a 'bear', I will do that and I might have a bash with the baseball bat as well!

Sorry to be jumping about all over the place. But I can very much relate to your DH and how he feels about being left out of family things. I am the same. I was always left out of things by my mother and sisters. They would go off together on days out etc and not even bother asking me if I'd like to go too. They would tell each other things and not tell me and I would find things out ny accident and realise they had all known ages before. It really really hurt and it's only stopped now because I have put myself out of harm's way by cutting ties with them all. If I was still part of the family, I would be feeling just as left out, excluded and and on the outside as I did for years before I broke free. And if ever I tried to mention how hurt I felt at being the last to know, I would just get told I was being oversensetive and they had a right to tell who they wanted when they wanted so I just had to put up with being kept in the dark or being the last one to know. Well i decided I wasn't going to put up with it, not by trying to change them, but by leaving them and finding nicer people to be in my life.

I do feel a 'gap' in my life where family should be, eg during weekends and holidays when other people go and visit family or have family over, I have nothing. I want to try and and least partially fill that gap with nice friends but it's hard to make friends when I lack confidence because of my eczema and people are a bit wary of me because of how I look. When they get to know they realise I am just like them and am an ok person, but it's hard work to get through and past the initial phase where so much importance is placed on looks. It's tiring and draining and sometimes I just don't have the energy to make the extra effort needed so people can see beyond my eczema and see the real me, the person I am inside. I am sure your DS2 might understand about this.

Ok, better go, have been neglecting the DC's to post, I had so much to say and it just couldn't wait til later on once they had gone to bed!

Thank you so much for all your help and support and wonderful advice.

first things first ABit Tipsy - to send them the letter or not? Well, i guess it depends whether you want them back in your life, and how strong you are feeling about dealing with whatever comes of it. i must confess if it was me i'd get on and write the book first, whilst still thinking about the letter. You could do the book brilliantly, look at all the references you have from all you've already read, plus the way you actually write, so much 'from the heart' which is so inspiring to a reader. Having done the book and got it published, (and it doesn't have to be long and take ages, i bet once you started it would almost write itself in double quick time) i'd send it to them, with a little note saying something to the effect of 'this may surprise you but this book is all about you and me - enjoy and learn!'. And then i'd sit back and wait for the storm to break :) But you know in the very depths of your heart whether you really need to get across to them how they have hurt you sooner than it takes to do that. i just wonder if a letter would actually do that. i just don't know. You'll know what to do. Follow your instincts. if in any doubt, maybe wait and think some more. You've waited this long so haste now is not necessary. Wait and get it right.

I'm very touched by the lovely things you say and i really want to say in return that i do feel that your experiences have helped me understand my DH's family and in the process, helped to ease a great void in me, as the hurt over the years in their company has really got to me recently, especially when lying awake at night and mulling it over and over, which i know i shouldn't but sometimes one just does. You have helped me enormously. And of course with DS2, you have made such a difference and i don't feel so scared and sad now.

You are so so right about asserting financial independence and going it on your own. if DH and i could begin again at the beginning, the one thing we would change would be to go at our own financial pace, not be lulled into feeling we had to keep up with the others to prove ourselves and thus be loved like the others. it took me years and years to understand this. Like you say, it puts you in the power of the seemingly generous parents but it can also go the other way in the end and you can get caught up in a merry-go-round of bowing and scraping (and even 'hoping' sometimes once you are locked into this, cos there seems no way out as the financial pressures rise).

As to the 'bear in the chair', by all means bash him a bit but maybe he ought to wear a hat as if his little face is sympathetic looking (like most bears) it will make bashing him difficult as you will feel sorry for him. Maybe put him in a haloween mask or something.

To find a really nice 'adopted granny' you could maybe ask around, or visit some ladies at a club for older folk. i suppose you could even advertise in the local paper with a funny list of criteria, and get them to send you a handwritten application saying why they want the job and what they would bring to the arrangement and what they would be expecting (apart from babysitting rates) from your family. You can always get closer as time goes on, but to start with you need to set the boundaries and keep it professional but friendly. You also need to listen closely to the DCs and see how they react, as it must work from their point of view. i think, with your natural gift for insight, you'll know at once if its working. You can always say that it will depend on the DCs and say if it doesn't work for them, you want her to understand it isn't her fault if you terminate after a few visits, its just that it has to feel right all round. if she's nice, she'll be perfectly OK with that. if she isn't, then she won't be ideal anyway. You want one who is fairly sprightly (this makes me sound like we are choosing a labrador, sorry :)) and free from the need to use critisicm and who genuinely loves little people. We started with an awful one and had to diplomatically let her go after a few visits cos the DSs found her bossy and intimidating. (So did I!)

i actually think one will come along just when you are least expecting it, if it is right for you to get one. Life has a way of sending people across your path when you most need them. Look how you turned up for me, the first person on this thread when i was at my wit's end with DS2 :).

Yes we did take DS2 to Changing Faces, cos a friend recommended it, and like you say, they were very nice and tried hard to help him. A lot of lovely people have tried hard to help him. But again as you say, in the end, somehow he's either got to decide that life is worth living and he's going to over ride the bad stuff, or it isn't. And no one can decide that for him. I've got to learn to stop agonizing over it too, somehow. I really hope he manages to get on and through, as i did myself in the end, cos it was worth it really, looking back. But his upbringing was different from mine, i didn't have DS1 to cope with as a brother, but i did have a very difficult dad who was a nightmare to live with, both for me and my mum. It wasn't his fault, he was ill, but it made our lives pretty hellish.

Being left out is horrible. As i said at the beginning of this thread, DS2 was left out at school when aged 5 and just couldn't bear it. My DH is still left out now, from his strange family, but he is made livid by it and wants to sort them out but knows they wouldn't take the slightest bit of notice of him anyway and would prob say i had put him up to it. I do feel though that allowing them to hurt us by leaving us out, is giving them the power, and we don't need to do that. We've got to fill our lives with other lovely things so they become sort of irrelevant and fade into the background. You put it well when you talk about feeling the gap where the family ought to be, i know that feeling well. i also get this desperate need to explain and justify myself, but even as i do my heart sinks as i dig myself deeper in and bare more of my soul for them to mangle. For me, the secrecy now really is what keeps me sane. (I do like a bit of revenge though, i confess, so i think you should bash that bear if it helps, but maybe not in front of the DCs as they might feel sorry for him, or might tell their friends :) :).

must go and think of what to make for supper, but more tomorrow. You are doing great stuff, keep smiling! :)

Forgot to say, your idea about a break away is very good. DS2 has long talked about that. we wondered about a holiday with people learning stuff, like Skyros, but he again feels that wherever he goes, people will back off or make remarks re his appearance. (I'm sure they won't cos there's nothing to make remarks about but i think he needs to do some more work on his own reactions first, so that he is better armed for what he perceives to be happening).

He also wants to do some charity work somewhere in the world later, when he can leave his company to be run by others. But its obvious that till he feels a bit better about himself, in his heart, none of this is going to take place and be effective.

I am well into Alice Miller now and finding it intriguing and very enlightening. I'm looking anew at my own childhood and realising why i am such a secret person now, mainly cos my mum was prone to talking about me (although kindly meant) to her friends, and i felt vulnerable on that score.

i recently tried, in an email, to explain our situation vis-s-vis DH's family to a relative, and have not had a reply yet. i find the waiting and not knowing the reaction the other end very nerve-wracking. it could go either way. if the person is not understanding and 'runs with the pack' i know i shall regret what i wrote. if the person empathises, it will maybe help. i was put in a situation, not of my choosing, where something needed to be said by way of explanation.

I realise that for you, sending the special letter is more just to tell them how you feel and you are not expecting empathy. but supposing you get feigned empathy and they start coming round and making up to you? Would you believe that leopards can change their spots, and if not, maybe its good to have a plan of action roughly ready to deal with that situation. Maybe i'm too defensive but i like to be prepared for all probabilities and then i normally don't get shocked and caught unawares. For me its back to the dignity thing. If i have lost all else, at least i can keep that. Some counsellors would prob say that's unwise, but i find its essential for me, and also i guess for DS2. (Maybe we are genetically programmed to be dignified :). Oscar Wilde apparently said he cared so much for his dignity that he preferred not to stand on it. I don't go along with that myself. I think i use mine like a lily pad.

A bit more, re the gap one feels etc. My DH says its the utter injustice of it all that gets to him. Like you, he did nothing wrong (except maybe he was open and chatty with people outside the home and MIL didn't like that, as some of them might have been deemed by her to be unsuitable). He was just open and honest and trusting. i hope you don't mind but i read him your last post and he was so in agreement with what you said, i could see it made him feel better.

When eventually 2 SILs came on the scene and the one who fancied herself as a bit of a psychologist (tho she wasn't one at all) she started causing more dissention and winding the other SIL up, jockeying for position and telling us what we should and should not say to DH's parents cos she reckoned she knew best. So a tricky family situation gradually became ten times worse. We were at the bottom of the pile anyway so we just kept our heads down and were generally just regarded as 'a problem'. We moved away to another part of UK from them all. Excellent move. One SIL and DH went to live abroad for long spells. Other psychi-type SIL could then move herself into a more powerful situation than ever and charmed FIL amazingly. Her DH, always ambitious, became more so, driven by her and her mother and with his own parents egging him on. FIL and MIL rolled over in complete worship and gave endless adulation (and material goodies too quietly, which made it harder for us to compete without the same input, but at that time we still felt if we came up to BIL and SIL's standard, we might get some regard. Silly idea.) Things got worse and worse, and we provided wonderful topics of conversation like my miscarriages in particular and my dad's mental illness which would of course mean that i was also crackers, even if it was not obvious, it would come out sooner or later. To the extent that altho very young and not long married, i felt i must hold my emotions together and not cry about losing them, in their funerals etc for fear of weakening myself in front of this group of self satisfied individuals, as i then had no one on my team except my rather nervous DH.

So you can well imagine how ghastly it is that DS1, having always been fairly aware that his dad was never flavour of the month with them all, (his mum of course was much much worse!)has decided to run with the pack. They don't know what dodgy stuff he's married into but blame me for rifts in their family and now his. I would quite like DH to say what he privately says to me, to them directly, but he is non combative and he says he just daren't. So yes, this makes me feel a very big gap, and makes me feel sort of sidelined and tbh, furious at times. i wish he wasn't so reluctant to tell them what he really feels, but at the same time, he says he has tried in the past and they just won't hear it, and i can see it makes him ill and his head spin with fear even to contemplate it. So he talks about it instead.

I guess I'm just sad cos to the best of our ability, we have lovingly raised 2 DSs. One has told us he doesn't want us anymore (which i guess one has to accept, that is up to him and i do realise its mostly cos of the family he's gone into) and the other one can't have fun with us cos he's so worried out how he looks to the world! So instead of having good times together, we rarely see either of them. i sometimes wonder why we had kids at all but then i look at the pics of when they were little and remember all the joy of being with them, the fun things we did, the little things they used to say. i wouldn't have missed any of that for the world. i just wish my own mum had been there to be with us, and even my dad with his illness. You can see that there is no way we can get MIL and co involved in DS2's problem. We did a little bit once and it was the biggest mistake one could ever have made. So we feel very alone with it all.

One might think that all the SIL's DCs would have turned out perfect, but interestingly, they also have had a few major problems but we only find out by chance. MIL never wants to admit it. Meantime they are befriending our 'poor' DS1 who is enjoying all their attention and the mud slinging about his parents, and of course MIL's ever open chequebook.

Oh dear, what a rant, sorry. I was just trying to say i understand the feeling of 'the gap' you refer to. But you have become aware of things much earlier, with your DCs, even to the extent you had the sense to go abroad. So your DCs will be just fine, cos you've got proper distance both physically and emotionally and financially in time. That's just what we should have done much sooner than we did. Maybe in the end we will also live abroad, but hopefully DS2 will come along too and set up home there one day nearby so we can have some fun, hopefully before we are on zimmers or worse! :) Ironically, we are still caring for MIL, pretending that we are not fazed by any stuff she's done, and keeping our dignity. I feel if at least we do our best for her, in the end if there is any justice, things will come right, and there's nothing we can reproach ourselves for. I do wonder tho if we could have done better for our DCs, but its too late now and we just have to move forward.

Hi Persimum, hope you've had a good day. I'm feeling a bit emotional and utterly exhausted. I am sure it's my hormones and time of the month, hopefully I'll be better tomorrow.

Your DS2 sounds so lovely. It's so nice that he wants to go and do charity work somewhere. I sometimes think about starting my own charity, but I have my hands full with looking after the DC's, so perhaps later. But even later, I think I would only actually have the confidence to do something if my eczema clears up. I feel debilitated, just like your DS2. I do so hope that both of us some time soon manage to resolve our issues so we can lead our lives the way we really want to instead of feeling constrained and unable to do things as we do now.

What you say about your SIL's and MIL does sound awful. It's not dissimilar to my family in that one of my sisters married into a very wealthy family and she was the favourite anyway but once she married into money, well she could do no wrong in my dad's eyes especially, he worships money. I can absolutely understand how your DH feels about the injustice of it all. But I do hope also that he realises that there is nothing he can do to change these people. He can either accept them exactly as they are or leave them. I have chosen to leave my family. But if I decided ever to 're-unite' with them, I would do so with the expectation that nothing will have changed and they would continue to treat me like they always had and I would end up feeling hurt and upset and demeaned and diminished like I did before.

But cutting ties is not an easy option either. It's very very hard, it leaves you with a big gap in your life that is not at all easy to fill. But I would rather learn to live with this gap than be hurt and diminished again again.

It's what you said about one's dignity, I am trying to preserve mine and not let them step all over it.

Re sending the letter, thank you for your input and you make some very valid points. I think what has brought about me wanting to send a letter is my dad's chequebook. To cut a long story short, he has, via my sister, offered me some money 'no strings attached'. I initially turned his offer down flat. But then thought about it, for nearly a year, and then decided to accept it as it was a substantial amount of money and he had given the same amount to my sister. I thought the money would be useful in paying for the DC's school fees in the future. So I want to tell my dad I am accepting his money, but I just have this horrible feeling about it. The whole family ie my sisters know our dad has offered me this money and if I acccept it, and remain estranged from them all, I just feel it will show me in a very bad light. It will make my parents look as if they are being so kind and generous and giving and unselfish by giving me this money even though I am denying them their grandchildren and make me look greedy and unreasonable and grasping and selfish.

But I feel I am entitled to 'compensation' from my parents. They took so much from me. They took away my childhood and my health. I have been suicidal because of my eczema which was caused by them. I have added up that I have lost 14 of the best years of my life to eczema, years when it was so bad, I was completely depressed, debilitated and disabled because of it. It would take me days to list in detail all the ways in which my life has been impaired and my potential has not been achieved because of the abuse and neglect inflicted by my parents. So I feel that whatever money they want to give me, I am owed far far more, and no amount of money could actually give me what I really want which is to have had a childhood free of abuse and no eczema as a result. But that's impossible and so all I can have from them is money. And that's why I decided to accept the money after initially turning it down. I felt my parents 'owed' me and money was the only way they can now pay me what they owe me.

So that's why I want to send them this letter. I want to accept the money, but make it clear they will get nothing from me in return, no grandchildren, nothing, things will remain as they are now ie no contact between us. And I want to tell them that I am viewing the money as compensation for all the suffering they put me through both as a child and now as an adult and since I am sure I will always have scars from the eczema and medication I had to use, for future suffering and impairment of my life. And in light of all that, even though the amount they have offered seemed like a lot to me, now I actually think it's a drop in the ocean compared to what they really owe me.

I feel better for having got that lot off my chest! It's been swirling round in my mind for ages. I would really appreciate your opinion about what I have said. It is mad? I know it does sound a bit crazy but it's truly how I feel. I feel my parents are not being punished or really suffering in any way at all for what they did to me. Apart from the loss of 2 grandchildren they have got away with abusing me for years virtually scott free. So I think if they are offering me some money, I should take it and put it to good use, which I intend to do. We can use it to help pay for the DC's school fees when they are older and ease the financial pressure on myself and DH. Actually it doesn't sound mad to me at all, it makes perfect sense!

The only thing is that I am not sure at all whether I trust my dad. Like you say he might start making some demands before or after handing over the money (he will pay it in instalments over a few years) and we could end up in a pickle if he suddenly decides not to pay after we have made financial plans based on having that money. So I feel uneasy about it but otoh we have enough time for him to pay the full amount offered before DD starts secondary school and so I would not even consider a private school for her if we didn't have the funds in place beforehand.

If we didn't have the money she would have to go to the local school which is not bad at all so all would not be lost. I would just be very very angry at my parents, even more than I am now and I think I would actually go to them with my baseball bat in person......but let's not worry about that now.

I really hope the AM book helps your DH. If he can achieve a degree of emotional detachment from his family, he will be far less affected by them and their antics. Also the book Toxic Parents might be of use to him, by the same author as Toxic in Laws.

Re the retreat idea for your DS, I know there are retreats that are designed to be supportive and nurturing where your DS would be guaranteed to recieve nothing but help, support and understanding, I haven't had time to look these up for you but I will, i know they exist because I looked into it all for myself when I was at rock bottom not that long ago. I couldn't go in the end because I had nobody to mind the DC's whilst I was away, and I somehow managed to get through the crisis i was in with the help of my counsellor and DH and a friend. It is true what they say, what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger.

I hope you get the response you are hoping for from the relative you have emailed re your DH's family. I totally understand how neverwracking it is waiting for a reply from people. My counsellor advised to be very careful about handing over 'control', only do it when you feel very safe with the other person. I have sometimes felt like calling members of my extended family and talking to them about my family situation. But apart from one cousin who I felt would be supportive and indeed she was, I have felt very unsure about telling others as I think their loyalties will probably lie with my parents so I have kept quiet. It's hard, but friends and MN have helped a lot.

I love what you say about a granny will come our way if it right for us. I absolutely believe you are right about this and like you say, somehow people come into your life who are just right at just the right time. Isn't it amazing how that happens? And like you say, this thread is a perfect example of that.

Sorry to have jumped about all over the place like I have, I hope I've made sense. Will go now, need an early night, but will be back tomorrow.

Just wanted to add that I know how you feel when you said upthread about feeling very much alone with it all when your DC's were much younger because you didn't have your own mother and your MIL turned out to be no help at all. I feel exactly the same. I don't have my mother to call up for advice or help, not that she would be much good anyway, and nor am I willing to speak to MIL after how vile she was to me about my eczema. I feel very much alone with it all too. Like I'm trying to reinvent the wheel, it's already been done thousands of times, but I have no real access to the wealth of knowledge that is out there. Thank God for MN which has helped loads but it's not the same as having somebody to call and talk to who has been there and done that already.

And I also feel very left out amongst the school mums. Having always felt left out and excluded by my family I think I am very sensetive to this issue now. And also making friends has become all the more important for me because of the lack of family. And yet because of my family and my eczema I have not really joined in socially with the mums at school and now DD is in yr3 and they all know each other and are friends and once again I am on the outside feeling left out and excluded. I am feeling better now and am making more effort to join in with things, but it's hard, all the other mums have been 'bonding' and in the 3 years our DC's have already been at school and I am now trying to make friends when they have all already made friends with each other.

Everything is just so much harder for me, every possible thing. It's so tiring. At least the money from my dad is one thing that will make things a bit easier for us and I think I am entitled to that and deserve it.

Hi ABitTipsy, nothing you say sounds the slightest bit mad. I understand so much better,now that you have explained this, re the money and the letter. i think you are absolutely right on both counts. I can only site what happened to us, which was similar, only we didn't have the courage, even the insight at that time, to do the letter. We just did the distance thing and we huddled together and commiserated all the time. We used to do the drive back home from the south on a Sunday night after the w/e visits feeling like two sacrificial lambs who had been almost slaughtered but not quite. We used to pick over the awful events and fume, and it wasn't maybe good for us but we couldn't help ourselves.

We too were offered money, in the form of insurance policies for school fees. We knew the others were getting it too (plus a lot more sort of, under the carpet, went to them) so we accepted it. This locked us into private education, but where we lived, the state primary was very rough indeed and the DCs of our friends mostly went private, so we thought it was the best course to take. Looking back now, i think we'd have done better to move to a village and go for a little state primary school, but one does what seems best at the time. The important thing is, we accepted the money. If your sisters are getting it too, then yes, of course you should take it. And yes, maybe you should indeed write the letter, but maybe keep it to the point and put it as unemotionally as you can. So long as you don't have any particular hopes or expectations about a helpful response. I'm almost wickedly inclined to suggest you get the money into the bank and then write the letter, but that isn't being very responsible of me and i should know better at my age! I think you are much braver and more honest than me and i salute you for it. I would take the money and say nothing but i would plan the future and decide that i'd show them in the end how wrong they'd been about me. You say it was offered via your sister - is that cos there is no contact between you and your dad? Does it upset you that your dad couldn't write to you himself and make the offer?

We took the money in the insurance policies and one paid better than the other and they did actually run very low at secondary level, but we managed. One of my SIL's had a very rich relative, by marriage, and my MIL and FIL were always busily trying to keep her in the manner to which she was accustomed, but never openly acknowledging that she had so much unearned income of her own. This was a bit galling to say the least, and still is.

As to you and how you are feeling - well, you sound young and lovely looking but you've just got this unhappy skin that keeps messing you around, but this will stop, it definitely will, and you know that the person underneath it is attractive and interesting and intelligent and that no one could fail to enjoy her company. So its just a coating of something which blurs the image right now, but this will go, maybe sooner than you even hope, and then you will emerge again as the you that you liked to see in the mirror. You've had her there before, you know how good that person looks, and she'll be back again, and for good. Maybe writing the letter will do the trick, to take away the eczema, and maybe its worth giving it a go, just to see if it does. You've not got much to lose, except maybe if Dad gets mad and withholds the money after all. :) That's why i'd keep the letter factual and unemotional, just explaining where the eczema came from and almost saying you forgive them for what they did but all the same, its important that they should know that they did it, even if they find that hard to believe. This puts you in the power seat, not them. You could also say that in order to remain well and get completely better, its important that you maintain distance from them and for this reason you and your own family will be living out of contact with them. But again, this is just imo, and I am no counsellor, just someone who has felt a lot as you do.

I so understand about it all being tiring, but it won't be forever. It will get better. Its great that you are making so much effort to join in at school, and the more you do, the better it will get. I didn't used to talk much to the mums at school about my family, I found given half a chance they loved to talk about themselves and theirs. I only opened up about mine when i really got to know some of them, and some are friends to this day, when we've all got grown up children now. It was interesting how many of them turned out to have parent problems and sibling difficulties too, when i really got to know them. One or two of them know about DS1 and DS2's present problems.

Remember, you are not alone and you never will be. You have a good mind and a warm nature and you will always attract people to you. I feel also you will make a big difference for a lot of people having suffered so much, you can help so much.

Your advice re retreats will be so helpful, i don't know any and they do sound good. Whether DS2 would try one i don't know but its all useful info for when he's feeling open minded. Spoke to him on the phone tonight and he's still very unsure and worried. He doesn't like making plans for the future, outings with us etc etc, which i can so well understand cos you never know how brave you are going to feel and being tied into an arrangement puts on the pressure and then often you feel worse. I suggested he just plays it as loose as he feels he can get away with, and join in when he feels up to it.

It is indeed amazing how life opens up opportunities and the right people come along at the right time if we can just keep our calm and watch for good things each day. Its like this 'glass half full or half empty' thing. And hope is so important. Each little bit of hope is another step forward. I hope you wake up feeling rested and that tomorrow is a better day altogether. Try not to worry too much, everything will come right in time. I'll try and take my own advice too, my DH would laugh at me telling you to do this when i am the absolute worst at not doing it :)

A bit more ABitTipsy. I've been thinking overnight, and wonder if you'd like to keep in touch, not only with your new thread when you get back from hols but also just chatting between the two of us about stuff, how we are getting on with life etc. Personally i think it would be lovely and a fun thing to do. Let me know if you feel the same. The anonymity makes it easy to chat, so we'd keep that, but we'd be there for each other. To do this, if you'd like to, i'm going to have to get another server etc as my DS2 does all my computer stuff and i would be so worried in case he read what i've written and feel betrayed. That would defeat the object of all i've tried to do for him. So whilst on hols i'm going to work out how to do this and maybe get another machine too. Then when i'd got it i'd do the pink lemonade thing, so if you, say, check that once a week, eventually i'll be there. Snag is, i'm not sure how long it may take me to set this up, could be a month realistically. If ever i couldn't do it, or you couldn't, we could confer on the next thread you set up and let each other know, but i don't see why it shouldn't work if we are both happy with the idea. What do you think?

P.S. again! Wow, what a fantastic book is 'Toxic in-laws'! I have had my nose firmly stuck in it since it came today in the post. Hallelujah, i'm beginning to see some light at the end of one of my tunnels! Thank you, thank you, for the recommendation. I'm only halfway through, and wickedly left the ironing and all sorts, to lose myself in it, but tbh i just couldn't put it down.

Again, i do think it would be fun to chat privately with pink lemonade, we could have girlie chats as well as the more serious ones if that would be OK with you? Living in a family with all men, i always wanted someone to chat with who understood girlie things, and DS2's GF is nice but i rarely see her as she lives partly with him and partly with her mum and dad. I'd also love to hear what the little DCs are enjoying, and things you like to make and do with them. Hope this doesn't sound mad, and not wishing to be intrusive in any way. :)