Would you have had kids if you'd known how tough it was?

[Angiel]

I don't know if I would have, its a bit late now though!!

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Sorry you have my admiration whether you want it or not! To have 3 kids, be pregnant and have ajob must be bloody exhausting, so just take the priase that you're still sane ok!

Interesting points about feminism lisalisa, no time now but may come back to this later.

I'm also a working mum and don't think i'd be happy being a SAHM but I'm able to do 3 days which is a good balance. However part of my disillusionment with motherhood is the fact that it is always me, and not dh, that is making the compromises. I feel like I spend my whole life watching the clock and rushing. Rushing to get them up and out the house (be it a work day for me or a school day for ds1). On work days I also have a one hour commute into the city and i'm rushing for my train to get to work on time, usually working through my lunch break with just a quick rush to the shops for bread, milk, dinner or whatever else we have run out of. Watching the clock to ensure i leave dead on time so i can rush to get my train home. Panic if train is late and rush to get to childminders. Then get home and like lisalisas kids they are hungry again, so make snacks and try and get bathtime and bedtime sorted before they get too crabby with tiredness. Then it's time to make supper for me and dh (who doesn't get in till 8:00pm and lunches for next day. And this is when everything goes according to plan. Who is it who has to leave work at a moments notice if the childminder/school rings because one of them is sick...oh, that'll be me too. And then there's the guilt. If my train is late and i am late for work I can't make it up at the other end of the day as I have to leave on time to get the train home. And the list goes on...but I think you get my drift.

lisalisa- I think you're right. I've said before on mumsnet that loads of people give up when they have the second. I'm not entirely sure its to do with coping though, I suspect it may be that once you've had 2 babies you're "allowed" to give up. We're brought up now to expect the great career (not sure law comes into that definition- dh hates being a lawyer with a passion ), and to actually turn around and say "actually I don't want the career I'd rather be at home with my babies" raises a few eyebrows to say the least. As a pretty much full-time SAHM I've had quite a few comments- both from family (extended) and college friends about my educaiton being a "waste". I never had any problems giving up the career or whatever, but ime quite a few friends have struggled back after number 1, hated and loathed their jobs with a passion, but needed number 2 for the handy excuse (usually cost of childcare).

The problem is feminism only applies to women. It needs men to be feminists as well to make it all work.

Ooh, I suddenly don't fancy getting a part-time job

Seriously though, kayleighs day sounds like a nightmare to me. It amazes me that so many people say that working part time saves their sanity and then have days like that! I would make any kind of compromise to my lifestyle to avoid that kind of experience. Surely staying at home with kids is less boring that constantly worrying about late trains and rushing around everywhere.

Hmm. I didn't plan either of my boys and were I to be where I am now and not had children I would be very happy (and hopefully more travelled, more lots of things). However, given that I do have them I wouldn't be parted from them at any cost. I could stay at home financially if we planned a bit better but choose to work 3 days a week which gives a lovely work-life balance. I've just finished Steve Biddulph and felt guilty for 24 hours at his adamance that daycare for boys under 3 is completely wrong but woke up in the morning thinking I love being with them but quite frankly I hate going at baby/toddler place all day every day when there are things to be done (cooking, cleaning, shopping, going to the post office/bank, whatever). I also need the mental stimulation that my job gives me - it's taxing and complex and means that when I'm off and giving my brain a rest I enjoy doing Ring a Roses because it's a rest, relaxation, a different type of thinking. I hope (I certainly feel) like I'm a better mummy to my boys this way.

Lisalisa- MEN of course! While you're in the boardroom their dad could be taking his place in the home- you should both have the opportunity to do both, though I quite concede that at present those opportunities aren't always there. Far from being a disaster, feminism just hasn't gone far enough yet because it hasn't really addressed the deep-seated cultural expectation that mothers mother and fathers provide. No matter who's doing paid work mothers are usually expected- by individuals, extended family and wider society- to do the bulk of the parenting. And everyone loses, IMO. Dads don't get the joy of parenting properly, kids only truly get to know one parent, mums can't work without causing logistical nightmares, dads don't have the freedom not to work or to work less. Of course this is all very theoretical- real life, money and people's unique desires always get in the way of theory translating smoothly into practice but I think feminists need to join with fathers groups to spread the message that parenting in partnership is an ideal to strive for and this means that dads should be encouraged and allowed to pull their weight as parents. At the moment we're missing a key part of the equation- the father's equal input- and that means that mothers who work have exploding heads, for all the reasons you so eloquently expound.

jinxy Tinker.

Enid, financially it is not an option for me to be a SAHM, but I'm sure I would want to work even if the money was not an issue. However if money wasn't an issue I definitely wouldn't choose to travel into the city every day, and would get something local. I have no option but to work in the city at the moment as that is the only way I can earn enough to pay for childcare and have some money over at the end of the month.

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Top thread!

My dd was a surprise (not sure why, cos we weren't being particularly careful...) but I think that she came from the 'easy introduction' department as well . Adjustments needed but I wouldn't change a thing and hope to have more children.

It's been a real privilege to read the comments on here, positive and negative, and I can empathise with lots of the things you've all said.

The hardest thing I've had to deal with (or am dealing with, in fact) is the realisation that you will never ever ever stop worrying about and loving and feeling guilty over your offspring. Not even when you're eighty and they're fifty.

I have a vivid imagination and the pain of wondering what might happen to her sometimes takes my breath away (can hardly watch the news anymore!). I feel like I'm not self-sufficient or self-contained any more and it was the loss of this rather than the loss of any material thing or lifestyle that I have had to start adjusting to.

That said, post-dd, I'm now also fat, poor, boring and even more scruffy than before. But I love her to bits and she is worth every second of the more negative things. To all those nearly-parents out there: all the things you are worrying about now will be fine, it's all the things that you're NOT worrying about now that will be the problem...

I too agree that feminism has given us tremendous opportuneties but nothing is free and the price has been the huge responsibilities.I went back to work as a tax specialist 4 days a week after ds2 and 3 days a week after ds2 like many who have already contributed to this thread I gave up after ds3 life was just too complex,the constant clockwatching and hurtling from A to B just didn't seem to be serving much purpose.While all this was going on DHs career,once equal had soared on ahead and his earnings dwarf mine which were anyway taken up with childcare so for now I am a SAHM.I love them to bits and most of the time things are fine but there are days when you think you will climb the wall with boredom and monotony but then there are very few jobs which don't have some element of routine in them.

I always thought that I would be fine if we couldn't have children but now I don't know,the responsibility is draining etc but the thought of being 70 and having no close family to share my life with is horrifying.You have to stick with the bad phases ds1 ,now 10 is the most fantastic company I find I miss him when he's at school sometimes just because he has such an open mind to evertything nad we have such great conversations.

Of course now ds3 is toddling I feel guilty for not working,years of exams and experience may go down the drain,but have they,I just don't know,i would like to work in some ways but our homelife is so much more simple now without me working even things like holidays used too be difficult as the chances of us both being able to get time off at the same time were always difficult and what do you do with a 10 year old in the holidays,the phone constatly seems to ring with invites to play most of which would have to be turned down if I worked.

In some ways I am glad that I don't have daughter because I think I would find it very difficult to let her believe that she could have it all like I was led to believe.I am surrounded with friends who all have advanced educations and most have given in to reality,very happy not moaning but not quite sure how to reconcile the education they have with their lives now.

In short I woyuld definately have had them,they are my life and are worth any amount of missed career,travelling,socializing etc but I do sometimes think it should be easier to have a bit of everything.

P>S> I also want to set a good example to my sons as their partners will want to work I am sure. and sometimes worry taht they have seen me fail to achieve this and bring them up and this will colour their judgement.

ScummyMummy - "exploding head" LOL. That's EXACTLY how I feel.
lislisa - if you pass a very tired looking woman with an exploding head running towards moorgate looking at her watch tonight..it's me

I don't buy that, LL, though I think it's a very commonly held opinion and one we should be looking to change. For one thing it sells men short and limits their options and ensures that they become the very incompetent type people you describe. We have twins and that meant my partner had no choice but to muck in- I couldn't take over the parenting completely in quite the same way that many competent, baby-centred 1st time mums like me do, so my partner learned too and he learned good. He can do nutritious meals and banana buying and shirt washing. We're different people and I'm sure part of that difference is gender based but I don't think one of us is a better parent than the other. My sons certainly don't think so, anyway. My partner can and does parent with the best of them. He's good and I'm good and neither of us can multi task!
I do accept that women may tend to want to be home with the children more than men do but I don't think that's due solely to biology. I think it's also fostered by antiquated ideas of what men and women can do well. While we accept that women can do practically everything, (while acknowledging that they will probably die of overwork in the attempt) and would, rightly, expect to be slaughtered for expressing the view that intrinsically a woman cannot match up to a man in the workplace, we seem content to stick with the view that in the home men are crap and can't measure up to a woman. Surely that view needs an update for the 21st century?

I think that Scummy has a very good point. When I was in hospital having ds2 (and staying for as long as they would let me for the rest!) dh didn't just cope he behaved like I would - he did all the washing, ironing, cooking, cleaning (after a fashion) and shopping. He got ds1 up and out in the mornings, collected him after pre-school, they were both well fed and watered (proper food, not junk food) etc and was generally brilliant until I came home. Once I was home though he admitted that he no longer put the washing on etc because he was less aware of it because he didn't need to be as aware of it since I'm usually at least one step ahead of him. Men can clearly do just fine when they need to but mine admits that he just swiches off when he knows that there is another responsible adult around.

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Lisalisa, I was interested in your comment about your mother and a career/home. Do you think she didn't mention running a home because life was much simpler then and expectations are much higher now?

When I look at my house, it's a nightmare to keep clean and tidy because we have so much 'stuff' compared to my childhood home. There are zillions of books, CD's DVD's, computers, game machines, toys, clothes, kitchen equipment, you-name-it-it's-there. Our meals are much more complicated than my mum's menus, which were basically a variaton on meat&2veg every day. Even shopping (if, like me, you can't get online deliveries) is so time consuming, there's far too much choice and it takes me hours to look at everything! We didn't have a raft of activities to be chaperoned to and from and we played with the children in our road, playdates being unheard of. People often had families nearby to share the burden, too.

I'm not suggesting they were the good old days, I think life is much richer now, but I wonder if looking after the home and children just was't such an issue then because it was much more straightforward?

I would be very reluctant to concede one microscopic element of the rights and opportunities that feminism has brought and think it is very easy to overlook just how stifling and restrictive things were for women 30-40 years ago. Scummy makes an excellent point about the expectations of men in the home which I’m sure is essentially true. In any case, even if some women are naturally better at parenting / home making etc, they should still be given all the opportunities in the world to make their choices in life.

I can however see where you are coming from lisalisa. I think there is a real problem in that talented young women of today are generally under the impression that they will automatically be able to successfully combine a career with motherhood. Personally I primarily blame the work culture of long hours and presenteeism - that's what did it for me.

I was always brought up with the expectation that I would have a career and my mother has done a crap job of hiding her disappointment that I am chucking it in. I just hope that in 30 years or so when my daughter is potentially facing the same choices, society has moved on and is better able to accommodate true equality between the sexes.

I would be very reluctant to concede one microscopic element of the rights and opportunities that feminism has brought and think it is very easy to overlook just how stifling and restrictive things were for women 30-40 years ago. Scummy makes an excellent point about the expectations of men in the home which I’m sure is essentially true. In any case, even if some women are naturally better at parenting / home making etc, they should still be given all the opportunities in the world to make their choices in life.

I can however see where you are coming from lisalisa. I think there is a real problem in that talented young women of today are generally under the impression that they will automatically be able to successfully combine a career with motherhood. Personally I primarily blame the work culture of long hours and presenteeism - that's what did it for me.

I was always brought up with the expectation that I would have a career and my mother has done a crap job of hiding her disappointment that I am chucking it in. I just hope that in 30 years or so when my daughter is potentially facing the same choices, society has moved on and is better able to accommodate true equality between the sexes.

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dentist lisalisa dentist!!!

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Should I have daughters I don't want them to grow up thinking that their career aspirations should be any different from my boys just in case they have children of their own in the future. And I keep thinking of the day when they have gone and what do I do with the days if I haven't kept up and in the workforce? It's an awfully long time until retirement these days.