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MN Little Italy 15

1000 replies

francagoestohollywood · 09/06/2009 13:41

welcome!

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francagoestohollywood · 23/08/2009 21:34

notte!

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TheMysticMasseuse · 23/08/2009 22:18

there are so many ways you can parent wrongly on MN, seriously, how do our children ever survive!!!

dd2 took her first steps today (FINALLLLLY). i celebrated by giving her un'aggiustatina ai capelli and basically scalping her i feel v upset about it, she looks awful, my lovely baby...

Camomilla · 23/08/2009 22:37

oh, MM, evviva!, well done DD2!! I'm sure she still looks lovely though!!

and at your brother!

McC, hope you had a good day, I managed to get about 10 mins on my own in the garden sunbathing today, til the stupid girls next door slammed the door waking DD up so she didn't sleep til now!, so I understand!

oh, and I am loud when DS behaves badly, I do try to control myself especially out and about, but when it's the 10th time I'm repeating the same thing, well, don't really care what strangers think of me. but then how many threads have I seen about parents NOT parenting or doing it too softly... can't win in the MN world

anyway, notte tutti

Penthesileia · 23/08/2009 22:57

SPUTNIK!! OMG OMG OMG!!!! I read Children of the Dust at school when I was about 11 (boarding school, remember), and it haunted me so badly!!!! I couldn't stop thinking about it for weeks. Thankfully the Cold War ended a couple of years later, otherwise I don't think I would ever sleep again! Truly, it made such an impression.

Spoiler alert, sorry franca - but it's been in my head for ages and I've never met anyone who's read it! Eeek - the poor little dog dying at the beginning; and the girl having to marry a much older man

Sputnik · 23/08/2009 23:37

The first part is pretty scary and gripping, I read that straight through. It does have a more optimistic ending though. LOL at typical Brit attitude to death of dog as entire world is laid waste by nuclear holocaust.

You are welcome to re read my copy by the way if Franca wants to post it on.

I grew up at the height of nuclear paranoia and close to lots of military bases, and I think I has clouded my attitude to life a bit. I tend to have lots of food stockpiled and sometimes find it hard to throw away stuff as I am thinking in the back of my mind "this might come in handy should the world end".

Sputnik · 23/08/2009 23:40

We had a lot of fun on CND demos back then though!

DamonBradleylovesPippi · 24/08/2009 07:56

'and sometimes find it hard to throw away stuff as I am thinking in the back of my mind "this might come in handy should the world end". '

Sputnik so do I so do I!!!!! (and so does DH but different reasons I hope, henc garage filled with useless tatt). Oh I thought I was the only one with this silly thought. I have lots of rubbish jumpers for example that I kind of keep for these very reasons . I have not read that book but was scarred by cold war to when primary school teacher kept telling us Russia had a missile aimed at every city in Italy so I kept looking at at the sky and imagining this missile pointing at me. I also remember listening to that Sting song for ages and panic . Should I read it? Maybe you can pass it along?

DamonBradleylovesPippi · 24/08/2009 07:57

MM I used to scalp DD1 often. Now I have learnt my lessons and I'll never ever touch any of my childrens' hair. Leve it to the professionals. The best fiver I ever spent!

Camomilla · 24/08/2009 10:37

haven't read the book, but living close to Aviano was a bit like "well, we're f'd if anything happens".

Rosa, what area are you looking at on terraferma?

Penthesileia · 24/08/2009 11:17

Sputnik - LOL.

I was 11, after all! - it's the kind of thing that upsets you at 11. Plus, it was, like, symbolic, innit, for all the people who couldn't get to safety. Or something. Like. Err....

On the topic of hair, if you cut a child's hair, does it make it thicker, or is that an old wives' tale? DH is worried that by not cutting DD's hair, we are condemning her to fluffy baby hair for all time...

francagoestohollywood · 24/08/2009 11:45

Not sure if cutting a child's hair makes it thicker. Sounds like an old wives ' tale. Doesn't thickness depend on the follicle? boh! Btw my mum has been pestering about this for ages. My 5 yr odl dd has very thin, blond hair (I love it as it is still so fluffy and cute, though I agree possibly not the most gorgeous hair in the world) which my mother blames on the fact that I didn't cut it when she was little. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Oh the book sounds promising. School took us to see The Day After when I was around 13, which really made a big impression on me. But I've always liked catastrophic movies etc, so I actively sought this kind of things. I've always been scared, but incredibly intrigued at the same time by these things.

The funny thing about The Day After is that, the day after we saw it, our professoressa gave us a lecture on protected sex, as a girl in the movie was pictured taking the pill

Yesterday night I started reading Isaac B Singer The Moskat family. I read 3 pages and I'm already hooked

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Rosa · 24/08/2009 14:11

No Idea possible Mogliano Veneto but it has to be on the regular train route to Venice .
I am just not trying to think about it until I am back in Venice as it will wind me up !!!
Strange weather here sun and rain but I have heard that the heat has broken in Venice and Italy ..>Finalmente sounded terrible....

francagoestohollywood · 24/08/2009 15:43

Yes, perfect temp here. Still hot, but not humid. Cooler at night. aaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

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Camomilla · 24/08/2009 17:54

so just about in terraferma then! don't know mogliano, my godmother lived in Spinea, and her family are all around there, Dolo and Mira, I remember visiting them but can't say much, I was about 10 last time I went there. further up, I like St Stino, still on the train line to Venice. If I were to move back to Italy I'd look around St Stino, though I'm only going on what I can see of it driving through between home and Marco Polo, or Concordia, though that I guess would be too far for you and you'd have to go to nearby Potogruaro for the train to Venice

re hair - didn't cut DS's hair til he was about 2, maybe 3, boh, but he's got very thick hair. I remember my sri lankan friend cutting her dd's hair off a couple of times well before she was 1 as that was their tradition for same reason you said, but her dd was born with a very full head of hair, so not sure that it os true, boh. IMO once you cut it it looks thicker because you get rid of the baby hair, that alwyas sticks out, not because cutting it makes it thicker IYSWIM. in fact, thinking about it, my niece had hers cut quite late, and she has amazing thick hair now at 9

Penthesileia · 24/08/2009 22:50

Thanks for the hair replies! I figured it was an old wives' tale, and that cut hair gives them impression of being thicker because it looks tidier and blunter, IYSWIM. I shall not cut DD's hair, then!

Essay ahead - please ignore if you''ve not read Sophie's Choice!!!!!!

Ok. So I finally finished it. I'm really surprised that it was considered such an excellent novel, TBH (won an award, or something?). Overall, my opinion is quite negative.

Thoughts in no particular order:

  • I think it was largely over-written. For instance, you could've culled thousands of adjectives from the novel, and made it more direct, more immediate, less fussy. I know he references Faulkner, who piles up adjectives a lot in his fiction, but, frankly, Faulkner's uses of adjectives are much more original and strange: this just felt overdone and pompous. Perhaps this was a deliberate attempt, as I suggested before, to convey the younger Stingo's style; or to give a sense of the superfluity of it all. But I found it irritating and self-important. If this was deliberate, then it leads me on to my second point;
  • I found Stingo totally unsympathetic and unlikeable. While I think that some novels do want you to feel alienated by or dislike towards the protagonist (e.g. American Psycho; one could even think of Catcher in the Rye, but Stingo lacks this character's charisma), here I got the impression that Styron wants you to feel somewhat sympathetic towards the naive young Stingo, and see his tale as a kind of Bildungsroman, but Styron is no Goethe, and I found Stingo self-absorbed, bigoted/racist, misogynistic.

In fact, there was - in general - a rather misogynistic streak running through the book: the Leslie Lapidus and Maria Hunt episodes were - on the whole - horrible. I found their sexual politics utterly horrifying; perhaps this is more a reflection of modern mores; but I'm not sure. Moreover, the entire portrayal of Sophie left a rather foul taste in one's mouth: you couldn't help feeling that - as she herself seems to imply - she "deserves" the treatment she receives from Nathan.

Which again reminds me: Sophie - ostensibly the main character after Stingo - is really poorly characterised. I couldn't say now whether she was a kind person, or funny, or anything: her characterisation was so weak, that I wasn't left with a strong impression of her; only of the things she does or what happens to her. I got a stronger impression of peripheral characters - like Leslie Lapidus, or Wanda - than I did of Sophie.

On the other hand, Nathan is over-characterised, perhaps in counterpoise to Sophie. He emerges as by far the most interesting character, despite the story which is supposed to be the foundation of the tale - namely Sophie's experiences of the holocaust. In fact, I was left wishing Styron would write more about what I thought was an interesting and novel idea: namely, Nathan's intense interest in European anti-semitism and his indirect sense of personal outrage coupled with his having "missed" the war. However, Styron completely passed the buck on this one by making Nathan mad (paranoid schizophrenic? how unoriginal!), and thus rendering all his quirks pathologies.

Styron litters his stories with apparently necessary asides (he constantly says "to understand the next part of Sophie's tale, you have to know the following story"). Nearly all of these seem totally irrelevant to the main thrust of the story, and far from giving the novel depth and richness, or even from giving the novel a kind of superfluity (again, perhaps Styron was aiming for the "enormity" of the tale angle), these episodes derail Sophie's story, and make it lose its dynamic horror. E.g. the Duerrfeld (the industrialist) episode (which only serves to sexualise Sophie further for no apparent reason).

The lesbian obsession was also a bit much. Yes, obviously there would've been such events, but I felt that Styron's inclusion of these was more voyeuristic, almost pornographic, than anything else.

This voyeurism/pornography I found distasteful, TBH. I know there is a kind of Eros/Thanatos thing going on, but he seemed only to be able to do the Eros, and mishandled the Thanatos, I thought.

The defining episode - Sophie's Choice - is so bafflingly badly handled that I was totally amazed. He intersects the scene between Stingo's absurd romantic dreams of Sophie coming to be his wife in Virginia, which obviously is meant to represent and illustrate Stingo's utter incapacity to deal with the horror of Sophie's life and thus be dramatic and stark in its opposition of tone, etc. However, it just made the episode flat and trivialised, IMO.

Also, I found that Styron was - basically - unable to face up to the very subject of his novel: the holocaust. OK, he makes that point himself (e.g. referencing Steiner - the unspeakability of the holocaust, etc.), but if you're going to write a bloody novel about it...! What I mean is, he writes about Auschwitz, but obviously wants to duck writing about the Jewish experience of it (to controversial, politically dangerous, maybe), so he tries to play a clever trick and write about a Pole who is treated like a Jew, IYSWIM. This maybe gave him "permission" to imagine the holocaust, but it felt weak to me. Plus, I must admit, I do have an inherent anxiety about the overt fictionalisation of Auschwitz: placing Sophie in, for instance, the path of Hoess, felt ungainly and crass.

The comparative theme of the racism of the South/anti-Semitism of Europe was, I suppose, meant to make you reflect on the universal nature of human evil; just as the choice of Sophie (everywoman) was supposed to make you reflect on the universal nature of human suffering. But this fell flat and was rather patronising, and threatened to trivialise.

I'm sure I have more things to say, but this is more than enough for now!!!!

Sorry those of you not reading SC!

Penthesileia · 24/08/2009 23:33

I feel I need to qualify what I mean about disliking the overt fictionalisation of the holocaust. I don't think that a fictional novel about the holocaust is impossible or inappropriate or crude (for instance, Jakob der Luegner is excellent, IMO). It's just that by having Sophie interact with real historical characters - e.g. Hoess and Duerrfeld - Styron reveals how weak his grasp of it all is: he has to rely on the "shock" value (or Forrest Gump value ) of having his protagonist bump into real-life figures to make it more "real", rather than being able adequately to write about it without recourse to that kind of pseudo-historical weight, IYSWIM. It's like he couldn't make Sophie's story dramatic enough without this kind of interaction.

Sputnik · 24/08/2009 23:40

Wow Penthe, you have made me want to read this just to see how crap it is!
Glad I'm not the only one with end-of-the-world problems!

Penthesileia · 24/08/2009 23:46

Ugh - and by a kind of reverse token, calling the doctor who forced Sophie to choose Jemand von Niemand - "somebody of nobody" as if to ram home the "universal" side of things. Crass. Why not just have him nameless? He was nameless to Sophie, after all.

Sorry for going on and on...!

Penthesileia · 24/08/2009 23:48

Oh, hey Sputnik! LOL!

Penthesileia · 24/08/2009 23:53

I honestly wouldn't bother. It is over 600 pages long, and I found most of them quite boring, TBH. Took me ages to finish, which is quite unusual for me.

francagoestohollywood · 25/08/2009 11:19

Penthe, thanks for this analysis. I'm actually quite unimpressed by myself for having forgotten most of the book, but I agree with you on the whole.

Totally agree with Nathan being the most interesting character and what a let down it was to find out he has mental health issues, which undermine his desperation about the Holocaust.

I think that the only bit that stayed with me is when sophie decides to seduce the nazi guy (sorry, I forgot names) and her fainting in his daughter's bedroom.

I still can't gert over the rationality of her choice, it doesn't seem plausible to me, but then again, there wouldn't be a book if she hadn't made any choice.

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francagoestohollywood · 25/08/2009 11:31

Gosh, sorry, that wasn't that articulate.

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Penthesileia · 25/08/2009 12:16

Perfectly articulate - I get what you mean.

Perhaps I missed something by reading too quickly - but what do you mean by "rationality" of her choice (was there further discussion that I've missed/misremembered/skimmed over about why she chose Eva)? Do you mean that she could choose at all is inherently unbelieveable? I would tend to agree. I should imagine that before then a mother would offer herself, rather than one of her children. Or utterly refuse separation.

Do you think it was because Eva's flute teacher was amongst those selected to die? Was there supposed to be an unconscious impulse that - if one child had to go - at least the child would be with a trusted and known adult at the end?

Or a reverse of Jacob's "sacrifice" of his son (though not finally required) in the Bible?

Hmmm. Again I'm a little suspicious about the "misogyny" of it. Is it coincidental that she's called Eva?

I felt, somewhat contrary to you, that there was no rationality, on some level. Styron just presents the scene and the choice as no kind of choice at all. Just a reflex. But, as you say, here he may be out of his depth, in that is that a convincing reflex? Would it have happened like that?

Oh, and another complaint. I found it rather gruesome that Styron/Stingo juxtaposes the climax of Sophie's story with his own sexual climax and conquest of Sophie. Urgggh. I'm sure he was aiming for the starkness of this juxtaposition, a jarring effect. But it just felt, I don't know, disrespectful. Another degradation of Sophie, IYSWIM.

If a novel, as an inanimate object, can be self-absorbed, than this novel was self-absorbed. I was rather stunned, overall, by its superficial and unconvincing compassion for Sophie and other victims of the holocaust. Perhaps that was deliberate: you can't understand or feel sympathy if you have not experienced it, we are all as gormless and crude as Stingo, etc. But I don't think this was Styron's intention. Besides, writers like Levi have evoked the problem of "the drowned and the saved" without resorting to a fatalistic sense of incomprehension.

Oh, and blurrrrgh @ the orgiastic (and all too Germanic/Wagnerian) "Tristan und Isolde" type suicide pact. Plus, would Nathan really have chosen the method favoured by Nazi war criminals? That feels weird to me.

francagoestohollywood · 25/08/2009 13:19

Yes, that's what I meant, that her ability to choose was inherently unbelievable.
I thought the rationale behind the choice was that her son was older and therefore more capable to fend for himself in the atrocious conditions of the camp.
But perhaps my incapability to understad "a choice, any choice" in such an extreme, tragic situation says a lot about some kind of ingrained Italian culture of mothers sacrifizing themselves. Or maybe it's because I have the benefit of hindsight. As far as Sophie knew, her son could have indeed been able to survive the camp.
After all, she might have believed that after the initial selections one could have gone living in the camp. Boh!!!

Yes, I also detected a touch of mysoginy in
choosing Eva.

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DebInAustria · 25/08/2009 13:23

stairgate help again -does thismean she has one or we can use one?

Si abbiamo il cancelletto per la scala

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