Are there a lot of nasty people about or is it just me that brings them out? and what should be done if anything?

[WideWebWitch]

I feel like some kind of middle class reactionary (which I'm not, I'm a fairly hard core Guardianista) but I'd be interested in hearing what people think about this.

While walking along a quiet 30mph country lane with dp and 2 children this afternoon, a car came racing along doing at least 50mph. He was going so fast I immediately shoved ds into the hedge to make sure he wasn't hit. We were walking on the right side of the road on a pavementless road in single file, in daylight. At the same time I threw my hands up in a 'what do you think you're doing' way. The guy stopped about 100yds on, opened his door wide enough (but didn't get out) to scream at me 'Yes, I'm using the road and I pay fing taxes, so f off, you f*ing slag.' How sweet, and in front of my children too! So my questions are:

Have I been living in the countryside for too long if I think this is disgusting, unacceptable behaviour?
Is this why people keep their mouths shut and walk on by while tossers like this get away with abusive language and attitude? In general, I mean.
Why are people like this?
Are people more like this then they used to be? Why?
Should I keep my mouth shut at all times? (some of you may remember I was screamed at in the park recently for daring to ask a lone 7yo if he was ok)
Has this sort of thing happened to you or do you just not ever do things like throw your hands up in disgust (I realise it may be me!)

This completely spoiled our walk, any and all views on this, NOT just on my specific incident, welcome.

We struck a blow against yobbishness today.We took dd to our local park.In the 'peace garden' there was a group of 14-15 year old lads,drinking & chucking beer bottles around.The only other people there were pensioners & a few mums & toddlers.

As we walked in,one of the mums was asking them to pick up the glass ect & the lads were being very cocky,shouting at her & generally being idiotic.As we walked past,dh went up to them & said that he hoped that they were going to pick all the glass up.They looked gobsmacked & said that yes,they were about to & what was everyones problem? I then asked them if they'd got any sense at all & that the 'problem' was that a child could come along & cut themselves.They just went silent.I was pretty surprised,as I expected shouted insults,bottles being chucked at us or worse.But nothing.

I had to say it felt damned good to take a stand for once!

It'll probably be years before I'm so brave again.

Message withdrawn

I live in Northern California, and there are, I'm afraid, aggressive idiot drivers, but not too many. In Palo Alto, where my father lives, people drive and walk as if it were some tiny village in the middle of nowhere. I mean, I acknowledge that in Palo Alto it's normal to cross the street against the light when there's no traffic coming, but I think you ought to have the decency to at least SPEED UP and look abashed when a driver comes along wishing to drive through a green light! Also I thought the guy who decided to walk DIAGONALLY across an intersection with traffic coming was taking it a bit far. The insanely overconfident pedestrians and unlighted bicyclists are the main problem, although there are also venture capitalists, who my father thinks of as the Silicon Valley equivalent of pigeons -- all very well in moderation, but mostly they just clutter up the place and make a mess, in the case of venture capitalists by driving expensive cars and behaving as if this makes them So Much More Important Than Everybody Else that they must drive aggressively.

I had somebody once who disagreed with me about the legality of a right turn on red from a non-curb lane (turns out he was right, but the curb lane was empty, he could have gone around, and anyway, it's PERMITTED not REQUIRED). He followed me,
gesticulating, for 3 blocks -- I figure he's going to give himself a heart attack.

Talking of yobs - I found a group of charming young gentlemen at the bottom of my garden today When I asked them what the hell they were doing there, they said they were 'Checking shit out, bitch'. Lovely, eh?

The garden backs onto a golf course and there's only a crappy broken wire between the two. I was only thinking the other day how easy it would be for anyone to just walk off the golf course into my garden. Think I might get some barbed wire put up there now.

and dogs and alarms and searchlights eh snafu? Ooh well done for taking a stand mirage, nice to hear it works sometimes.

Absolutely www - or maybe just ds in full-on tantrum mode

Sbafu, wot, like this? (click on 'play ad' under the Boris Becker look alike) (warning don't click this at work unless you turn your speakers down!)

Snafu, even.

Do you sometimes think your mouth is going to get you into trouble, though?
Unfortunately, my "mad old bird" goes into overdrive when I come across rude and aggressive t**ts (see, I'm doing it already) without any thought for the possible consequences - so I will happily scream abuse at bad drivers who almost mow me down, admonish obnoxious teenagers, have had run-ins with the BNP, and on and on. Dh says I'm lucky not to have been beaten up. The purple mist obscures all reason. I'm now more careful as I have children with me, but I have noticed that Dd1 shouts after bad drivers so something's rubbing off.

this thread has been one of the most interesting i have read recently. i think in the cirumstances WWW you couldn't have done any more than you did as you had your children with you - even without the situation could hae been dangerous. if like me you re-play these things in your head with a he said this and i should have said that scewnario replaying - then i hope this thread had assured you that you couldnt have done anything else.

i agree with two posts in this thread. one saying that there are nice people around actually. the other that you should pick your fights carefully.

i have never in my adult life encountered a teenager act aggressivley towards me. i have however experienced who i would assume to be the most unlikely candidate of person to give me abuse. i was in a shared company carpark - our company owning just three spaces, i had a quick drop off to make and didn't intend to walk half a mile from the car park and fart around. i parked blocking in a car - the owner of which called the office and asked me to move my car, i ran down and he said "your not allowed to park there" i replied " i know i am terribly sorry i will move straight away!" i was about to get in and move as he was in a hurry but he started shouting at me- a man from a firm of solicitors screaming at me in his pinstripe suit. well it was one of those days - i had apologised more than once - but his tirade went into overload. so i just said " look, what IS your problem, i am going to move my car - i was in the wrong, i did apologise what else do you want?" obviously he didnt expect me to answer back but rather to crumple into tears and i was right proud i did.

not long ago driving to work on an A road i pulled out to overtake a lorry - obviously i wasnt going fast enough for the fuckwit behind me who then dangerously undertook me and mademe slow down to let him through before he killed himself so he could get infront. then he flipped me the bird. so i sped up and made wanking gestures and a few bird - sometimes in pairs flew his way too. glad i did that too.

london drivers are however the rudest i have ever come across in my life - that being said london people are really very helpful - surprisingly for me as i had already stereotyped all southerners unfavourably - i used london buses to get around for the last couple of weeks and the tube. i dont know london and had vague directions to the different places i had to go. everyone i asked tried to help me as much as they could - on every journey. one resident i had a meeting with kindly got on a bus with me and took me to my next destination! a bloody personal tourguide i had. posties are lovley and helpful tube attendants lovely and helpful what the fuck the bus drivers are on i dont know they really are the most unhelpful bunch i have ever come accross - that negative aside- there are nice people out there.

Do people think there is something to be said for getting more involved?

I am developing a theory - maybe wrong - that the general unpleasant behaviour you see from younger people is largely a result of them thinking no-one cares. So, a group of teenagers may start by throwing bottles around in a kids playground. Then escalate to abusing the older kids, then the mothers, then even any younger kids who get in their way. All of which happens over weeks of people ignoring them, pretending their behaviour doesn't matter, walking away when they see unpleasantness.

No-one wants to intervene because 1) they don't want a mouthful of abuse and 2)they think they're on their own, and no-one is going to give them any support when they step forward. Whereas, if a group of people act together and act early, they might be able to convince the youngsters that bad behaviour is not going to be tolerated?

It's a bit like parenting: we all know how much easier it is to persuade a three year old to do the right thing when mummy and daddy are in agreement. If all the people the three year old ever meets agree as well, then it's a done deal. I think even the most stroppy teenager, showing off to his mates, is going to feel a lot of social pressure when everyone gives them the same message.

So, in practical terms, the next time I see someone being rude to a complete stranger, or throwing bottles, or whatever, maybe I should intervene. Maybe I should also see if I can persuade other people to intervene.

What do you think, Mumsnetters? Shall we form a pact?

Gizmo, what you're proposing is the global responsibility that used to exist when I was a child. I knew that whatever I did, someone would report back to my parents- and they did! BUT it takes a proper community where everyone knows everyone else, plus parents who care... sadly a lot of parents in RL don't seem to give a stuff

Interesting idea Gizmo and great theory and I'd love to not ignore bad behaviour. But, to get called a slag and interfering bitch (that was for asking a 7yo alone if he was ok), hmm. I wonder.

This sort of thing (not 100% the same, but similar) has been studied, on a psychological level, as part of the work on Bystander Intervention. You may be interested in a good google on it as it is one of the most fascinating areas in psychology.

Research started (in the US I think) after a number of atrocities were reported in the press: rapes in broad daylight, where passers by / residents heard screams but thought it was either play flighting, or that someone else would intervene or that someone else would call an ambulance / the police etc.

These events - and the subsequent inaction - triggered considerable investigation and many experiments.

The phenomena is similar to the tramp in the gutter, left for several days, presumed drunk when infact dead - unaided because of their appearance wherea as a suited chap in the same position will be assisted, perhaps suspected of a fit etc...

Actually, with regards to intervening in yobbish behaviour, I think one of the key determinants of whether you or I will intervene is the basic feeling of fear:

We are now all afraid.

Road rage which results in murder, a man glassed in a pub over a spilt drink, machete attacks by someone who is mentally ill in a church, mobile phone snatching that terminates in a stabbing...

Have we become paralysed into inaction through fear ?

Ref: www's motorist - anyone remember the story of the man who stops his car after speeding past a young family (or was it a lone kid / teenager ?) and then drove back in anger attempting to mow them down... (reported last year on TV IIRC).

Ubiquitous television / Web coverage of these sorts of horrible events (which make make for great TV ratings), fill us with 'what if that was me' and perhaps that is why we hesitate to act.

All good points Hub2Dee.

I also think you can only have social control where a) communities basically know each other and b) there is an accepted norm of behaviour.
Neither of which applies in most of our communities now.

www: it was you who had the walking across a field / talking to kid / nasty verbal abuse off parents / guardians... right ?

I remember the thread afterwards, and how shocked / shaken by it you were.

It is that sort of event (and let's all be relieved no physical attack took place) that creates fear. It's a horrid feeling.

What, as a community, perhaps we need to do (nod to Caligula) is to create a climate where IT IS NOT US THAT IS SCARED, but 'THEM'...

I wonder if one follows this to its ultimate conclusion (ie. offensive individuals punished, but we're not above the law, hence those people need to be punished by mutually-consented method - ie. the police).... do we end with a police state ?

Hmmm...

???

www
I had a similar occurence not very long ago, however having driven the M3 M25 M1 for yrs on end
I thought I was immune
but when the twat in his sports car came roaring round and nearly took out dd's (2)pony and us, dh stopped him further up the road and when the dweeb got out dh said:
3 questions
you single?
thought so...
replacing a small penis?
I've heard money and a fast car help.

And walked back to his family
Sorry you experienced this it does make your blood boil..
I was so rpund

But again if you do look at it seriously, looking the bystander apathy that hub2dee mentioned: Is it a modern phenomena? As the victim of a stalker, who ended up being vicously assaulted, all of my neighbours knew about this and had been asked to keep an eye out

Yet when very next door neighbours heard me screaming and being beaten, they turned their pillows over and assumed a domestic
Now was that a reflection of my lifestyle or theirs?
That sort of screaming would immediately alarm me, but it never worried them
Why?
Curiously the person who came to my aid was a local crack dealer who was walking his rottweiller at 2am, as you do
Thank the lord indeed
Makes you wonder at times!
Very thought provoking posts on this thread as well...

This takes me back to Bea Campbell's Goliath, and even though at the time I thought it was contrived c**p I think there is something in the underclass and "emasculated young men" theories that might explain some of what we're talking about here. The Tories decimated our manufacturing industries, "New" Labour didn't reinvest, leaving nowhere for young men who would normally have gone to the local steelworks/mine/shipyard to go and learn a real trade; no discipline, no learning about providing for their families, having pride and being a role model, so they are on the streets with no money and nothing to do. The communities based on those industries are gone, noone looks out for anyone else and people are scared of their neighbours instead of looking out for them (HUGE generalisation for dramatic effect).
And when I am old I shall wear purple.

Interesting. Hub2dee, yes, the shrieking parents verbally attacking me while I did the school run with my baby (for daring to ask a lone 7yo if he was ok) did happen to me. And yes, it has completely coloured my judgement and feelings on this issue I suppose. I am much, much less likely to do the same thing again (ask a 7yo if he's ok) because you're right, I am afraid. I don't live in a nice area but I wasn't frightened before, now I am and as soon as we can we're out of here. I know this sort of thing could happen anywhere but I guess I think it is less likely in other parts of this city. And if people keep leaving the area will get worse. Maybe. Maybe not.

Hmm, maybe what you're (maybe) advocating is ASBOs? I think I'd have argued against them as a Bad Thing a few months ago. Now I'll be the woman in the park on my mobile to the police reporting thugs and louts and hoping they're locked up. Another thing happened, although I only saw the fall out and wasn't involved: a woman in the park at 4pm after school with her dog and her children was shot at by an air gun loaded with paint pellets. It really shocked her and although she called the police the boys who did it were long gone. I must have been dealing with dd, who's 16mos, and hadn't noticed but apparently they came right in among us (about 5 parents, assorted children including a load of football playing 7yos) and shot paint at the wall by the swings, which was being used as a goal by my son and other 7yos at the time. And when one of the dads told me what had just happened I was glad there were 2 fathers there because maybe these people had thought twice about firing paint at anyone else because there were some men there. The fathers rang the police, shrugged and said 'but nothing will come of it.' I think the perpetrators knew so too. No-one cares, everyone's scared, so people like this really are getting away with it.

Sounds awful, www. what a tosser.

I think helsy is right. "there is no such thing as society" remember?

It is interesting to contemplate.... what we want is to feel safe and secure, but often people feel unable to tackle the nastiness head on, so we either rely on a BIG BAD FRIEND / TOUGH BLOKIE, or, more likely, we call the police....

Now, if they were really prompt, and if they really punished... we'd be happy, and the nasty people would think twice / thrice before being nasty.... and we'd be half way towards a police state, nicht ?

Actually, perhaps I'm being silly with my own (flawed) argument. If we had a responsive, effective police force (yeah, and parents who gave a shit), then we could simply use their service rather than over-empowering the police and submitting to a police state...

I think I'm tired.

Yes, I think you make some good points helsy.

I sometimes want to live in a 50's film where the coppers came quick, blowing their whistles, caught the blighters and dealt with them sharpish!

We need an MN comune.

but with maybe a few more blokes, otherwise I'd just go round the bleeding bend.