just something to share

[threeangels]

I know war has been a lot more on many minds lately. I found this sight and wanted to share it with anyone who is interested.

I also want to say that any mumsnetters who have any family members going to war along with everyone else in the world will be in my thoughts and prayers.

Are We Nearing the End Times?
Did you know all the signs Jesus said would signify His second coming are occurring in our time?
The Rev. Billy Graham, Pope John Paul II and numerous Orthodox Jewish rabbis have all said they believe that the coming of the Messiah is very near. Why? Because so many Bible prophecies are being fulfilled.

When Jesus' disciples asked what would signal His return, He gave them several signs to watch for. He also taught that the time immediately before His coming would be known as the "beginning of sorrows" (Matt. 24:8), which in English means the "onset of labor pains."

Jesus was saying the signs of His coming would start out as mild pangs spaced widely apart like human labor and then gradually become closer together and more intense, like the birth process, until this seven-year period of suffering and judgment would culminate in the coming of the Messiah.

The Signs
Consider the signs that Jesus said would be the prelude to His return and notice how they've begun to occur in our time:

False Christs The past few decades have witnessed a huge upsurge in charismatic leaders claiming to be Christ or the Jewish Messiah, including the Moonies' Rev. Sun Moon, the Buddhist Dalai Lama, the Hindu Krishnamurti, and the Bahais' Baha Ullah, to name a few. Collectively, their followers number in the u millions. . Jesus replied to them, "See that none misleads you; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many." Matt. 24:4,5
War War in the original Greek of Matthew 24 is ethnos, meaning ethnic or racial war. A recent editorial in Time magazine reported there are presently 67 wars being fought around the planet and most of them are ethnic wars, including the recent slaughter in Rwanda and Bosnia. According to the National Defense Council Foundation, conflicts around the globe have doubled since 1989. "... you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars..." Matt. 24:6,7
Famine The LA Times reported recently that more than one billion people suffer from serious malnutrition, exacerbated in the past months by worldwide drought. More than 35 million people living mostly in the southern states of Africa suffer from acute hunger and are threatened with imminent death. "There will be famines..." Matt. 24:7.
Pestilence The rate of infectious diseases has increased 58% since 1980, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control. Diseases once considered conquered are now reappearing, sometimes in drug-resistant forms. AIDS has become a worldwide scourge, and viral diseases such as Ebola pose an international threat because of transcontinental flight. "There will be pestilences." Matt. 24:7.
Earthquakes The number of dangerous earthquakes measuring 6.0 or greater on the Richter scale has been steadily increasing since the 1950s when there were nine. In the 1960s, there were 13. In the 1970s, 51. In the 1980s, 86. In the 1990s more than100 such serious earthquakes have already been recorded, according to the LA Herald Examiner. "There will be...earthquakes in various places." Matt. 24:7.
The Seas and Waves Roaring The Associated Press reports that the most recently completed Atlantic hurricane season produced 11 hurricanes, 8 tropical storms, and $7.7 billion in damage. Serious flooding has also occurred recently in the U.S., Russia, Japan, Mexico, China, Europe, Korea, and the United Kingdom, according to Barron's. "There will be bewilderment at the roaring of the sea and waves." Luke 21:25.
Great Signs in the Heavens The 1994 comet Shoemaker-Levy 9, a string of 21 space rocks that slammed into Jupiter with the power of thousands of nuclear explosions, could be a heavenly sign. Jupiter is the mythological king of the planets and in Christian symbolism it is a representation of Christ. The 21 explosions are reminiscent of the 21 judgments that will befall Earth during the seven-year period that ushers in the coming of the Messiah, according to the Book of Revelation. The comet Hyakutake has recently lit up the night sky, and what promises to be the spectacular comet Hale-Bopp, first sighted in 1995, is scheduled to come nearest to our sun in the spring of 1997. "Great signs shall there be from heaven." Luke 21:11.
Violence Since 1960 violent crime has increased in the U.S. by 560%, according to FBI statistics, and the number of reported cases of child abuse in the U.S. has risen from 670,000 in 1976 to nearly 3 million in the 1990s. Other nations are experiencing similar dramatic increases in violent crime, reports the San Francisco Chronicle. "...as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Mt. 24:37. ("And God said unto Noah, '...the earth is filled with violence...'" Gen. 6:13.)
Gospel Preached to the Whole World Pope John Paul II has traveled to 70-plus nations during his pontificate, preaching the gospel to millions. The Rev. Billy Graham recently conducted a week-long crusade from Costa Rica translated into every language on the planet and broadcast via satellite around the globe. With Communism's collapse, Christian radio and TV are now reaching into almost every nook and cranny of planet Earth. "...and this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached to the whole world and then the end shall come." Mt. 24:14.
All of the signs that Jesus said would precede His return seem to be occurring in our time.

Other Prophecies Fulfilled
Other prophecies relating to this seven-year period of judgment, coming from many parts of the Bible, have also begun to be fulfilled:

Israel reborn as a nation in 1948 (Ezek. 4:3-6, Lev. 26:18)
Israel surrounded by hostile Arab countries (Psalm 83:4-8)
Jerusalem inhabited by the Jews (Luke 21:24)
Israel negotiates a peace treaty with her enemies (Daniel 9:27)
Doomsday weapons threaten earth (Joel 2:3)
Ecological devastation occurs (Rev. 11:18)
The Roman Empire revives as the European Union (Daniel 2:40-44)
Heresies become widespread (II Thess. 2:3)
Russia rises as a military power (Ezek. 38:1-12)
A hole in the ozone layer develops (Rev. 16:8.9)
TV communications are global (Revelation 11:9,10)
Satanic and cultic activity arises (I Tim. 4:1)
Sub-dermal microchips for identification purposes proposed by the U.S. military (Rev. 13:16,17)
Massive increases in wealth occur (Jas. 5:3)
GATT and World Trade Organization become possible forerunners of a world government (Rev. 13:7)
Asia possesses resources for a 200-million-man army (Rev. 9:14-16)
The Euphrates River can be dried up (Rev. 16:12-v 14) and a military highway linking Asia to the Middle East is being completed (Rev. 9:14)
Knowledge vastly increases (Dan. 12:4)
Russian and Ethiopian Jews return to Israel (Jer. 23:7,8; Zeph. 3:10)
The Hebrew language is recovered (Zeph. 3:9)
Jerusalem is rebuilt in nine specific directions (Jer. 31:38-40)
Levites and priests train for Temple service (Ezek. 43:14,15)
Israel's rainfall increases dramatically (Joel 2:23) and the country becomes fertile and blossoms (Isa. 27:6)
Men become more selfish, arrogant, abusive, ungrateful, fierce and treacherous (II Tim. 3:2,3)
Where We Fit In
Referring to these signs, Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." (Luke 21:24-28).

If we are approaching that seven-year period that precedes the second coming of Christ - and all the signs indicate we are - the Bible tells us those years of judgment upon the earth will be accompanied by untold human suffering.

But believers in Christ who have sincerely placed their trust in Him can be certain of the redemption to which Jesus referred, for He promised His followers that "God has not destined us for wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).

So where does that leave you? Are you one of God's children who's been called to believe in His Son but has rejected each invitation? Where are you going to spend the seven years of God's wrath? And the rest of eternity?

Jesus told us that "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, so that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John. 3:16). But He went on to say that "...he who does not believe is already condemned because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God" (John. 3:18).

Is it too late for you to find salvation?
Not yet. God designed an "escape hatch" for us by offering His only Son to die a miserable death on a cross so that our sins could be blotted out in our Creator's sight and we could be reconciled to Him.

All we have to do is accept His Son as the perfect sacrifice for our sins. By doing this our loving Father promised that, "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor heart imagined the wonderful things God has prepared for those who love Him" (1 Cor. 2:9).

Would you like to receive those "wonderful things" in the everlasting life Christ promised His followers? Do you want to know how to accept God's Son? It's simple. All you have to do is sincerely pray this prayer: "Lord Jesus, I know I'm a sinner and need Your forgiveness. I believe that you died for my sins and I want to turn away from my wrongdoing. Right now I'm inviting you to come into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You, making You my Lord and Savior. Amen."

What Next?
If you prayed this and meant it, you need to start talking to God through prayer, reading the Scriptures daily to get to know God better, and find a church where Christians like you worship Christ and where the good news of the Bible is being preached.

Remember, you are now Christ's representative to a needy world that appears to be embarking upon the period of unimaginable suffering that precedes Christ's second coming. You can help lead others to the Truth you've discovered and enable them to avoid the agony to come. Don't put this off. Today is the day of salvation. Tomorrow may be too late. God bless you on your journey.

If you would like to pursue a more in-depth study of Bible prophecy, books by Hal Lindsey, Grant Jeffrey, Jack Van Impe, Peter LaLonde, and John Walvoord among others are available at most Christian bookstores.

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Other Christian Information Sites on the WWW:
ICL Net: Christian Literature on the Net
Bible Gateway
Christian Coalition Home Page
Jewish and Christian Links
Lions Den
Jack Van Impe Home Page
Zola Levitt Presents

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Webmum, so many people raise the same points as you about 'why do things go wrong', 'why is there illness' etc etc, which is why I gave you that Christian answers website. Not because I'm trying to convert you or anything, but only because it covers so many issues and includes so many frequently asked questions. Just thought it may be of interest to you.

There are reasons why the world isn't perfect, even with God in charge, but that leads into a whole other subject... just as there is good in the world, there is also evil. I'm sure you would agree there is a lot of evidence of that. Anyway haven't got time to address it any further at the moment (Rhubarb may like to ), but I hope you find that website helpful if you happen to have a look.

libby65

sorry I didn't have time to look at that website, I will do, but ahve to run to dd who demands a bit of attention!!

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Whew.... very good post Bloss.

Even got me thinking about a few things myself. It all made very good sense to me.

Wow! Printing out this thread to read it at leisure at home. Am at a critical stage with ds and dd, wondering whether to pass on my Catholic heritage to them - or let their dad pass on his agnosticism.
Now back to the discussion...

Wow bloss, where did you get that information? The original texts of the bible are the holy grail and are not known to still be in existence. I know an awful lot of scholars who would LOVE to get their hands on the authenticated texts. Just where are they kept exactly? In which university or library? As far as I know, the nearest thing to the original still in existence are the dead sea scrolls. Which bible college is this? The thing about studying religion as an intellectual subject as opposed to a belief system is that academic biblical scholars have no vested interest in the sources. How verified are these texts? And if they DO exist still, why are they not avaliable for the academic community to study? Sorry, i think your friend, although probably very sincere, is reading from one of the many copies that were floating around the middle east in the middle ages. Good grief, at one point there were 6 foreskins of Jesus being touted as the original. As to the belief that they were writted 65 yeard AD, well the current academic thinking is 100-300 years before the bible was collated in it's current form, but again, you show me an authenticated 65AD text and I'd be prepared to change my views.

As to the "childish" thinking which seems to have upset so many people, sorry. When you are young you accept everything your parent tells you. As you gtrow and mature you learn to think for yourself and form your own opinions. The father/child analogy is all through the bible. Don't see why it upsets you so. I could just as easily be offended by posters telling me I'm "hard" and "arrogant" because I refuse to believe in the unbelievable. Is it not just as arrogant of you to impose your belief system on me, then attack me when I point out the inconstiencies?

As to the viral argument, I just put in as an example of another viewpoint. I'm not sure I believe in it either, I haven't thought enough about it yet.

My point always has been that as Christians, or indeed as anyone religious, you expect me to respect your views. Indeed, is it not part of your brief as christians to convert the Heathens like me. So I relly enjoy the arguments. I love watching you wriggle yourselves into intellectual corners and getting upset when the inconstiencies are pointed out. I LOVE the sceptics bible. Great stuff. But I you want me to respect your views, you should also respect mine. If not, you are bieng just as arrogant as you accuse me of being. Peace.

Susan Blackmore "The Meme Machine"

its still open to interpretation - that was your interpretation. It differed from others interpretation - you were trying to correct what other people had said, maybe they read it differently.

as for homosexuality - am not bothered if the apostles wrote it as a "forward" at the beginning in neon pen underlined in red " YOU CANNOT BE GAY - SO WE ALL UNDERSTAND MEN DONT SLEEP WITH MEN OR WOMEN WITH WOMEN SO E REALLY KNOW WHAT WE ARE ON ABOUT.. NO SEX WITH ANYONE WHO IS THE SAME SEX" it brings me back to the point of the bible being a good moralistic guide but to have it as the definate word of god i dont believe - if someone loves someone else - is a good person , but happens to be gay as opposed to straight - they re goin to hell..because ..why? they didnt procreate? - well shoot me now - i used to take contraception - same thing - am not procreating - so line me up with the gays and shoot me.

and its useful to me to seperate faith and religeon - which i think is diferent to spiritualism and the bible - and i have explained why before.
you seperate the bible and what is practised in the name of the bible - like in church - in religeon you mean? - like love honour obey your husband, the contraception thing again and others. if the bible nt and ot was so easy to read there couldnt be wars and samll minded relgeons built off the back of it.

most of all i think its important for us to remember that we all have different views - no one view is correct - above is how i chose to live my life -following the bibles broad "life codes" bringing my children up to be as non judgemental as i can - becasue its not our place.

it all has to be taken into context. writings 2000 years ago will not apply to us exactly today - for instance i could interpret the non gay line like this

the greeks were always having their " boys" for a little child fucking in another room, maybe jesus and / or the apostles thought this was wrong - and put in the bit about - not lying with another man - in the hope that this would stop.

am not suggesting this is true - am just interpreting as we all do.

Slug I can listen to and respect your views til the cows come home, but when you make comments like the one above, it's no wonder you get accused of being arrogant. I thought it was totally unncessary, as was Custardo's crass description of what the Greeks did to boys. I think when it gets to this level we should just give up on discussions like these.

For anyone interested in the viral arguement read some of Richard Dawkins stuff on memes- If I remember correctly he was the first to propose the idea. It's quite interesting stuff.

Bloss,

I'm sorry, I found your definition of spirituality quite offensive and totally misleading.

Religion and spirituality are quite separate entities in that you are right. Religion is the outer trappings, the rituals, the words... spirituality is the inner relationship, the heart, the living of what you believe.

I know some christians who are deeply religious in that they speak the words to all who will here, go to bible study, regularly attend church, but spiritually they are empty. I know some deeply spiritual christians too who I hold in complete awe.

Spirituality transcends religion. Buddhist, jew, christian, pagan... Spending true time with your God(s) shows in the way you live and breathe. One of the most spiritual people I know is a catholic - my previous prejudices would have thought that the rigid ritual system of the catholic religion was designed to stifle spirituality - I was very very wrong. For her the ritual and splendour frees her to explore her own spirituality.

Same with morality. Admitedly morality tends to walk hand in hand with spirituality and religion but they are not the same thing. You can be an ethical person and not have any religion - to suggest otherwise is a gross insult.

Spirituality is heart, mind and soul. I am not a christian but I do not neglect my soul.

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" (or poisoner in some versions - the translations can be widly different depending on the translators' particular bias) is Exodus Chapter 22 verse 18.

I would be very interested in you looking up the original word for homosexuality - there are many ways the bible uses words to condemn certain sexual activity (male temple prostitutes for one) but didn't recognise homosexuality as an orientation.

Genesis 19 is about rape. Men loiter outside the house and demand that the male visitors be sent out so they could rape them. In that culture the guest was king - it would have been a heinous crime. For the owners of the house it was better that they sent out their own daughters to be raped instead of their guests. I think the whole passage is pretty sick, but it's clear that RAPE IS WRONG no matter whether it's homosexual or heterosexual rape.

"He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death." Exodus, Chapter 21 verse 15.

"He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death." Exodus, Chapter 21 verse 17.

Now now Libby65. You can't accuse me of arrogant thinking (though I'm prepared to accept I wasn't being particularly polite) and also announce that fornication is a sin. In doing that you have insulted all the non married mums on mumsnet.

Actually I really admire those of you with strong faith. The way you manage to hold onto these beliefs in the face of strong evidence to the contrary is really amazing. It must be a really comforting feeling to have an inner sense of truth. I don't claim that Jesus did not have a good message. My query is with the existence of a god. If you cannot believe in the exisence of a god, then the argument that god sacrificed his only son becomes invalid. And anyway I thought we were ALL gods children.

Actually come to think of it, if I remember my Jung, the archetype of the sacrificed god is quite common to many belief systems. You'll have to check with Snugs on that, it's far more her area than mine.

I think Richard Dawkins got his theory of memes from Susam Blackmore. Though if you read his description the symptoms of a mind that has been infected with a religion virus, it's really funny.

Try reading:
Robert Hinde "Why Gods Persist"
Pascal Boyer "Religion Explained"

Think Dawkins invented the word. In the selfish gene he says " we need a name for the new replicator...... "Mimeme" comes from a suitable Greek root, but I want a monosyllable that sounds a bit like "gene". I hope my classicist friends will forgive me if I abbreviate mimeme to meme".

he then goes on in a later edition of the selfish gene to say that meme turned out to be a good meme as it had made its way into the OED.

Richard Dawkins does rather enjoy writing about religion!

Actually I think we're all religious. Atheism is a belief system just as much as Catholicism is. I too was quite narked at being labelled 'childish' because of my beliefs, but I wouldn't have gone about it as Bloss has done. Bloss, your arguments are very well thought out and researched, but I do think that they are rather off-putting! No-one but no-one has offered an explanation of the Jesus quote in Matthew 18:11-12, I quote ".."This teaching does not apply to everyone, but only those to whom God has given it. For there are different reasons why men cannot marry: some, because they were born that way; others, because men made them that way; and others do not marry for the sake of the Kingdom of heaven. Let him who can accept this teaching do so."' Why has no-one commented on this? Are you all too afraid of what it implies? Are you using Christianity as a cover for homophobia? I don't like the thought of two men or women sleeping together, I think it goes against nature, but no-one can question love and commitment, so how dare we say that our way is better than theirs! Are you not forgetting Jesus' own words? Love thy neighbour, do not judge - these are all running themes in the Bible. When you are condemning gays let me ask you - have you ever done dirty sex? Oral sex? Slept with anyone who is not your husband? Used sex toys? If you have, do you honestly think this puts you in a better league than gays?

I agree with Custardo, you all have your own interpretations of the Bible, they are no better than the next persons. Bloss, you have interpretated the Revelations quote in a different way to me, does that make me wrong and you right? We will never know who is right and wrong until the last day, so until that day comes I think we should be going around being really nice to each other, not criticising them or judging them, as on the last day you could have got it all horribly wrong, and they could be right!

Can I ask how sacrifice is supposed to work? All the language about it seems to be something to do with debt and repayment. I genuinely do not understand what the sacrifice of Christ means. Who is the sacrifice to? Or by? What difference is it supposed to make? Is it to appease someone? Who? Somebody other than God? If God, why is he sacrificing his son to himself? What is this death supposed to achieve?

I hope this doesn't sound too simplistic (but whole books have been written on this) but I believe that God made the world perfect (remember Adam and Eve) but as human beings we want to live our own way and all of us fall short of Gods standards (thats what sin is) so... Sin deserves punishmentor it ruins the relationship we could have with God (we all believe that - imagine how we feel when someone behaves really badly - we want justice) and God is the same - His character is like a coin with two sides: justice and love. His justice condemns us , for sin must be punished. His love makes him long for us to become his friends again. On the cross, his justice and love were perfectly satisfied. Sin had to be punished, so God in his love sent his son, Jesus, to die in our place.

It's a bit like one of us being in the dock for something and then the judge saying its OK I will pay their fine and they can come home and live with me. Pretty cool - eh?

Sorry this is so long!!

I don't really understand how it works, but can I just make one point? God didn't sacrifice his son in the same sense that one of us might give up our child to be killed. He actually sacrificed himself - he took a small part of himself and made it into a human being and that was who was crucified. The nearest we can get to understanding the relationship between Jesus and God is to say Jesus is God's son but it's not an exact analogy.

Slug - I'm afraid I don't know any Jung so can't comment on his work, but sacrifice certainly doesn't play any part in my personal 'belief system' or any I have looked into.

Bloss "There are a handful of references to witches and dealings with the occult in the OT, and they are roundly condemned. But that makes perfect sense doesn't it?" .... Please explain why it make perfect sense. Or is it a case of condemn anything you dont understand?

Slug - my apologies, I misread your post (shouldn't log on when I have a pounding headache I suppose - painkillers have now kicked in and I can see straight).

Yes, the sacrificial 'Sun King' is a repeated image in many ancient faiths. It is often portrayed as one half of the fight between light and dark (good and evil). In many faiths however, it makes up a much smaller part of the overall 'belief' - Christianity places much more emphasis on its singular importance than the pagan religions do.

Bloss - I couldn't agree with you more about questioning the orgins of the universe and wondering if it was created. But, for me, then going on to believe in god because I don't understand it would be like believing that the world was flat because that is how it appears to me and because I don't have the knowledge/ability myself to discover otherwise. These are the kind of arguments you have with yourself when you are about 18. For me, man being a sophisticated animal makes more sense despite it being less palatable. Surely our notions of 'creation' are limited by our experience. We are born therefore everything must start somewhere? I'm not sure it gets us any further . I can't explain the beginning of the universe but I believe that one day it will be explained. Presumably, believers in god make the jump that because they can't explain how something came to be it must have been created.

I find references to what Jesus was purported to have said and done a little distracting. I don't doubt the bloke existed , was pretty charismatic and did some good stuff but the argument about a belief in god is separate. People believed in god before they could write, I presume.

Tinker, I think man is much more than just a sophisticated animal. The gap between humans and other animals is just too immense. People argue that chimpanzees use tools - yes, they use sticks to poke insects out of logs. They haven't even invented the wheel, needle or axe yet - never mind cars and computers. And what about art, language, literature, theatre, humour, clothes, music etc.?

Nah we're common or garden animals I'm afraid. We've evolved a complex language and communication system, but that's the basis by which we differ. Language allows culture to develop. But strip all that and we're animals. I think this is where we stumble into the "Paley's watch" arguement.

Hi KS

I'm remembering this from 14 years ago so I could have the details wrong but it goes something like this:

Paley was if I remember correctly a theologian form the early 19th century (before Darwin) He used the compexity of life, and the seemingly perfect "design" of living organisms as an arguement for a creator. He compared living organisms to a fine watch- the watch is so beautiful and so fitting for its function that it must have had a creator.

Of course natural selection removes the "need" for a creator as everything can evolve in simple small steps.

The title of Richard Dawkins book "The Blind Watchmaker" is a reference to Paley's watch.

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