just something to share

[threeangels]

I know war has been a lot more on many minds lately. I found this sight and wanted to share it with anyone who is interested.

I also want to say that any mumsnetters who have any family members going to war along with everyone else in the world will be in my thoughts and prayers.

Are We Nearing the End Times?
Did you know all the signs Jesus said would signify His second coming are occurring in our time?
The Rev. Billy Graham, Pope John Paul II and numerous Orthodox Jewish rabbis have all said they believe that the coming of the Messiah is very near. Why? Because so many Bible prophecies are being fulfilled.

When Jesus' disciples asked what would signal His return, He gave them several signs to watch for. He also taught that the time immediately before His coming would be known as the "beginning of sorrows" (Matt. 24:8), which in English means the "onset of labor pains."

Jesus was saying the signs of His coming would start out as mild pangs spaced widely apart like human labor and then gradually become closer together and more intense, like the birth process, until this seven-year period of suffering and judgment would culminate in the coming of the Messiah.

The Signs
Consider the signs that Jesus said would be the prelude to His return and notice how they've begun to occur in our time:

False Christs The past few decades have witnessed a huge upsurge in charismatic leaders claiming to be Christ or the Jewish Messiah, including the Moonies' Rev. Sun Moon, the Buddhist Dalai Lama, the Hindu Krishnamurti, and the Bahais' Baha Ullah, to name a few. Collectively, their followers number in the u millions. . Jesus replied to them, "See that none misleads you; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many." Matt. 24:4,5
War War in the original Greek of Matthew 24 is ethnos, meaning ethnic or racial war. A recent editorial in Time magazine reported there are presently 67 wars being fought around the planet and most of them are ethnic wars, including the recent slaughter in Rwanda and Bosnia. According to the National Defense Council Foundation, conflicts around the globe have doubled since 1989. "... you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars..." Matt. 24:6,7
Famine The LA Times reported recently that more than one billion people suffer from serious malnutrition, exacerbated in the past months by worldwide drought. More than 35 million people living mostly in the southern states of Africa suffer from acute hunger and are threatened with imminent death. "There will be famines..." Matt. 24:7.
Pestilence The rate of infectious diseases has increased 58% since 1980, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control. Diseases once considered conquered are now reappearing, sometimes in drug-resistant forms. AIDS has become a worldwide scourge, and viral diseases such as Ebola pose an international threat because of transcontinental flight. "There will be pestilences." Matt. 24:7.
Earthquakes The number of dangerous earthquakes measuring 6.0 or greater on the Richter scale has been steadily increasing since the 1950s when there were nine. In the 1960s, there were 13. In the 1970s, 51. In the 1980s, 86. In the 1990s more than100 such serious earthquakes have already been recorded, according to the LA Herald Examiner. "There will be...earthquakes in various places." Matt. 24:7.
The Seas and Waves Roaring The Associated Press reports that the most recently completed Atlantic hurricane season produced 11 hurricanes, 8 tropical storms, and $7.7 billion in damage. Serious flooding has also occurred recently in the U.S., Russia, Japan, Mexico, China, Europe, Korea, and the United Kingdom, according to Barron's. "There will be bewilderment at the roaring of the sea and waves." Luke 21:25.
Great Signs in the Heavens The 1994 comet Shoemaker-Levy 9, a string of 21 space rocks that slammed into Jupiter with the power of thousands of nuclear explosions, could be a heavenly sign. Jupiter is the mythological king of the planets and in Christian symbolism it is a representation of Christ. The 21 explosions are reminiscent of the 21 judgments that will befall Earth during the seven-year period that ushers in the coming of the Messiah, according to the Book of Revelation. The comet Hyakutake has recently lit up the night sky, and what promises to be the spectacular comet Hale-Bopp, first sighted in 1995, is scheduled to come nearest to our sun in the spring of 1997. "Great signs shall there be from heaven." Luke 21:11.
Violence Since 1960 violent crime has increased in the U.S. by 560%, according to FBI statistics, and the number of reported cases of child abuse in the U.S. has risen from 670,000 in 1976 to nearly 3 million in the 1990s. Other nations are experiencing similar dramatic increases in violent crime, reports the San Francisco Chronicle. "...as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Mt. 24:37. ("And God said unto Noah, '...the earth is filled with violence...'" Gen. 6:13.)
Gospel Preached to the Whole World Pope John Paul II has traveled to 70-plus nations during his pontificate, preaching the gospel to millions. The Rev. Billy Graham recently conducted a week-long crusade from Costa Rica translated into every language on the planet and broadcast via satellite around the globe. With Communism's collapse, Christian radio and TV are now reaching into almost every nook and cranny of planet Earth. "...and this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached to the whole world and then the end shall come." Mt. 24:14.
All of the signs that Jesus said would precede His return seem to be occurring in our time.

Other Prophecies Fulfilled
Other prophecies relating to this seven-year period of judgment, coming from many parts of the Bible, have also begun to be fulfilled:

Israel reborn as a nation in 1948 (Ezek. 4:3-6, Lev. 26:18)
Israel surrounded by hostile Arab countries (Psalm 83:4-8)
Jerusalem inhabited by the Jews (Luke 21:24)
Israel negotiates a peace treaty with her enemies (Daniel 9:27)
Doomsday weapons threaten earth (Joel 2:3)
Ecological devastation occurs (Rev. 11:18)
The Roman Empire revives as the European Union (Daniel 2:40-44)
Heresies become widespread (II Thess. 2:3)
Russia rises as a military power (Ezek. 38:1-12)
A hole in the ozone layer develops (Rev. 16:8.9)
TV communications are global (Revelation 11:9,10)
Satanic and cultic activity arises (I Tim. 4:1)
Sub-dermal microchips for identification purposes proposed by the U.S. military (Rev. 13:16,17)
Massive increases in wealth occur (Jas. 5:3)
GATT and World Trade Organization become possible forerunners of a world government (Rev. 13:7)
Asia possesses resources for a 200-million-man army (Rev. 9:14-16)
The Euphrates River can be dried up (Rev. 16:12-v 14) and a military highway linking Asia to the Middle East is being completed (Rev. 9:14)
Knowledge vastly increases (Dan. 12:4)
Russian and Ethiopian Jews return to Israel (Jer. 23:7,8; Zeph. 3:10)
The Hebrew language is recovered (Zeph. 3:9)
Jerusalem is rebuilt in nine specific directions (Jer. 31:38-40)
Levites and priests train for Temple service (Ezek. 43:14,15)
Israel's rainfall increases dramatically (Joel 2:23) and the country becomes fertile and blossoms (Isa. 27:6)
Men become more selfish, arrogant, abusive, ungrateful, fierce and treacherous (II Tim. 3:2,3)
Where We Fit In
Referring to these signs, Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." (Luke 21:24-28).

If we are approaching that seven-year period that precedes the second coming of Christ - and all the signs indicate we are - the Bible tells us those years of judgment upon the earth will be accompanied by untold human suffering.

But believers in Christ who have sincerely placed their trust in Him can be certain of the redemption to which Jesus referred, for He promised His followers that "God has not destined us for wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).

So where does that leave you? Are you one of God's children who's been called to believe in His Son but has rejected each invitation? Where are you going to spend the seven years of God's wrath? And the rest of eternity?

Jesus told us that "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, so that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John. 3:16). But He went on to say that "...he who does not believe is already condemned because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God" (John. 3:18).

Is it too late for you to find salvation?
Not yet. God designed an "escape hatch" for us by offering His only Son to die a miserable death on a cross so that our sins could be blotted out in our Creator's sight and we could be reconciled to Him.

All we have to do is accept His Son as the perfect sacrifice for our sins. By doing this our loving Father promised that, "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor heart imagined the wonderful things God has prepared for those who love Him" (1 Cor. 2:9).

Would you like to receive those "wonderful things" in the everlasting life Christ promised His followers? Do you want to know how to accept God's Son? It's simple. All you have to do is sincerely pray this prayer: "Lord Jesus, I know I'm a sinner and need Your forgiveness. I believe that you died for my sins and I want to turn away from my wrongdoing. Right now I'm inviting you to come into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You, making You my Lord and Savior. Amen."

What Next?
If you prayed this and meant it, you need to start talking to God through prayer, reading the Scriptures daily to get to know God better, and find a church where Christians like you worship Christ and where the good news of the Bible is being preached.

Remember, you are now Christ's representative to a needy world that appears to be embarking upon the period of unimaginable suffering that precedes Christ's second coming. You can help lead others to the Truth you've discovered and enable them to avoid the agony to come. Don't put this off. Today is the day of salvation. Tomorrow may be too late. God bless you on your journey.

If you would like to pursue a more in-depth study of Bible prophecy, books by Hal Lindsey, Grant Jeffrey, Jack Van Impe, Peter LaLonde, and John Walvoord among others are available at most Christian bookstores.

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ICL Net: Christian Literature on the Net
Bible Gateway
Christian Coalition Home Page
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Lions Den
Jack Van Impe Home Page
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With regards to the animal sacrifices. It says in the new testament that Jesus died as a sacrifice for us so we don't have to make animal sacrifices as they did in the old testament.

Also with the food, again there is a reference in the new testament about nothing God has made (amimals) is unclean) which is why Christians eat pork etc.

I'm afraid I'm not as organised/knowledgeable as some of the other posters so I can't quite exact verses.

Phillipat, loving God is meant to be like loving a parent. To love God is to know him and his wishes. It is also wanting to do good to others as you recognise them as your brothers and sisters. It is wanting to do good things to please God, as you would a parent. It is visiting him and talking to him often, as you would a parent. God spurs people on because he is full of love himself. One of the commandments is 'Love Thy Neighbour' if everyone followed this commandment, just think how much good there would be in the world. For all those so-called Christians like George Bush, well they have gone against this commandment so they shouldn't really be calling themselves Christians at all. Also, if you believe in God, and his love, you will know of his 'gifts', those of strength, courage and faith. That is why there are so many martyrs and holy people who have endured suffering and imprisonment. Joan of Arc who prayed whilst she was burnt, Terry Waite who endured imprisonment, and so on, they are testament to the strength and courage God gives you when you decide to follow him. My friend the charity founder, has faced many dangers during her work in China, and many adversities, most people would have given up, but because of her strong beliefs, she carried on and somehow found the strength and the will to make her charity a success. She also has a gift of public speaking. I don't know whereabouts this is in the Bible, but Jesus once told his disciples to go and preach his word, and that he if they were not great speakers, not to fear for he would put the words into their mouths.

I don't know if this gives you a clearer picture or not. But basically, if you truly have love for God, you want to do his word, which means helping your neighbour and putting them first.

Custdy - you really do fancy the Pope don't you? Do you dream of him at night? Do you? Do you?

Ah JulieF, but what about the verses in the old testament about putting to death a child who strikes their parent or who curses at their parent? I don't think there'd be many children left in the world if we followed that piece of scripture...

Unfortunately Rhubarb, the God of the Bible does not come across as a loving parent consistently. Oh I know there are passages that talk about Him being the loving Father, but in most places he comes across as intolerant, angry and vengeful.

I know what you mean GeorginaA, and that's what I thought too, until I discovered the background of the writers. Many of them are not talking literally, it is confusing as it tends to switch from parable like tales, to reality, but that's how it was back then. I think the prophets injected a bit of their own fantasies to the Bible to make it more exciting!! But if you read Moses, where God tells him he is going to strike down a certain town (I forget the name) because they have continually sinned against him, Moses argues with him, he asks if God will save the town if 1000 good people are found there, then he whittles it down to 100, then 50, then 10. God says he will save the town if just 10 good people are found there. That made me think that God really was for the underdog, the minorities. You may think the world is a wicked place and God does not see the good you do, but he does and it does make a difference to him.
I think this is one of the reasons God sent his son down. In the OT God was much more involved than he is now, because Jesus was the last word so to speak, before the last days. It is Jesus who really sums up the kind of person God is, and let's face it, he should know! I'm not saying the OT is not important, but you have to read it knowing the background of the prophets, the time they were writing at, and the culture that influenced their writing. So it does get confusing and complicated. The NT however, can be read today and still understood as it is still relevant. So I tend to leave the OT to the scholars, and concentrate on the NT as that is where I get my inspiration from. But if you ever do want to know the whole story and meaning of the OT, ask the Jehovah's Witnesses, they know everything apparently!

GeorginaA - I don't insist that old testament laws are for today, because if I'm Christian, then I no longer have to live by the law. You would have to ask a Jew whether or not they still practice all or many of the law's requirements. As you say (but you left off the end), Christ did not come to destroy the law, but he came to fulfill it. Jesus was against religious oppression and bondage, and as Rhubarb indicated, he came so that people would no longer have to be bound by old testament laws. Although - the ten commandments still stand, and Jesus refers to these in the NT, but all the other laws such as ritual sacrifice, avoiding certain foods, being unclean at various times of the month, etc etc etc, no longer have to be followed. Jesus' death is considered as the 'final sacrifice' IYKWIM, so as Christians we no longer have to live by these stringent laws.

That's fine Libby - but the old testament laws are what fundamentalist christians constantly refer to to justify their extreme intolerance of homosexuality. Unfortunately, while I appreciate not all christians are like that, some groups do seem to want to pick and choose as to what suits them.

I've been thinking about this thread over the past couple of days, and I think Rhubarb's last post ties in with my thoughts. I'm a Christian but I have to admit I find a lot of passages in the OT very hard to accept. I can't help thinking that the people who wrote it got things wrong and wrongly attributed things to God. I don't know - I have a lot of problems with some of it.

The proof that God loves us is that he was prepared to become totally vunerable and live on earth as a human being. He was betrayed, misunderstood, humiliated and tortured.

The NT is all about love. Jesus (God) was definitely loving. The other NT writers (see Paul's defn of love in 1 Corinithians 13) were inspired by God to teach Christians that loving each other was extremely important. I don't feel that God would care so much about us loving each other if he didn't love us.

I agree with you GeorginaA about the fundamentalists using the OT and in my opinion they completely miss the point of the NT.

An eye for an eye is the most obvious example, Jesus preached that Christians should forgive so that is the doctrine I follow.

It's gone a bit quiet on this thread so I thought I'd fire one final salvo before disappearing below the parapet. I'm going to the book launch so all you Christians, arm yourselves with your bibles and prepare to bash me with them

Libby65 and rhubarb asked why , despite studying religons, I'm so anti religon. It comes with an interest in how societies and cultures work. The more cultures you look at, the more it becomes evident that the major controlling force in those societies is a common belief system. All well and good, but those belief systems are codified as religion and marketed as the ultimate truth. The next obvious step is to look at who benefits by the codified system. Inevitably it is men. Which begs the question if God is all loving, why does HE allow a system based on his teachings to benefit one section of society at the expense of another? If the cardinal properties of god are (amongst others) omnipotence, why can he not make an equal society? Or at the very least make an unambigous statement in these days of mass communication. There's a great headline in 'The Onion' post 9/11 "God Angrily Repeats Don't Kill Law"

I object to the unquestioning respect that religous views are given. If I said that I believed in something like slavery (or Gina Ford ) You would expect me to be able to argue my position. Yet if you say 'Women may have no control over their reproductive lives' then I'm supposed to respect that?

A true story - a few years ago a young Antipodean, newly off the boat, goes on a night out with some friends and aquaintences. In the course of the eventing, many drinks are had and at the end she is date raped by one of the group. To her horror, she finds out 6 weeks later that she is pregnant. Unsure of her rights in the UK she goes to her doctor, explains the situation and tentativly raises the question of a termination. The doctor then proceeds to lecture her on her behaviour, implies that her sluttish behaviour was her own fault and states categorically that she cannot have a termination as he is her doctor, it is up to him to decide what happens to her and abortion is against his religion. Fortunately she had friends who were more clued up than her on the way things work.

Finally to the question of the difference between spirituality and religion. There is something in the human brain registers pleasure at feelings of 'oneness' with others or a feeling of being connected to a greater whole. You only have to see my dh blissed out to the sound of his favourite music to see that a belief in a sky god does not preclude haviing those feelings. Alternativly you could just drop some MDMA. Has the same effect.

Slug, God does not have a system where one section benefits whilst another suffers. God message is for us all, it is not selective. What man has made of religion is not what God wants, Jesus strove very hard here on earth to break down prejudices and tell the Jews that they weren't the only ones who had a promised future. Jesus told his disciples to spread the word amongst all his people. And that message is very simple, it is an ideal for how we should live our lives. We don't have to follow it, we are given a choice. But if we did live our lives the way Jesus indicated in the Sermon on the Mount, it would solve many of the world's problems.

As for euphoria, yes you can get that in many ways, but Slug, does your dh, after listening to his favourite music, want to go out and help the people of the world? A love of God is different in that way, it is not selfish or self-indulgent. A person who truly loves God also loves their neighbour, and their enemies. Jesus emphasised this in John (13:34) "And now I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you so you must love one another. If you have love for one another, then everyone will know that you are my disciples."

A testament to how much God loves us can be found in Isaiah (I forget where) when God says something along the lines of "Does a mother forget her baby at her breast? Does she forget about one to whom she gave birth? Yet even if she does forget, I will never forget you." Jesus also repeated these words in the NT.

Slug, the story you gave is troubling, but then wasn't the GP guilty of judging? You are comparing human nature to religion. As I said before, religion sets out a blueprint, we can either follow it or not. It is really hard to be a Christian at all times, I judge harshly, I shout at dd, I can make sarcastic comments, I have been rude to people, etc, etc. But I would hope that anyone who has been one the receiving end of any of these, would not judge religion based on my behaviour at any one time.

You choose not to believe in God, which is fine. I'm not saying we are any better than you, you might well be a better person than I. But just as you struggle to understand how people can believe in a being they can neither see, nor hear, nor touch, and for which evidence is scarce. I struggle to believe that the whole of the universe, evolution, the food chain, etc came about by a 'big bang' comprising of chemicals that apparently came out of nowhere. As mathematicians would say, nothing can come from nothing. So if we are lead to believe there was nothing, it defies belief that something was made from that.

So on this subject we will just have to agree to differ. But I've certainly learnt quite a bit on this thread and it's been great debating material! I'm now off to pray for all your atheist souls!

Oi, who you calling atheist ... just because I don't follow the Christian God ...

Good post Rhubarb.

Slug, I still can't agree with your views but that's fine. Your comments DO seem very Catholic-based, such as women not having any control over their reproductive lives (I assume you're talking about birth control). Well I'm not Catholic and have NEVER been taught that as a Christian, I'm not allowed to use birth control. I use birth control and I'm sure many women at my church use it too. I can honestly say that in all my years of going to church, I have never heard anything against using birth control... as far as I am concerned, we are free to make choices as long as they are not going to hurt anyone else and as long as we aren't going against our belief in God. For instance, fornication is a sin, but I don't believe that using birth control in a marriage situation is a problem. Abortion, I guess, is another thing, because it is viewed by so many as killing a human life. I agree it was a hard thing for the woman involved, and it wasn't her fault that she was raped, but there is also the adoption option - I'm not judging her but it may have been a way to prevent her from going through such a traumatic thing as an abortion, and save the child's life at the same time. But I know what an awful position she was in and how hard it would be to consider other options at a time like that.

As far as religion being mainly for the benefit of the man, well Jesus certainly wasn't like that. I wish people would go by HIS example, and not the example of all the misogynistic, chauvenistic, and judgmental men of the world. What did Jesus say to the woman who was caught in adultery? The crowd was about to stone her, but Jesus stopped them by saying "He who is without sin, cast the first stone." Of course there is no one without sin, so they dropped their stones and walked away. Then he asked the woman "Where are your accusers?", and she said "there is no one here to condemn me." And he said "NEITHER do I condemn you, so go and do not sin again." He stopped the crowd from harming her because he knew they were no better than she was. Everyone is equal in his eyes - I'm sure if you asked him who he died for on the cross, he wouldn't say "I died for all the men" - he would say that he died for the entire human race.

Men are told in the New Testament to love their wives, and to treat them with the same respect that they treat their own bodies. That says a lot to me about the Christian faith. It's a shame (understatement) that the same treatment can't be bestowed upon women in Muslim societies.

(I don't want to drag this thread forever but,

Rhuburb

your post makes me wonder: You say cna't believe the world etc has come out of nowhere, so you say God has created everything. This is not an answer: who, or what was before God?? And if God can be eternal and uncreated, why can't the universe be?

Because scientists don't believe in eternal and uncreated, only we do it seems! My point was that I simply cannot believe that there is no intelligence behind all of this - the harmonious way nature works, the beauty of it all, childbirth, how a caterpillar transforms into a butterfly, not even science can explain how some things work or why. I just can't believe it all came about by accident. Everything seems to fit together like jigsaw puzzle; the seasons, evolution; the food chain; reproduction. It's all so beautiful, beyond anything that man is capable of. Let's face it, if we don't even understand how a caterpillar transforms into a butterfly, we are not going to understand how the universe works are we? To me it signifies a higher intelligence, a genius, a beautiful mind. To say it all came about because of a 'big bang' is like saying that Einstein's mathematics were an accident, and not the result of his incredible mind at all. Or is it that mankind has a problem accepting that anyone or anything can be more intelligent and sophisticated than them?

Why will we not know how the universe works one day? Man landed on the moon only 60 years after the first flight in an aeroplane. If the estimated life of earth was scaled to a day, isn't man's time on earth something like only 3 seconds? I think that some people may have a problem accepting that they are nothing more than an evolutionary blip, utterly inconsequential and that thought is quite frightening.

I'm soo pleased you kept this thread going. What's the fun if there's no one to argue with. I'm sorry if my remarks are Catholic biased, it's the only version of Christianity I have any real knowledge of. I could have just as easily said "I'm not allowed to turn a switch on on a Saturday" or "Women are worth half a man in law" to have made an equally valid point.

My beef with the rabid anti abortionists is that they seem to value the rights of an unborn child over that of the woman carrying it. Possibly because the foetus is potentially male? Now before I get pounded into the ground, I want to differntialte between those who wouldn't have an abortion because of personal beliefs, and those who picket clinics and kill doctors.

I've recently come across a theory that postulates that human minds are susceptable to 'viral' thinking. An example of this is children's 'crazes'. We all remember, or have had experience of a craze that has swept the playground, lasts for a few weeks and disappears. In my school it was marbles. Every autumn, for some reason, the children would bring marbles to school and the whole school would get caught up in playing, for about 2 weeks, then it would die down again. The point is that these behaviours follow the same pattern as viral diseases. If you follow the analogy further, some virus leave the sufferer susceptable to other diseases later in life. The measles virus for example can leave you susceptable to shingles in adulthood. The theory that has been postulated is that religious thinking is viral in nature. Your mind has been exposed to the type of thinking that allows the belief in the unbelievable at an early age (Fairies, ghosts etc) Later in life, you may be exposed to a religous thinking virus, and as your mind now has the necessary connections to accept it, you become infected. This also explains why certain types of thinking are common to population groups, that just happens to be the type of virus that is present in that population.

There, it's not your fault you believe in god, you've just been exposed to a particularly virulent thought virus. I've just got good antibodies

Your last line was very patronising slug.... hope that wasn't your intention now was it???!!!

Basically I think it came across as though we 'religious types' have very small brains and are not able to think for ourselves. That is absolutely not true.

'Tis not easy being a Christian. People put sh*t on you for believing in God and Christianity gets badmouthed all the time. It is ridiculed, belittled and shown very little respect in this world (except perhaps for the United States). It never used to be this way, Christianity only a few short years ago was given great respect and people were much more decent to each other than they are nowadays - it was even the 'norm' to go to church on Sundays. Perhaps the world in the last few years has been affected by viral thinking of the 'anti-religious' kind, and maybe this has affected you, slug??

If I was to be affected by 'viral thinking', I think I would be led by the seemingly non-Christian majority of the world, instead of trying to stand up for what I believe in, which probably puts me in the minority.

As I said before, I have had some pretty amazing experiences and if Christianity was nothing more to me than a few rules, regulations & proverbs, then I would have given up on it long ago. It's proven itself to me many times and I'm happy sticking with it.

It's chickenpox that gives susceptibility to shingles, slug

Libby - you think Christianity gets bad mouthed a lot... you should look at the pounding Paganism gets - particularly in respect of civil liberties

Um that's civil liberties against pagans not pagans being accused of attacking civil liberties, but then you knew that right?

Rhubarb,
I don't agree with you, tehre's a mathematical concept called infinite, so you see scientists believe in eternity, only of a different kind. I don't think science postulates that teh universe is finite, quite the opposite.
By putting a starting point and an end to it, it's christianity that makes the world finite. with the only eternal element being God.

I think what I'm trying to say is that you CANNOT explain or prove the existence of God. There's not much point in arguing, no logical argument has ever been able to prove it in a satisfactory way(and all the classical philosophers spent a great deal of time attempting it).
I guess it's just down to faith (or lack of it)

Ah, but you cannot prove there isn't a God either!
Libby65, you posted my very thoughts! I am married to a lapsed catholic whose thoughts about religion change from day to day. My friends are all either lapsed catholics themselves with a chip on their shoulders, or are confirmed atheists. In fact, none of my close friends share my religion. It would be so easy for me to let go of my beliefs, to agree with them all, to have taken the morning after pill with my first pregnancy, to have had an abortion when I wanted one, to have slept around like they did, to live my life as they have done. It is incredibly difficult to maintain any faith at all. To go to church on Sundays instead of going for a lovely walk, or a pub lunch. A lot of my friends are astonished when I tell them I am a catholic, and then you find yourself under a barrage of criticism and having to defend yourself. Oh yes, it would be very easy to just give in and say "Ok, you win! No more!" But if we didn't believe in what we preached, we wouldn't be doing it! We are very much the minority these days Slug. So as Libby65 says, maybe atheism is the virus!

Also, I have also had personal experiences which you would no doubt put down to co-incidence. I have also seen God in many different people whose love and kindness have helped changed the face of the world - and yes these people do work for the love of God too. So even if you think God is a psychological need, you have to admit, he's done a whole lot of good and there is no doubting the moral blueprint he has set down for us - don't go quoting individual Church rules on that, just read the Sermon on the Mount or the Commandments.

Peace guys!

Now where has that slug gotten to?

Webmum, there is a scripture in the New Testament (not sure exactly where it is but I can find it if you wish) which says that men who do not believe in God are without excuse, because the proof of his existence is all around us, in nature and in the universe. In other words if people really looked at the precise way in which the earth and the solar system function, and considered the billions of life-forms on this planet with their own unique designs and capabilities, they would have to admit the existence of a creator. As Rhubarb said, to explain it all away as the random splitting of atoms or as a freak accident, is just absurd.

There's a website called Christian Answers Network which addresses just about every issue in relation to Christianity and the bible, including science vs faith, proof of existence, that kind of thing. If you want to have a look it's at www.christiananswers.net/home.html.

Libby65 sorry but I just don't see why it is so asburd to explain life with the existence of God, it may seem logical to you but not to me. Also, nature itself is not perfect, there are all sorts of things thatc ause havoc all the time, why would God allow illnesses especially in young children? If God exists, then to me he has not done such a good job. (and please don't tell that everything bad that happens is always man's fault, we are not that powerful!)
Rhubarb, you're right you can't prove either (obviously), that's my point, you iether believe or not. Christians look around them and see a perfect world which must have been created bya perfect being. I see a lot of things that would do with some improvement and therefore cannot believe in a perfetc being.

At the end of teh day I think you can look at the same thing and still see it with different eyes.

'Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder' (hope it's spelt ok)

I think this is the truth.

To me (being a spiritual person and someone with a degree in astrophysics) discussions of science vs. religion don't make much sense. Science is the how and Religion the why - neither have to be mutually exclusive.