just something to share

[threeangels]

I know war has been a lot more on many minds lately. I found this sight and wanted to share it with anyone who is interested.

I also want to say that any mumsnetters who have any family members going to war along with everyone else in the world will be in my thoughts and prayers.

Are We Nearing the End Times?
Did you know all the signs Jesus said would signify His second coming are occurring in our time?
The Rev. Billy Graham, Pope John Paul II and numerous Orthodox Jewish rabbis have all said they believe that the coming of the Messiah is very near. Why? Because so many Bible prophecies are being fulfilled.

When Jesus' disciples asked what would signal His return, He gave them several signs to watch for. He also taught that the time immediately before His coming would be known as the "beginning of sorrows" (Matt. 24:8), which in English means the "onset of labor pains."

Jesus was saying the signs of His coming would start out as mild pangs spaced widely apart like human labor and then gradually become closer together and more intense, like the birth process, until this seven-year period of suffering and judgment would culminate in the coming of the Messiah.

The Signs
Consider the signs that Jesus said would be the prelude to His return and notice how they've begun to occur in our time:

False Christs The past few decades have witnessed a huge upsurge in charismatic leaders claiming to be Christ or the Jewish Messiah, including the Moonies' Rev. Sun Moon, the Buddhist Dalai Lama, the Hindu Krishnamurti, and the Bahais' Baha Ullah, to name a few. Collectively, their followers number in the u millions. . Jesus replied to them, "See that none misleads you; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many." Matt. 24:4,5
War War in the original Greek of Matthew 24 is ethnos, meaning ethnic or racial war. A recent editorial in Time magazine reported there are presently 67 wars being fought around the planet and most of them are ethnic wars, including the recent slaughter in Rwanda and Bosnia. According to the National Defense Council Foundation, conflicts around the globe have doubled since 1989. "... you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars..." Matt. 24:6,7
Famine The LA Times reported recently that more than one billion people suffer from serious malnutrition, exacerbated in the past months by worldwide drought. More than 35 million people living mostly in the southern states of Africa suffer from acute hunger and are threatened with imminent death. "There will be famines..." Matt. 24:7.
Pestilence The rate of infectious diseases has increased 58% since 1980, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control. Diseases once considered conquered are now reappearing, sometimes in drug-resistant forms. AIDS has become a worldwide scourge, and viral diseases such as Ebola pose an international threat because of transcontinental flight. "There will be pestilences." Matt. 24:7.
Earthquakes The number of dangerous earthquakes measuring 6.0 or greater on the Richter scale has been steadily increasing since the 1950s when there were nine. In the 1960s, there were 13. In the 1970s, 51. In the 1980s, 86. In the 1990s more than100 such serious earthquakes have already been recorded, according to the LA Herald Examiner. "There will be...earthquakes in various places." Matt. 24:7.
The Seas and Waves Roaring The Associated Press reports that the most recently completed Atlantic hurricane season produced 11 hurricanes, 8 tropical storms, and $7.7 billion in damage. Serious flooding has also occurred recently in the U.S., Russia, Japan, Mexico, China, Europe, Korea, and the United Kingdom, according to Barron's. "There will be bewilderment at the roaring of the sea and waves." Luke 21:25.
Great Signs in the Heavens The 1994 comet Shoemaker-Levy 9, a string of 21 space rocks that slammed into Jupiter with the power of thousands of nuclear explosions, could be a heavenly sign. Jupiter is the mythological king of the planets and in Christian symbolism it is a representation of Christ. The 21 explosions are reminiscent of the 21 judgments that will befall Earth during the seven-year period that ushers in the coming of the Messiah, according to the Book of Revelation. The comet Hyakutake has recently lit up the night sky, and what promises to be the spectacular comet Hale-Bopp, first sighted in 1995, is scheduled to come nearest to our sun in the spring of 1997. "Great signs shall there be from heaven." Luke 21:11.
Violence Since 1960 violent crime has increased in the U.S. by 560%, according to FBI statistics, and the number of reported cases of child abuse in the U.S. has risen from 670,000 in 1976 to nearly 3 million in the 1990s. Other nations are experiencing similar dramatic increases in violent crime, reports the San Francisco Chronicle. "...as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Mt. 24:37. ("And God said unto Noah, '...the earth is filled with violence...'" Gen. 6:13.)
Gospel Preached to the Whole World Pope John Paul II has traveled to 70-plus nations during his pontificate, preaching the gospel to millions. The Rev. Billy Graham recently conducted a week-long crusade from Costa Rica translated into every language on the planet and broadcast via satellite around the globe. With Communism's collapse, Christian radio and TV are now reaching into almost every nook and cranny of planet Earth. "...and this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached to the whole world and then the end shall come." Mt. 24:14.
All of the signs that Jesus said would precede His return seem to be occurring in our time.

Other Prophecies Fulfilled
Other prophecies relating to this seven-year period of judgment, coming from many parts of the Bible, have also begun to be fulfilled:

Israel reborn as a nation in 1948 (Ezek. 4:3-6, Lev. 26:18)
Israel surrounded by hostile Arab countries (Psalm 83:4-8)
Jerusalem inhabited by the Jews (Luke 21:24)
Israel negotiates a peace treaty with her enemies (Daniel 9:27)
Doomsday weapons threaten earth (Joel 2:3)
Ecological devastation occurs (Rev. 11:18)
The Roman Empire revives as the European Union (Daniel 2:40-44)
Heresies become widespread (II Thess. 2:3)
Russia rises as a military power (Ezek. 38:1-12)
A hole in the ozone layer develops (Rev. 16:8.9)
TV communications are global (Revelation 11:9,10)
Satanic and cultic activity arises (I Tim. 4:1)
Sub-dermal microchips for identification purposes proposed by the U.S. military (Rev. 13:16,17)
Massive increases in wealth occur (Jas. 5:3)
GATT and World Trade Organization become possible forerunners of a world government (Rev. 13:7)
Asia possesses resources for a 200-million-man army (Rev. 9:14-16)
The Euphrates River can be dried up (Rev. 16:12-v 14) and a military highway linking Asia to the Middle East is being completed (Rev. 9:14)
Knowledge vastly increases (Dan. 12:4)
Russian and Ethiopian Jews return to Israel (Jer. 23:7,8; Zeph. 3:10)
The Hebrew language is recovered (Zeph. 3:9)
Jerusalem is rebuilt in nine specific directions (Jer. 31:38-40)
Levites and priests train for Temple service (Ezek. 43:14,15)
Israel's rainfall increases dramatically (Joel 2:23) and the country becomes fertile and blossoms (Isa. 27:6)
Men become more selfish, arrogant, abusive, ungrateful, fierce and treacherous (II Tim. 3:2,3)
Where We Fit In
Referring to these signs, Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." (Luke 21:24-28).

If we are approaching that seven-year period that precedes the second coming of Christ - and all the signs indicate we are - the Bible tells us those years of judgment upon the earth will be accompanied by untold human suffering.

But believers in Christ who have sincerely placed their trust in Him can be certain of the redemption to which Jesus referred, for He promised His followers that "God has not destined us for wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).

So where does that leave you? Are you one of God's children who's been called to believe in His Son but has rejected each invitation? Where are you going to spend the seven years of God's wrath? And the rest of eternity?

Jesus told us that "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, so that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John. 3:16). But He went on to say that "...he who does not believe is already condemned because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God" (John. 3:18).

Is it too late for you to find salvation?
Not yet. God designed an "escape hatch" for us by offering His only Son to die a miserable death on a cross so that our sins could be blotted out in our Creator's sight and we could be reconciled to Him.

All we have to do is accept His Son as the perfect sacrifice for our sins. By doing this our loving Father promised that, "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor heart imagined the wonderful things God has prepared for those who love Him" (1 Cor. 2:9).

Would you like to receive those "wonderful things" in the everlasting life Christ promised His followers? Do you want to know how to accept God's Son? It's simple. All you have to do is sincerely pray this prayer: "Lord Jesus, I know I'm a sinner and need Your forgiveness. I believe that you died for my sins and I want to turn away from my wrongdoing. Right now I'm inviting you to come into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You, making You my Lord and Savior. Amen."

What Next?
If you prayed this and meant it, you need to start talking to God through prayer, reading the Scriptures daily to get to know God better, and find a church where Christians like you worship Christ and where the good news of the Bible is being preached.

Remember, you are now Christ's representative to a needy world that appears to be embarking upon the period of unimaginable suffering that precedes Christ's second coming. You can help lead others to the Truth you've discovered and enable them to avoid the agony to come. Don't put this off. Today is the day of salvation. Tomorrow may be too late. God bless you on your journey.

If you would like to pursue a more in-depth study of Bible prophecy, books by Hal Lindsey, Grant Jeffrey, Jack Van Impe, Peter LaLonde, and John Walvoord among others are available at most Christian bookstores.

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ICL Net: Christian Literature on the Net
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Christian Coalition Home Page
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Lions Den
Jack Van Impe Home Page
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No more evidence for evolution than God??????????? You are kidding please??????? Man is an ape- you don't need a missing link. We did not evolve form chimps before we go down that road, we share a fairly recent common ancestor and there is plenty of evidence for this - fossil records, mitochondrial DNA, and genetic evidence to start with. I think about the only place in the world that evolution by natural selection is now taught as a theory is the American deep south.

Whatever you believe about God, there is plenty of evidence for evolution by natural selection. Evolution does not rule out possiblity of existence of a God granted. Some Christians for example like to say that God created original life and then left natural selection to get on with it. However what natural selection does do is remove the need for a God.

Jimjams, where are the fossil records you are talking of? As far as I am aware, man has been searching for the fossil remains of a half man half chimp for decades! Remember the programme that was on a while back about the 'man-chimp'? They all thought this could be the evidence they were looking for - the missing link. Turned out the chimp was just another species, albeit a rather strange one.
Yes our DNA is close, but it is also very close to pig's DNA too, and almost every other mammal on the earth, there is no 'hard' evidence that we evolved directly from apes. No fossiled remains, just theories corroborated by circumstantial evidence.

Hi, there! Wow, this is some thread - i've been lurking and it's given me loads to think about. I don't really have a faith although i wish i did because it obviously means a great deal to those who have one. But maybe ultimately, religion is just a very good way to control society and the masses.

Regarding the difficulties of interpreting what God wants (as shown by this thread) - how is a less able or an uneducated person to untangle all this? Would the message of the Bible have been clear as day to everyone, at the time? Has the passing of years muddied it? What about people who are severley brain daamaged? How can they have an understanding if they are unable to think?

Whilst lots of religious people do indeed do good works, they are not the only ones. Being ethical and moral isn't exclusivly a religious trait. Isn't it possible to act well towards others because you feel it's the right thing - sort of do-as-you-would-be-done-by? Rhubarb's story about the retreat is intersting but actually, i think the priests are as hypocritical as the friend, for even asking for money in return for their hospitality. Buddhist monasteries i know of abroad wouldn't dream of asking a guest for recompense. Shelter and food are given freely, with no thought of reward.

Bloss said - "If you notice, people are judged according to what they have done. There is no indication that anyone at that point is judged worthy of going to heaven. They COULD all just be condemned at that point. THEN another book, the book of life, is opened, and those whose name is written in the book of life are saved. That seems to me to confirm the rest of the teaching in the Bible that we are NOT judged on what we have done (because that would only condemn us) but in fact are saved on another criterion altogether (viz, our acceptance of Jesus's sacrifice on our behalf)."
To me, that seems to mean you can sin as much as you like in the knowledge that you'll still get to heaven if you accept God. What is the incentive not to sin, if you know that God will forgive you anyway?

On the question of religion being responsible for people doing terrible things, it seems to me that the stock reply is always a rather child-like "it wasn't one of us, Miss" as if to deny any connection with religion. It feels like people just want to shrug off collective responsibility when i think it would be better to meet the challenge head on and publicly by questioning these people. I'd really like to see e.g. Tony Blair asked to account for his Christianity and his decision to wage war. I know there is a fine line to be trodden between publicity and throwing religion in people's faces but in lots of ways i think Christians are too reticent. If they truly beleive their message they should be proud (if that isn't a sin!) of it and shout it from the heights!

GeorginaA, like I said earlier -

Going back a bit with regard to Jesus not condemning homosexuality, in Mark 10:7 he specifically refers to an old testament scripture which says that from the beginning, God has meant for man and woman to be together. He says that a man shall leave his mother and father and become 'one' with his wife, and what God has brought together let no man put asunder (separate). He also speaks several times about adultery and divorce, but only between a man and a woman. Homosexuality is clearly condemned in the old testament and Jesus consistently referred to old testament scripture ("It is written...". He never refuted anything that was in the old testament. He said that he came "not to destroy the Law, but to fulfil it." So for Jesus to support homosexuality would go against everything that he was.

Perhaps it is just your opinion that Jesus was not against homosexuality, because that is simply what you wish to believe.

But having said that!! I do not want to say that a gay person is any worse than anybody else, as we have all done wrong in some form or another. God would in no way condemn a homosexual person who wanted to come to him and commit their life to him - but it's the same for all of us (according to the BIBLE - not according to me), we can't keep living in sin and have a relationship with God at the same time. This goes for anyone. As someone pointed out, what about those preachers who have committed adultery or slept around while they are supposed to be a responsible member of the church? They've probably committed a worse sin than anyone else, because they are are in a position of power in the church and have abused it - they simply gave in to their own desires even though they knew better. But I believe if anyone really wants to know God, he is able to help them in any area of their lives. Men do what they do because they are human - they can do a lot of good or a lot of damage.

In Romans 1:26-27 it says (referring to the old testament) "Even the women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." I think you'll find that homosexuality is not advocated anywhere in the bible. But every individual also has the freedom of choice about how they live their lives.

(Following my referral to gay clergy earlier - it is just one example I was using about the church today, I was not trying to say that homosexuals were worse than anybody else.)

message withdrawn

Rhubarb man did not evolve from chimps so if someone is looking for a half chimp they are wasting their time. Man eveolved from the same apeas as chimps. Recent evidence suggests the timescale was something like this:

between 13 and 22 mya gibbon line diverged
between 12 and 19 mya orang-utan line diverged
between 4 and 10 mya humans chimps and gorillas diverged.

As for DNA evidence, it isn't a case of these things being similar to each other. Yes of course our DNA is similar to a pigs, pigs are mammals. In evolutionary terms we are very very similar to a pig. However what you ca do now is take actual sequences of DNA and compare them base for base allowing an evolutionary tree to be built up. So if you compared sequences between a pig a chimp and a human, the chimp and human would come out on the same branch with the pig on a separate one. This shows that the chimp and human have a more recent common ancestor than the human and pig. It does not show that humans evolved from chimps because they didn't. This method is commonly used to look at how say different species or sub-species of modern organisms are related to each other. In this case showing that the chimp and human are closely related.

There are other methods of molecular type evidence that give the same answer, you can anneal dna of different species, you can look at proteins. In all cases chimps come out as our closest living relatives.

Fossil evidence. The early human fossil record is patchy. Mainly becuase fossil evidence for everything is patchy, BUT there are plenty of early human fossils. For example "lucy" is an australopithecine- they lived between 4 million and 1 million years ago. they show clear features of both apes and humans. They probably wlaked upright - although nto necesasarily comfortably. They have long arms (ape feature) and probably spent time in trees. They had small brains and showed reduced incisors (human) features. Later early humans - for which there are fossils are Homo habilis (2.4-1.6mya) Homo erectus (1.8-0.3 mya), Neanderthals (which are sometimes seen as a subspecies of sapiens and sometimes as a seprate sepcies- 150 000- 30 000 years BP) and Homo sapiens (archaic form 400000-100000 years ago, early modern 130000-60000 years ago).

Of course fossil evidence isn't perfect but the autralopithecines are certainly somewhere between man and apes.

don't know what happened to my typing in the last message- it's early and the house is cold....

Rhubarb- the genetic work that has been done on human relationships etc has been used to look at all sorts of evolutionary trees- from bacteria (where you can see evolution taking place- think antibiotic resitance) to mice to whatever. I know someone working on fossil and present day forms of geese for example. There's nothing unusual about the human work and it gives pretty clear results.

Well, I think that a person is more than a collection of cells made up of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen etc. And there is more to the universe than we can pick up with our 5 senses or measure with scientific instruments.

I don't dispute that our physical bodies are the result of evolution. But our particular shape (with its "flaws" may not be all that relevant to God, since our bodies are just containers for our souls and spirits.

What would you think if you heard about someone who donated one of their kidneys so a sick child could live? Would you admire them or think they were stupid, as according to "survival of the fittest" the child should have been allowed to die.

I believe in good and evil, and right and wrong. And I bet an awful lot of you do too. Isn't it possible these things are real and not just related to self-interest and the continuation of the human race.

Got to go now, or I'll be late for church...

I may beleive in evolution by natural selection but I do not believe in eugenics. I most certainly am not a Nazi. I'm the mother of a disabled child for god's sake! Any attempt at "improving" the human race makes me feel sick- my child would be first in the firing line- so please do not even attempt to align my views with those. Evolution by natural selection has absolutely nothing to do with the eugenics arguement.

Anyway that is a very simplistic argument. Some diseases - for example sickle cell anaemia exist because of the effect of natural selection (people carrying one copy of the sickle cell allele have increased resistence to malaria).

Natural selection is less about "survival of the fittest" and far more about leaving the most offspring- or more accurately leaving the most genes. Some organisms die after mating- they are fit in an evolutionary sense becuase they are passing on their genes- but they're not surviving for ages and ages.

As I said before natural selection does not prove that a god doesn't exist- it just removes the necessity for a creator of man. If someone chooses to believe in a god then that is fine by me, but like it or not natural selection happens as does evolution and I don't see the big deal in applying it to humans.

i can defend my faith
but maybe not my religeon or any religeon - and i certainly cannot even speak to the people who are intent on proving their point through biblical quotes, as i believe it is people such as these which hang on the every word of the bible who are the bigots and the zealots who believe their religeon is the only one true religeon and the rest are damned. it zealous people like this who use religeon to kill people.
you cannot argue with religeous zealots they have no other point of view.

am quite proud to say this discussion has made me ponder from time to time.

i truly believe the most bigoted racist sexist people are religeos.

in my old congregation for instance - a severely disabled woman - who was racist - i expected she would know more than most barriers people come up against because of their differences - thats why i was so shocked. however that taught me that i judged that person a "nicer" person simply becuase she was disabled. it reminded me not to judge

we also had a running candidate for the BNP whose children went to the same catholic school as my children did and he NEVER missed mass.

i dont understand the mentality??? it makes my mind go antwacky - how can you go to church and think this way?

more examples
purple hair and twin set, gloves, pearls - the same group gossip at the back of church " oooohhhhhh i know ethel, its disgusting she should come to church dressed that way"..etc

those are my personal experiences.

in my new parish i dont know anyone, its not firendly - i dont look forwad to going to church and when the kids were small it was a hell of a thing to get there sit through mass with kids screaming and then get home again - but i did it - and glad i did, but feel that the church could have helped out a little by being a little more child friendly.

but i go to church to affirm my faith - and to say thanks for what i have

christians dont live by christian standards most of the time - those that do are in my experiences very judgemental. its very rare i meet a good hearted christian, i usually just meet closed minded people.

when i meet someone i can tell if they have a good heart, then, i dont care if they are black white religeous or not, gay straight or into sexual stranglation. the good heart shines through. i wish i could be seen like that by other people, however my diplomacy skills are somewhat lacking.

Oh Jimjams, I had no idea your child was disabled, but I certainly wasn't suggesting that you, or anyone else here, would be in favour of letting sick or disabled children die. I'm really sorry if you took it that way - I was actually taking it for granted that none of us would think it stupid to save a life like that, and most of us actually approve of selfless acts of kindness and generosity, which seems to suggest to me that there is more to us than just a need to pass on genes.

I'm not arguing against evolution, or natural selection or even saying we're not animals. I'm only saying that I think we are more than just animals.

By-the-way, I didn't mean the in my last post - should have previewed.

Libby - interesting you should pick up on Mark 10:7 and such a shame that you didn't read it in the context of the whole passage. Jesus says that in response to Pharisees who ask him whether it is legal for a man to divorce his wife. The entire passage is:

"Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?"

"What did Moses command you?" he replied.

They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away."

"It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied.

"But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.''For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.""[Mark 10:2-9]

The passage is quite clearly stressing the sanctity of marriage and how important it is, not addressing the homosexual issue at all.

Thanks for pointing the passage out though, I think it demonstrates quite nicely the danger of quoting passages out of textual and cultural context to meet an agenda.

I have just re-read the post of mine that upset Jimjams, and I am feeling sick with shame. The paragraph I wrote does sound like an accusation - like I'm saying that people who believe in evolution think "imperfect" children shouldn't be allowed to live. How horrible - I really, really didn't mean it like that. I meant that of course, none of us would think that. Bother, bother, bother!

Romans 1:26-27

There is quite an indepth discussion on the original wording of this and its subsequent translation, plus a look at the culture then here:

Religious Tolerance

It's rather lengthy though and it seemed rather silly for me to end up just copying it out on here, so I leave it for you to read if you're interested.

No worries jane101 - it's easy to be misunderstood on here- I just wanted to make sure that no-one thought I could possibly believe that eugenics was a good thing.

custardo- great post- agree with everything you say (and I'm an atheist). You are quite right to seperate your faith from religion. The church I used to attend was very friendly, and I have certainly come across caring congregations. It's a shame that it isn't always like that.

ks- I'm a zoologist by trade. Find theoretical evolution fascinating- until it starts getting mathematical then it totally loses me. I did my PhD in a lab that was doing a lot of work on evolutionary relationships of various races of mice/shrews/ other rodents. Spent a few years teaching A level human biology- the board I'm most familiar with had a section on human evolution. TBH it's a nightmare to remember as it's lots of boring stuff about skulls and pelvic girdles, but the overall picture was very interesting.

Thanks Jimjams. Sorry I posted without thinking.

JimJams, while genetics can say that our DNA points to our having evolved from apes, it can give no firm evidence that we actually are. Just as the Bible points to there being a God. No fossilised remains of a human ape have been found, just some funny-looking skulls that prove nothing. To believe in evolution also requires a certain amount of faith, the gaps are filled in by theorists using any evidence that is available and their knowledge. I am comparing this to God as I do believe there are parallels. Atheists cannot claim that we are easily-led and brainwashed when they too, have their beliefs in scientists theories - I cannot see the difference.

So whilst I am not knocking evolution, it is my way of asking for a bit of respect for those of us who do believe in God. Yes it does require a leap of faith, but we are not the only ones to believe in something that has not been proved beyond all question.

"Perhaps it is just your opinion that Jesus was not against homosexuality, because that is simply what you wish to believe."

Perhaps Libby it is your interpretation that Jesus was against homosexuality because that is simply what YOU wish to believe.

Robinw I believe that religions are dangerous because they can be used as a convenient label to justify all manner of prejudice. Just witneww the argument about homosexuality going on here. These labels have great power, because in the end, if you believe in god, you cannot argue with what god says. I don't for a minute believe that the major thought going through the September 11 hijacker's minds as they flew the planes into the buildings was the thousand dark eyed houris promised to them by the Quran for all martyrs. The felt aggrieved by the USA, with some good reason, and these feelings of justice and impotence were stirred up and given a legitimacy by religious leaders.

Oh for goodness sake Rhubarb, I reiterated my point because no one really answered it in the first place. Do you honestly think all the good in the world is only done by those with religion to guide them? How about Medicin sans frontiers? I know plenty of athiests who do good deeds without feeling the need to shout it from the rooftops. They have nothing to prove. Society is capable of working perfectly well without a religious basis for morals. Or perhaps you are just a lapsed athiest with a chip on your shoulder?

Thank you Jimjams and nugirl for being far more elequent than I could ever be.

Oh Rhubarb please. The skeletons of australopithecines are slightly more than funny looking skulls that prove nothing. And as the common name for australopithecines is "ape-men" I'm not sure what else you are looking for.

As for genetics and evoltution - this can be observed in bacteria. They have such short generation times that genetic changes and evolution can be observed. I fail to see that a leap of faith is required for evolution. I'll repeat the most obvious example- antibiotic resistance in bacteria. No leap of faith required there. Incidentally when antibiotics were first prodced evolutionary biologists warned at the time that over-use could lead to resistance. Didn't take long for that to come true.

As I said before I have no problem with someone wanting to believe in a God, but to say that to beleive in natural selection and evolution requires the same leap of faith is frankly wrong.

Yes Georgina, a man and his wife. Not a man and a man. Please find me somewhere in the bible that permisses a man to take a husband, the same way it permisses a man to take a wife. Please remember that we are discussing what is written in the bible, not MY personal views of homosexuals. They are people like the rest of us.

I'll repeat again what I said before. The old testament does not condone homosexuality, in fact it considers it to be a sin. Jesus came as a fulfillment of the law and of the old testament. If Jesus had opposed what was written in the old testament, that would have made him in opposition to the very document that prophesied his coming. He only opposed the religious leaders who were oppressing people and pretending to live by the law, when they really weren't. That's why he called them hypocrites. What Jesus said was that we are now bound by a new covenant, a covenant of grace, but he also said that if we profess to believe in him, we are not to continue to live in sin once we know the truth. I do not wish to debate this anymore because as far as I am concerned, people have the freedom to find out what the word of God says for themselves (and not rely on simply what they hear from others) and then decide for themselves if they want to believe it or not. Of course they are free not to accept it if that is their decision. But there is plenty of evidence around for the Christian faith if people are willing to accept it.

With regard to evolution vs creation, I thought Jimjams may find the following arguments against evolution interesting. It takes the following points into consideration.

• Abrupt appearance of animals. All the different, basic kinds of animals appear abruptly and fully functional in the strata - with no proof of ancestors. "Evolution requires intermediate forms between species and paleontology does not provide them." (David Kitts, paleontologist and Evolutionist) Darwin was embarrassed by the fossil record. It contains no proof for macroevolution of animals.

• Plants appear abruptly, too. Evolutionist Edred J.H. Corner: "... I still think that to the unprejudiced, the fossil record of plants is in favor of special creation." (Evolution in Contemporary Thought, 1961, p.97) Scientists have been unable to find an Evolutionary history (beginning to end) for even one group of modern plants.

• Animals unchanged. Contrary to common belief, most fossils are not of extinct types of animals. Most fossils are very similar (and often totally identical) to creatures living today. It is said there are many more living species of animals than there are types known only as fossils. If Evolution is true, one may wonder why the case is not just the reverse! Evolutionary history is supposed to be filled with temporary, intermediate stages of Evolution, from amoeba to man.

• Sufficient fossils. There is a continuing lack of evidence for Evolution despite an enormous number of fossils. Although scientists will continue to discover new varieties of fossil animals and plants, it is generally agreed that the millions of fossils already discovered (and the sediments already explored) provide a reliable indication of which way the evidence is going. That is, there will continue to be little or no fossil evidence found to support Evolutionism.

• Fast strata formation. There is increasing evidence that many sedimentary rocks, which some thought took thousands or millions of years to accumulate, almost certainly were deposited in only months, days, hours, or minutes.

• Rapid coal formation. The old Evolutionary theory about coal forming in swamps is wrong. There is increasing evidence that massive coal deposits were formed in deep flood waters. Various coal layers in the U.S. consist mainly of sheets of tree bark abraded from huge masses of uprooted trees. The bark layers were buried in mud and carbonized into coal. Coal formation is relatively quick when heat is applied.

• Fossilization requires very special conditions. Dinosaur and other fossils could not have formed in the way suggested by most Evolutionary books. Animals almost never fossilize unless they are buried quickly and deeply - before scavengers, bacteria and erosion reduce them to dust. Such conditions are highly unusual. In almost all cases, the very existence of the fossils, in the types and numbers discovered, strongly indicates catastrophic conditions were involved in their burial and preservation. Without such conditions, there seems to be no plausible way to explain their existence. Huge dinosaurs, huge schools of fish, and many diverse animals are found entombed by massive muddy sediments which hardened into rock. Almost all fossils are found in water-laid sediments.

• Wrong order for evolution. It has been reported that "80 to 85% of Earth's land surface does not have even 3 geologic periods appearing in 'correct' consecutive order" for Evolution.

• The fossil record does not provide evidence in support for Evolution. "Fossils are a great embarrassment to Evolutionary theory and offer strong support for the concept of Creation." (Dr. Gary Parker, Ph.D., Biologist/paleontologist and former Evolutionist)

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