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Original poster

War - what does it really mean ?

271 replies

Tillysmummy · 18/03/2003 09:50

Im feeling very worried and sad about this today. Is anyone else feeling like this - silly question im sure most people are. I am very nervous about the implications. Its amazing how since having my daughter all these emotions and fears are heightened I guess out of an instinct to protect her.
I'd be very interested in other's opinions and feelings.

OP posts:
hmb · 21/03/2003 15:47

Phillipat,

Having thought a bit more (and note to myself stop thinking until you have made sure that ds can't get to the eggs), I don't think that a person's job has much impact on their personality for a large number of people. I was thinking specificaly of my Father. He has a boring, soul destroying job as a tailors presser in a local factory. However, he never saw himslf as circumscribed by his job. He threw himself into so many different things, he was the local union rep, he was the national chair of the union, he was a local councellor, lay preacher at the baptist church we went to, and set up and chaired the local civic society, he was a keen fisherman, and fitted in the family as well as all of that! If someone judged him on his job they would have been miles out. And loads of other people are the same. I think the issue is who someone is, not what they are.

Philippat · 21/03/2003 16:07

Oh dear, I'm beginning to think it must all be down to my prejudices, I hate it when that happens. :0

One to keep pondering.

Jimjams · 21/03/2003 16:58

Well my values are completely at odds with my job as well. Formal education- nope not necessarily for that either. May well home ed ds1 as the formal educaiton isn't suitable - we won't go down the autonomous route as it wouldn't work for him, but I can understand totally why people do.

I'm still not sure people get values from their job. The majority of people I know do their job to earn a wage that's it.

The only people I know (and I can think of 2) who have done unconventional things and have avoided working in boring mony making jobs becuase of values, haven't had to work because they've both had very large trust funds (and I mean millions).

Obviously sme people do have a strong sense of moral responsibility- working for something like medecine sans frontiers must demonstrate certian values- but I bet very few of the workers have families to support.

Yes yes sml- only criminals here would be the politicians not the servicemen.

Enid · 21/03/2003 18:32

This thread has gone off topic a bit but I just want to say how upset and shocked I was watching the destruction of Baghdad on the television this evening.

Tinker · 21/03/2003 19:44

Enid - Shock & Awe? Disgust more like.

Phillipat - I do know, slightly, what you're getting at. There are certain professions and jobs that would make me think twice about getting to know the man further. Doubt I'd pursue a policeman. However, my job is about investigating tax fraud and many of my colleagues get tempted to the 'other side' (accountancy firms) to initiate tax avoidance schemes etc. Personally, I find that immoral and would never seriously consider doing that type of work, regardless of the pay differentials. But, my boyfriend used to work for 'us' and has 'gone over'. I give him some stick about this but also, I realise that his heart isn't in the job he's doing, he didn't choose it to reflect his personality, more out of economic necessity. I suppose I would only seriously be wary of someone on my list of disliked occupations if they defined themselves by that job. As already said, most people really just fall into their jobs.

lucy123 · 21/03/2003 19:55

Enid - it is quite frightening to see the bombing live like that. Generally I don't like this kind of blanket media coverage, but in this case it does serve to remind us all that war is never "clean". It should make the command chain think even more carefully before ordering attacks though.

hmb - it must be very hard for you - all the best.

janh · 21/03/2003 20:06

hmb,

And not what they earn or what they own either. Bot for an awful lot of people those are the only things that count.

Their loss.

Tortington · 21/03/2003 20:38

i know that france have signed agreements over oil and agree with you completely that they get huge concessions over oil and maybe thats why they used their veto - however they knew it wouldnt stop america even if they did use it - so when america win - os they rule the world remember - doesnt that mean france has shot themselves in the foot - so why didnt they just go with the flow like we did - supprt the rulers of the world - america - so when they win the war france goes in good books with us?

Jimjams · 21/03/2003 20:45

Interesting Tinker as dh works as a tax and trusts lawyer and he sees situations where well off (but not screaming rich) people have through no fault of their own (usually an incompetent lawyer/accountant somewhere) become liable for a huge tax burden that they can't afford (and will suffer for- you know struggle to keep kids at their private school or whatever)- but the IR just want thier money. So for him lots of the stuff the IR does seems evil!! (You know big machine against the small man type thing). Interesting to see the other viewpoint.

Well said janh.

On a war note very sad to hear of the marines killed today- I live in Plymouth. I'm sure it will be felt here.

I do find the coverage pretty incredible. Very surreal to be sitting on my armchair watching Baghdad being blown to bits. Just hope the missiles are as accurate as they say they are.

louche · 21/03/2003 21:50

HMB have just read this thread and am wishing you loads of strength and I believe the term is cyber hugs.....also much RISPECK for dealing with it. I often moan about how often my dh is away - but he is an ACTOR for goodness' sake - this puts things in massive perspective.How old are your kids, what do they know about what their daddy is doing?

I'm totally anti this war, incidentally - but am not a pacifist - simply believe, like many others, that it is a terrible precedent to go against the UN, that Bush is a loon, that Saddam does not pose a specific threat to UK, that we need to deal with Israel/Palestine first, that terrorism is a separate thing,that we risk totally destabilising the global community).

Sabbath · 21/03/2003 21:55

I think it is like watching a war movie, very scary stuff, I am totally confused on what is going on, we are getting so many different stories. Feel very sorry for the troops and their families.

ks · 21/03/2003 22:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

JJ · 21/03/2003 22:07

What news resources do you guys use? I'm asking because I have my favourite few, but would love to find out what everyone else uses. Mine are mainly internet (I'm in Switzerland so only get CNN and Cartoon Network in English-- ask me what Tom and Jerry got up to today, unfortunately, I know in detail).

And I have to say that the PhD crack was so out of line. Unless you actually don't know what it means. Otherwise, happydays, it was just insulting. I'm saying this as a person who has prefaced many an argument about the war with the words, "Well Croppy says...". (No, I don't agree completely with what she says, but the information is, well, informative and thought provoking. Inspiring, perhaps? Inspiring definitely in the sense that I get out and do a bit more reading on the issues discussed.)

seahorse · 21/03/2003 22:10

louche

Its not Jude Law is it???....

hmb - lots of cyber hugs from me - my dh is ok but in the helicpoters at lot at the moment - those poor marine wives - can't imagine what they are going through - hope it's all over quickly.

I'm a lawyer married to a soldier - what does that make us then! - a good match according to some of this thread...I had to spend the day with a client in Nottingham today and when I come back to check this thread it's gone a bit mad - but a bit less serious than previous days which I like but I know some prefer a good political argument - it's great that we can all air our thoughts views and fears on this thread.

hmb · 21/03/2003 23:05

Seahorse, cyberhugs to you !

Had an e-mail from dh so he is OK. It is an awful thing for everyone to have to live through.

I'd like to thank everyone for all the support, and stimulating 'conversation' today. You have all helped me get through a difficult day.

Mumsnet is the bizz.

Tinker · 22/03/2003 10:56

JimJams - I'm certainly NOT IR

Jimjams · 22/03/2003 11:21

Oh sorry Tinker!!! Did I use a swear word! Thought it was strange someoen thought them worthy- lol

donnie · 22/03/2003 11:32

apparently CNN television has been ordered out of Iraq because they are so intensely anti Moslem propagandists....

Tigger2 · 23/03/2003 14:47

Croppy, without being offensive here, you having a PHD does not make one s* of a difference. It is patently clear that Blair is trying to be a dictator, and I don't have a PHD I've got good old common bloody sense! How could Claire Short be so "anti" then suddenly become very pro, wouldn't be surprised if she has had a wage rise or a promise of a better job within the cabinet. The man is a dictator, if fact a small child has better behaviour than him, he stamps his feet and has a tantrum and everybody is meant to agree with him. This present establishment , will in the long run ruin this country, oh but yes lending is low and inflation is at its best for over 5 years, like any other business it is very easy to fiddle the figures.
The man makes my blood boil, he is like a ferrett coming out of a hole, sneaky looking wee crater.

lucy123 · 23/03/2003 15:06

come on tigger2. What you are saying would make a lot of sense if TB had done what he did over the Afghanistan thing and simply sent the troops in without going to parliament, but the British parliament did vote for military action.

It may be that some of them only voted yes in order to advance their own careers, but the voters will get their say on that issue in a couple of year's time.

I'm against the war too, but I don't think that they should have a public referendum about every crisis (and anyway they probably would have won it if they had had one this time).

I agree that Blair has too much power, but this is generally because on almost every issue he can point out that the Tories have a worse track-record than he does (especially in the case of fiddling the figures - who redefined "unemployemnt" 18 times? who redefined inflation to exclude houseprices?). He is not a dictator though and will probably get a nasty surprise at the next election.

hmb · 23/03/2003 16:41

Lucy123, It is intersting that the polls I saw in the Times today were largley 'in favour' of the war. I realise it is the Times, but the anti war demonstration was also significantly reduced. I am not saying this means the war is right per se, however it does cast doubt on the assertion that Blair is a dictator because he is going against the will of the people.

Tank god my husband was not in the a/c shot down this morning. My thoughts are with the familt of the crew, and everyone else caught up in this dreadful time.

lucy123 · 23/03/2003 17:06

yes I saw that on the news. A plane from RAF Marham wasn't it? (could have got that wrong, wasn't concentrating on the news) It sent a chill down my spine as it's local to where we used to live. It shouldn't do that really - a death is a death wherever the person is from - but I guess even we world-citizens are still parochial at heart.

GRMUM · 23/03/2003 17:22

So glad your husband is safe hmb - i"ve been thinking of you all day.Hope everyones husbands are safe.

JJ · 23/03/2003 18:29

Tigger, I don't think Tony Blair is "trying to be a dictator" or "is a dictator". Yes, he's going against popular opinion, but that is what happens in a representative democracy sometimes. The alternatives are direct democracy or a politicians who make decisions based on polls and always with an eye to the next election. I don't think that direct democracy is the ideal. One of the reasons is this exact situation (ie a politician continuing with an obviously unpopular policy). There's an interesting website which gives the following argument (as one of many) for a representative democracy:
The Majority Rules: One of the advantages of the representative form of government is that our elected officials have a duty to rise above the interests of the majority and protect the rights of all people. Voters in a voting booth, however, are under no such obligation and frequently, although not always, vote for what is in their own best interests.

Now, I'm not trying to imply that Blair is doing anything noble, it's just that the fact he can act without the public behind him can be considered a good and even desirable thing in some instances. Obviously, you feel that this is not one of them and I'm not about to argue with you about that. The other alternative is for politicians who pander to public opinion. I certainly expect them to listen, but to decide for themselves whether or not it is the right thing to act.

hmb · 23/03/2003 19:20

Tigger2, not wishing to seem argumentative, but I don't think that dictators get people to do what they want by offering them a wage rise, they tend to do it by offering to kill them, and/or their family if they don't. Say you don't like him, say he is smarmy, say he has gone away from clause 4 and socialist principles, yup, but to call him a dictator seems IMHO to be wrong.