War - what does it really mean ?

[Tillysmummy]

Im feeling very worried and sad about this today. Is anyone else feeling like this - silly question im sure most people are. I am very nervous about the implications. Its amazing how since having my daughter all these emotions and fears are heightened I guess out of an instinct to protect her.
I'd be very interested in other's opinions and feelings.

I think RAF pilots are the one of the best in the world. If I had an RAF trained pilot flying my plane I'd instantly feel safer!! (And I hate flying with an absolute venegence). They do so many hours of training.

WWW I think you miss the point a bit. Hmb's dh - and the other- aren't the one's "doing this". The one's instigating the war are the politicians.
When you sign up you agree to fight for your country but you don't necessarily have to agree 100% with every conflict in which you are involved. I totally disagree with the politics involved in this- I think the whole thing is very very risky andthere could be world instability for years- there may not be but it is a gamble. However the blame for that lies with the politicians not the service personnel. I really feel for the families of those marines killed - it made me go cold when I heard it.

I also feel for the families Jimjams, awful news. I hate to fly! And I have bone to pick with you How could you recommend such a good book as The Red Tent??? I was up to almost midnight reading it, and was then woken by ds at 5.30! Actually it is just what I need at the moment to help to take my mind off things.

hmb, this is a bit off the topic (which has sort of cooled anyway) but if you don't mind me being nosy, I'm really intrigued about how you managed the transition from CND supporter to service wife.

Thankfully, it's not something I need to worry about, but I would have real qualms about marrying someone from the services, partly I guess because of the worry but from my theoretical standpoint more because I really don't like the job they do (this is not trying to be negative about your husband, I promise, just my personal viewpoint). Just wondered how you found it worked in your life.

Just wanted to say a bit about the soldiers and their choices. Fair enough when they join the army they are agreeing to fight for their country. However at the time they sign up certain political situations may not exist. Then later on war is declared and they have to fight whether they agree with that war or not - they don't actually have a choice. In previous wars if men refused to fight they themselves could be shot as deserters. Not sure exactly what would happen now but sure it would not be pleasant.

I don't agree with this war. I don't agree with any war. War means death and suffering and there is no moving away from that. I beleive any loss of life is wrong. Be that British/US troops, innocent iraqis, victims or terrorist attacks - its all wrong and horrible.

However I also understand that this war is complex. The motivations and rights and wrongs are not clear cut. Therefore although I hate it I can respect someone who has a different opinion to my own. This thread started out as a way of expressing fears about war and seeking support where needed. I everyone who posts here remembers that. There are plenty of other outlets for policitcal debates.

sml, I have a Phd in politics so I think I know the difference between a dictatorship and a democracy thanks very much. Dictatorship simply means a ruler whose word is law which is patently not the case in the UK.

What does PHD stand for anyway. Pretty Huge ..... (yes I do watch friends)

Spent 3 years at University trying to talk him out of it, fell in love and 'grew up'. I realised that simple disarming of atomic wepons would not solve any problems, as we could always make the evil things again if we wanted them. I realised that human society has to become mature enough to want not to use them, and that this was best done by forming trading/cultural/political links with other countries. It would be unthinkable for us to need to go to war with Japan or germany now, because out countries are so closly inter-linked. For me, at that realisation, I felt that the CND approcah was almost pointless, and was missing the more important issues.

I never had a problem with a standing armed force, as I am not a pacifist (although I accept the logic of their argument even if I disagree with it)

My Father was a socialist all his life, and we had lots of chats about this. He felt (as do I) that the world would be a far better place if here was no need of armies, or air forces, but as he said, the world is not led by angels. He remebered the second world war, and what doing nothing could lead to.

HTH. I like a nice intellectual discussion

Phillipat, and as a minor, jokey, point I am not a service wife. I am just plain old me!!

Years ago someone on Brian Hayes Radio 2 Saturday morning phone-in gave a brilliant definition of democracy as we experience it in the West: "the rule of the majority WITH THE CONSENT OF the minority".

The only thing wrong with is that in recent times it has been more like "the rule of the minority with the consent or even apathy of the majority".

In the context of the current situation, I do not believe that what Tony Bair is doing is "with the consent of the minority" and I feel that the democratic process has been damaged.

I also feel that the UN has been irrepairably damaged - not by France's instransigence, but by Amercia's intransigence. After all, it was America who said first that they were going to be going in whatever the UN said - prior to France making its statement about using its veto.

That, combined with the now greater risk of unpredictable terrorism that America has provoked with its invasion of Iraq, is what has made the world a much more dangerous place.

Whatever the result in Iraq - and I recognise that America will prevail - I am now genuinely frightened about the future of the world that my ds will live in.

hmb thanks for the insight, glad to hear you have a personality away from your husband (actually scary that some people don't). Still couldn't do it myself but agree with most of your points. I pleased for you that your love overcame your concerns. Do you think you might have 'grown' less CND-type as you got older anyway, if you'd persuaded him to become a plumber instead?

I think Katherine's point that as a member of the services you don't get a choice as to whether you agree with a specific war is very pertinent. I agree with peacekeeping missions (which I definitely think is a skilled professional job, not something you could train a conscript to do) but not pre-emptive strikes.

america rules the world and we must do what she says. thats what it comes down to.
now america will pat little old britain on the head when we want an economic scoobysnack, but france will just be sent hungry to its dog basket.

i love the french, shot themseles in the foot on principle - glad someone had principles, would rather have one foot and some principles.

Haven't joined the debate so far but am absolutely hooked reading people's perspectives. Custardo, your post was short and possibly I'm misunderstanding you but the French government may be touting principles however the hard truth is that they've also signed many agreements with Saddam to build/maintain/run his oil for him. I agree with many of the principles they have stated but have also recognised that its about power and money. My dh work for an Ammerican refinery plant builder and they are already tendering with their government for re-building the oil sites. I'm not saying that this war is purely about the oil. I'm aware its far more complicated than that with many other parts, but I do understand that the oil aspect is a major component even if everyone "plays it down".

Petrol panic buying round here. The DM suggested stocking up on bottled water and tinned food. Think I'd rather die to be honest.

Absolutely Wills - the French and Russians both benefit hugely economically from the Iraqi oil, and if the regime were toppled, they would both lose out financially. I can't help thinking that's their reasoning behind their veto stance!

ha ha ha hmb- The Red Tent is a fantastic book isn't it!! It was my choice for our book club and I was surprised to find that everyone enjoyed it. I'm not sure it would be a good book to read if you were pregnant for the fist time though (right I'm off to get my birthing bricks)

Philippat- surely you fall in love with someone for who they are, not for what their job is? I disagree with dh fairly frequently about politics although our views are broadly similar (by choice he reads the Indie- I read the Guardian- although we'll both buy the Telegraph at times!) However I know people with very dissimilar views who are happily married. In fact I find certain aspects of Dh's job distatestful (he's a lawyer and saves very rich people even more money) but all it is is a job. I don't believe that when people sign up for the services that future war is even something they consider a great deal. I've never heard of anyone joining up to fight (not since WW2!). My Dad joined the navy to travel and because as a working class 15 year old he needed to get a job to bring money into the family. He hated the 26 years he spent in the services but I don't think fighting was a big part of his decsion. Obviously times have changed but I still don't think it is that relevant to a decision of whether to join up or not. I considered (very briefly) joining the RAF, but I can't say that I considered war that much.

I don't the service men and women distasteful- or what they do- but the politicans- well they're a different matter.

And yes I am against this war- but because whilst I'm sure removing Saddam is a worthy cause I don't think we should be doing it without broad world backing- we could be creating real problems.

Quite true wills, and the Iraqi air force flys Mirage jets, made by the French. None of us are lily white on this one.

Philiipat, Oh , how I wish he was a plumber at the moment. And Yes I think I would have grown away from my more radical ideas regardless of who I married. Seeing what fine people he works with may have finished off the job a little earlier. That is, I had to ditch the caracture of baby eating killer as service man. I realised that these people realy did put their lives at risk for what they believed in (though most would never say that!). Whereas all I did was sit in the university common room and shoot my mouth off! I'd love a chance to discuss all of this with my Father, but sadly he dies a few years ago.

I agree with that btw musica

Jimjams, I don't think I missed the point at all. Yes, of course politicians are the ones starting and continuing the war, I don't dispute that and I'm not saying I blame service personnel for war either. But I clearly don't agree that my "ultimate safety is being guaranteed" by service personnel or by this war. Indeed, I think this war makes the world a more dangerous place.

hmmm.. custardo, not sure that Chirac is doing this as a matter of 'principle'. He did a back track last week and intimated that the French would get involved if Iraq started to use chemical or biological weapons - bit late by then.

But that's not to say I support the war, I don't. I think the whole thing is a mess. I do feel for those who have loved ones in the forces but also I feel just as much for the civilians of Iraq. The sooner its over the better. Watching it last night made me want to cry at the futility of it all.

Oh I agree with you there WWW. Absolutely-that's why we shouldn't be in there. But I do feel for the service personnel. (I think we're agreeing on this)- Did you see the Totnes petrol station sit in btw on TV- why was the spokeswoman dressed as a fly?)

I really am heading way off topic here, but really interested by Jimjam's idea that you fall in love with someone because of who they are and not what they do. Aren't the two interrelated? I know they are for me and my DH but perhaps we are unusual. Surely the job you do feeds in a lot to your values?

I'm having difficulty thinking of other professions I wouldn't want to be married to but lawyers might be on the list, I'm afraid , also I think vicars, possibly prison warders, politicians I would have a problem with although local councillors not, some union leaders, probably even Hollywood actors (sorry Jude, I know you've been waiting for me)... This is not to suggest anyone who marries any of these is wrong, I hasten to add - just has different views to me. Likewise, I'd like to have talked to my Dad about this - a wonderful man who unfortunately worked for ICI - but he died when I was 17.

ha ha ha philippa. Poor lawyers- they get really misrepresented- firstly everyone thinks they earn a lot (which they do as partners- but they give a pound of flesh as assistants- I think dh earns considerably less than all our College contemparies and he's a farily successful lawyer- not a partner though). FWIW dh says he doesn't care what our boys do as long as they don't become lawyers- but I think that's to protect their happiness!

I think so many people fall into jobs (I know I did as did dh) that it doesn't necessarily say much about you. It can do- especially if you're a local councillor or an MP or something, but I don't think it has to.

I think I'd love to ahve married a vicar- they'd be aorund a lot- real part of a community and I'm a non-believer- but definite advantages to a vicar.

My personnal view is that you can be idealistic but that may have to be temepered by reality. For example we're thinking of sending ds2 to the local Steiner shcool- which would be a very idealistic education- I wouldn't necessarily expect him to be able to live a totally idealistic life though. People do their best. Dh is so far removed from the public view of a lawyer- he's the biggest softy I know. If we had family money and he could do something else he would. If I could work he may change. The trouble is I have to be around for ds1 so we need a fairly decent wage to be brought in which law provides. If we came across a lot of money (lottery) dh says he'd like to work for a charity (using his legal skills- one of his specialisms is charity law), but unfortunately rea life gets in the way.

I'm sure it;s the same for sevice personnel (most of them). Their job is a job, not an expression of their views about Iraq.

oh, I think you might have taken me more literally than I meant it - obviously I don't assume all lawyers are money grabbing hardmen or all service men are begging for a fight, preferably with some Iraqis - more that the very values of your profession change your thoughts about the world. Perhaps that is what your dh meant by not wanting your boys to be lawyers?

For example, my dh is freelance and works from home. Practically, there are a lot of positive things in that for us as a family. But, I find he tends to have much more black and white views than me about things, which I think is a lot to do with the fact he doesn't work with colleagues every day in a team. Do you see what I mean, now?

Phillipat, it can, naturally. But I have visions of people sitting down with a 6 page questionnaire of attitues and beliefs for prospective lovers. And poeple thinking, damn He was kind, funny, loving, supportive, great in bed, but he diagrees with us entering the Euro zone, so he will have to go!

Ig Dh had been the immage that some on mumsnet have of a service man, I could never have loved him. The fact is, he isn't. Ask youself if your dh would kill (if he had to) to save you and your children. If yes, does that make him a psychopath? I don't think so, it makes him a human being. It is a nasty, murky world out there and there are very few absolutes.