War - what does it really mean ?

[Tillysmummy]

Im feeling very worried and sad about this today. Is anyone else feeling like this - silly question im sure most people are. I am very nervous about the implications. Its amazing how since having my daughter all these emotions and fears are heightened I guess out of an instinct to protect her.
I'd be very interested in other's opinions and feelings.

oh yes I see, although I think in general the public do see lawyers as money grabbing b* .

I think being a lawyer has definitely changed his values ( much less materialistic- more important things in life), but practicalities get in the way. That's why I think a job often says very little about you. You fall into it, the if you find you hate it you're stuck. Unless you have another income source you can't retrain so you have to make the best of it.

I fell into everything I've ever done. I was fortunate enough to enjoy most of it. It's a shame really becuase if I was free to work then dh may be able to change his life a bit.

I wasn't really worried about the lawyer stuff, I was just trying to say that being in the services doesn't make you bloodthirsty!

ooohh, interesting question, hmb. Honestly don't know the answer. But I do think that if he was facing that question every day he wouldn't be able to be the same person he is now.

I think maybe I need to change my nickname to pollyanna...

Trust me 'Polly' (), if he is a good man, and I have no reason to doubt that he is, he could. I see it every day. Trust me, I used to be a radical!

Also polly- peole in the services arent facing that question every day. Most of the time they're doing their usual work. My Dad spent 26 years in the navy. A lot of that time was spent in a nuclear sub following Russian subs who were trying to follow their subs. No-one was killing each other. My dad didn't kill anyone in 26 years.

One of my Uncle's did (in Guyana)- for which he was praised by the way- but that screwed him up- he was only about 18- thye'd come under attack and he'd retaliated. He said it took him a long time to get over it.

Another Uncle was mentioned in dispatches for staying at arms when under attack (in the Falklands)- but he wasn't a psychopath.

My grandfather was bombed by the Japanese (WW2) He was on HMS Dorsetshire which was sunk in the Pacific. I assume he was trying to kill the peole who were trying to kill him. Most of the ship's company was lost. He was picked up after 24 hours in the water - it think his cigarette tin is in a museum somewhere.

Did it change them? If anything it has made them more aware of death caused by war. One thing it hasn't done is turned them into bloodthirsty psychopaths.

WWW: I did say that people might feel that TB's convictions were rubbish. (I don't feel that way, though).

You'll have to attract Whymummy's attention to find out the Spanish equivalent to Che palle... It's on the tip of my tongue but as non-native speaker I can't quite recall.

My dad was a lawyer; now a judge. Not a perfect human being, but very compassionate person. Just to show they're not all money-grubbing slimeballs.

JOKE:
After a shipwreck just one man is rescued, hanging onto flotsam, dog-paddling amidst large man-eating sharks. When he's pulled into the boat the astonished rescuers ask, "How did you survive in those shark-infested waters?!"

"Oh," says the chap. "I'm a lawyer, you see, and they left me alone out of professional courtesy".

zebra

Have just recollected DH is currently writing a superhero comic. I don't think I have a leg to stand on. So am off to put everything I learned from the flirting thread into use at our nearby raf base... (I know someone's still there because a very low helicopter flew over us at 3am...)

I think a lot of people make general assumptions about people based on the kind of work they do. My dh is a lawyer, too, so my mum (and lots of other people, too) naturally assume we're loaded and he works in a swanky office pushing paper around. In reality, over 90% of the work he does is legal aid work which, believe me, is NOT well paid. It?s also pretty stressful ? he has to deal with a lot of his clients personal difficulties as well as their unrealistic expectations of the legal system. One of the things I really admired about him when I met him is the fact that he went into the legal profession with a genuine desire to acheive justice for those unable to represent themselves, which he often does. Recent legal-aid reforms have made this type of work even less attractive financially, but we still have to put up with digs about "fat-cat lawyers". As for me, I'm a journalist, so obviously a form of pond life somewhere slightly below estate agents.
What I'm trying to say is that I do understand a bit of how hurtful and upsetting it can be when people assume they know what kind of person you or your husband must be just because he does a certain type of job, and I guess that must be magnified a hundred-fold when the job he's chosen to do means that he has to risk his life on a daily basis.
Even though I don't support the reasons for this war, I do wholeheartedly offer my support to all those out there, their families and friends, and fervently hope it will all be over very soon.

Philippat, I am interested by te way this thread has gone. Would you make assumptions about people from their job whatever it was? And might that not be sometimes very misleading?

Don't go for the helicopter pilot tho', you'll spend the rest of your married life packing and unpacking when you get moved around! And that flirting thread has already caused enough problems.

Thank you freda, I'm having a crappy day today, and kind words do help.

Surely everyone makes assumptions about people before they meet them, and yes, it can be hugely misleading.

I'm not really sure what I was originally trying to get at when I asked how you overcame your concerns to marry your dh - just nosey-ness really. I think I might have got a bit carried away with the argument, which is great, I don't need to worry about disappointing Jude Law, now.

But still, really interesting insight into lots of people's lives! I'm a very nosey person about why relationships work and I do think for me, the fact that dh and I have careers with similar values but different day-to-day activities has contributed to our very strong relationship. I'd find it so much harder if dh did something I was fundamentally concerned about (so I think those helicopter pilots are safe...).

Oh, hmb, I'm sorry, didn't realise you were having a bad day - apologies if I've made it worse.

hmb, me too, I didn't want to offend you or make a bad day worse.

It gets hard coping every day and I'm just having a bad one today. It would help if I had family close at hand to support, but I am on my own. I have good friends, but in the end it comes down to me. And 'me ' is having a bit of a wobble today, I think the helicopter crash set me off. Don't worry you haven't upset me, in fact, having a nice academic discussion has helped to take my mind off the blinding fear that my dh might be in danger.

To jump back to the discussion proper. There are any number of jobs that I would not like to do, but I am deeply glad that someone does them. Unless you are a pacifist I assume that you would want someone to defend you if this country was under attack. It may be unlikley, but lots of cities were the potential targets for Soviet bombs, and the political situation could change somewhere in the world that makes it possible for that to happen again. If that were to happen, my dh would do his best to defend us. Because he does his job, it means that your dh doesn't have to think about it. That is OK, dh is a volenteer as everone has said. It just breaks my heart to think that his bravery is put down do being some sort of sub human psychopath. Please understand I am not angry, just fed up. Life is complicated and there are very few black and white issues. And if I can see that, worried and upset as I am, I don't think that it is too much for others to admit the same.

hmb
re Kabyle democracy: the system recognises women's equality with men. It is just convention that the man goes.

croppy,
in that case I apologise for recommending that you go off and read a first year textbook! But if you know what a democracy is, how can you think that Britain is one, when we have such a huge unelected establishment behind the government. When push comes to shove, they can make the government back down, two recent examples being fox hunting and the right to roam. Labour was elected in 1996 with these two manifesto pledges, later ditched after pressure from the establishment, whose word did indeed turn out to be law.
If we're a democracy, why has our opinion not been consulted about whether we want an elected head of state or not since the Civil War? It is because in Britain, there are certain issues that simply aren't open to question. The decision has been made for us by our governing class, and we have to stick with it.

And what happens if 51% of the tribe want to do something and 49% don't? What happens? Do they do 51% of what ever it is. Some compromise has to be made I assume. I am also very wary about the 'we are all equal but some are more equal than others line'. If men and women were truly equal they would all go. Sorry need to be convinced. And before you bore me by stating the obvious, yes I realise that there is isufficient female/ racial minority representation in Westminster.

Hmb, Lots of hugs!

Philippat - I too am fascinated by relationships and have been enjoying reading the discussions. My dh and I share some similarities but there are many areas were we are different and often its the differences that fascinate me and keep on fascinating me. Agreed there are some areas where I would not want us to differ but I enjoy the debates that we have and its part of the reason I'm attracted to him. All relationships are personal though aren't they

hmb
Please don't annoy me by referring to our village as a "tribe", which is insulting. Are English villages full of "tribes people"?

hmb, having 'met' you, I would never consider your dh to be 'some sort of sub human psychopath', and actually never thought that in the first place, just interested in you and how your views changed through a relationship. Hugs from me too, I know I couldn't cope with what you are managing.

So, back to the discussion, if your dh decided to quit the raf tomorrow, are there any jobs you wouldn't want him to do, however necessary (dustbin man, police officer, nude model etc)?

wills, totally agree about the differences - relationships and friendships are boring when you agree completely. I wasn't suggesting your views or opinions should all be the same, more that your values (including those that come through your job) are similar.

philippa- I still find it bizarre that you think values come from your job. Values come from your family- not your job! My views in no way have ever represented those of my employers (when I had one) and vice versa. A job is a job- you wouldn't say that someone working in McDonald's must agree with American capitalism and Imperialism. For example I occasionally teach A level Biology in exam revision classes. My job is to get the students the best possiblle A level grades. In order to do this I teach them that vaccination has been a great achievenment and is the pinnacle of modern health achievements. In fact I believe vacination has damaged my osn, wnd whilst it has a place it is misused, My opinions and my job are out of synch. In my spare time I'm happy to campaign against things like MMR- but I couldn't take that into a revision lesson. On a somewhat more serious note (!) our troops are doing a job, it doesn't mean that they want to kill people!!!! A job is a job is a job is a job! You do it to the best of your ability but it doesn't define who you are.

Frieda I agree with absolutely everything you said.

The fat cat comments from people with a family income considerably higher than ours realy p* me off!!

Obviously not ALL your values come from a job, but surely some of them do? Or some are re-enforced by the people you work with. Most of us, given a good enough lifestyle that we had the choice, wouldn't work for a company whose work we found reprehensible, surely, so really it's a virtuous circle? I know plenty of teenagers who refuse to work at MacDonalds for that very reason. If you are happy, say, getting a job at an abortion clinic, that means you must either be pro-choice or not really care one way or the other.

Obviously there's a difference between views (war in Iraq, vaccination) and values (your country needs defending by an army, formal education is important for children) as well.

No offence intended, put it down to having no sleep last night. Don't offend me by referring to my dh as a ptential war criminal

Re another job for dh, I can't think of much that would offend me, porn barron possibly? I rather mentthat there were jobs that I wouldn't like to do, rat catcher, dustbin person, police officer, But I am very glad that someone does these jobs as we would be lost without them.

And regarding the changes to my values they had moved quite a bit before we got to the serious stage in our relationship.

I didn't think that you thought dh is a psychopath. However, not everyone taking part in this discussion is as well tempered and mannered as you are.

hmb
that's okay. Re war crimes, I don't think anyone (including me) has suggested that individual soldiers are war criminals by engaging in this action, even if the action iself is later judged to be illegal and therefore a crime. Surely the criminals in that case would those responsible for starting it and enforcing laws that say their soldiers must take part.