War - what does it really mean ?

[Tillysmummy]

Im feeling very worried and sad about this today. Is anyone else feeling like this - silly question im sure most people are. I am very nervous about the implications. Its amazing how since having my daughter all these emotions and fears are heightened I guess out of an instinct to protect her.
I'd be very interested in other's opinions and feelings.

It's cos we keep pressing the refresh button to see if the other one has replied!

Actually I don't think even ancient greece had a "true" democracy (from what I understand it everyone in a true democracy has a vote in absolutely everything - for one thing I wouldn't have the time and another I know I am not an expert in every nuance of politics - that's what politicians are paid for). I don't think there's ever going to be a "perfect" society for all sections of that society - perfection just isn't possible.

Sorry, that's deviating from the point of the thread (as was the internet discussion for that matter!) but I thought I'd add my 2p worth!

No my point is that as we live in a democracy we have freedome of speech. That freedom is one of the first things that a dictator takes away. Dh has been in the raf for many years, and covered the cold war. Our freedoms have been fought for by men and women like my husband, his presence means that your dh/p self do not have to make sure that we are free. Once SH is deposed, byt hose like my husband the people will know the sort of freedom that you hold so cheaply.

The persicution of the catholics in the time of Elizabeth 1 and also of the more militant protestans doesn't worry you then? Not aware of N Africa. Was everyone given the vote/equal voice? men and women? Bond and free? An am interested in more information.

Georgena A that was the point I was making, but you have put it more clearly.

hmb
so you think that I should support this war to topple Saddam Hussein and restore freedom of speech to the Iraqi people.

So where shall we invade next year? Saudi Arabia? Tunisia? China?

I think overall Queen Elizabeth was good for Britain, rather than defending her every action. Didn't she reduce the penalty for not being C of E to a shilling a week?

In Kabyle tradition (North Africa) decisions are made locally. Every family is represented in a village, by the head of the family. Traditionally, the man goes, but if the family is headed by a woman, she is the representative and has the same rights as a man. Free/bond doesn't exist in Kabyle! Neither do lords and peasants. Everyone is free and has an equal say. It is very badly seen to have servants.
Much more democratic than ancient Greece, as you say GeorginaA.

I'm off now, goodnight

Yes, in part. But I don't for one minute thank that if we went on to the others that would make you happy. I think that is a rather misleading tack to take.

Ah , traditionaly the man goes. So the women only get a say if there is no man to go. Very democratic.

Tell me, before you go. Lots of people marched to stop the ban on hunting. What do you think we should do about that?

hmb - I am a card-carrying peacenik and disagree with this war, but you are right to point out that in the long run, there will be benefits for the Iraqis and that Blair is not a dictator.

In fact, while I disagree with him, I was quite impressed that he stuck to his guns so well in the face of public opinion. Government should not be about knee-jerk reactions to opinion polls (especially when they are so unreliable - I can't quite believe that 30% odd of the population has suddenly decided that the war is right after all and suspect the numbers are wrong somewhere). For the same reason I was equally impressed with Robin Cook.

If only they didn't keep making such knee-jerk policy changes in other areas (usually when it involves getting "tough" on someone - asylum seekers, "yobs" etc) then I'd be happier.

Anyway I wish the best to all our forces (and their spouses at home) and I hope very much that it's all over soon.

ks - yes, well. The Falklands war (as far as I have learned) should have been forseen and was preventable if they had seen it coming and put a few battleships around them...

But I don't admire TB (and certainly don't admire Thatcher) - it is just very rare to see a politician who clearly (I think) sticks to his convictions. Of course he did cave in on fox-hunting and on asylum seekers, but that's another thing.

It would have been nice to see a bit more in the way of compromises (they did try, but didn't compromise by very much - then blamed the French. I thought that was out of order). But, well, I guess this is all symptomatic of my trying to understand something with which I deeply disagree.

At least they've finally pushed the US into doing something about Israel/Palestine (albeit not much) - since the US were clearly going to invade Iraq anyway perhaps that is the best result a British PM could have got.

Don't know that phrase in Spanish anyway - I'll have to ask someone.

Lucy123. Would it surprise youu to know that I agree with much of what you said? And shouldn't we have had a get together in Lincoln. God, I'm sorry I didn't follow up on that! My only excuse is that things have been madder than usual in this house of late.

One of the things that I like so much about Mumsnet is that people can (usually) disagree without it becoming unpleasent. I just couldn't cope with someone infering that my Dh is a potential war criminal,. The person who said that was making assumptions about someone that she has never met. Something that I am sure she would abhor in others. And the TB is a dictator line struck me as indefensible, and I didn't vote for the smarmy so and so!

Don't know if anyone below me (county wise) in SW Scotland knows who Tommy Sheridan is but, he is saying what GW and King tony have done is illegal.

hmb - no worries. I'll be back in lincoln for a month or so in summer anyway, that trip was just on a whim really. I need to escape the heat here!

Your comments have made me think though. When you get into these war arguments it's very easy to think only in terms of civilian casualties and forget that the troops are people too (with quite a nasty job to do). In fact this has been a very interesting discussion - it's very nice to know that not everyone who agrees with the war is a rabid war-monger (as i think i had previously assumed).

Tigger2 - don't know who tommy Sheridan is, but I find the concept of a legal or illegal war very strange. Who will prosecute the perpetrators?

Lucy123, I have been married 'into' the RAF for 15 years. I came from a signed up, left wing, CND family with no experience of service life. I am being 100% honest when I say that I have never heared a single one of my dh's collegues say they wanted to go to war, or to kill someone. They are the last people to want a war, they are the ones who stand in the front line. They may disagree with every view that you have (and probably would) but stand prepared to die to protect your right to voice those views. To see them as blood thirsty killers is a stupid caracture. They may have different views on how to best protect our society, but they are not mindless killers. I have heared many of them have doubts about this war. The last Gulf war was more cut and dried. For what it is worth I truly wish that this could have been sorted without recourse to war, after all I have the most personal reasons for it not to happen, But SH has lied, and lied and would lie forever. I am sure they will find WMD, and I am equally sure that the poor people of Iraq will be better without him.

hear hear hmb. I am against this particular war- mainly because I think it's shocking that the US invades without UN backing, but still (bit like I think it's shocking the US ignores eveyr attempt to curtail greenhouse gas emmisions- they just do what they like). However having come from a family where absolutely everyone of my parent's generation was in the services what you say is absolutely correct.

I remember in the last Gulf War having family involved and I just wanted them home safely again. TBH I couldn't even digest the politics of the situation- my family's safety was too much on my mind.

Of course the troops aren't bloodthirsty killers - that's a totally ludicrous suggestion- see my earlier post about the Falklands. I think the majority of troops on all sides would prefer to be doing anything rather than being at war. Unfortunately they're the poor buggers caught up in it. It's all quite easy to sit at home in our armchairs and theorise, but pro or anti war we should remember that there are people out there risking their lives and they deserve respect. They should not be confused with Tony's politics.

I have been very ambivalent and ostrich-like about this whole thing (don't like it but can't change anything) but a) there was never going to be any way of getting Saddam out without force (not that force guarantees he'll go either) and b) he takes sod-all notice of the UN and international opinion so why should his opponents?

Just hope that casualties are minimal and that it's all over very soon. Best wishes to all with fasmily involved.

Thank you for the kind words of support. I can use all the help I can get at the moment. My thoughts are with those on both sides of the fight. Lets get it over with as soon as possible

hmb - I am re-entering this discussion with caution because I do not want to be guilty of upsetting you or anyone else again. But I have a genuine (not point-scoring or debating) question. You talk about your left-wing CND background and I just wondered about your husband's motivation for being in the forces. Is it about fighting to protect the free, or is it a good career for a pilot (you're probably laughing at me now) or is there some other motivation. Feel free to ignore my questions if you have too many other things on your mind.

Thanks, Lucy123 & HMB for your terrific comments. I agree with both of you, too. I just know that I'm not "anti-war" -- which feels the same as "war supporter" to me. Very weird because I come from a super-left wing peacenik family. Most everyone I know (especially American family) is against the war; there was loud anti-war chanting schoolkids in the park yesterday. I sympathise with those teens; I'm glad they're saying what they did. I just don't agree with them.

It makes me angry to read Tony Blair being called a poodle and this country a dictatorship. If he was a dictator he couldn't be voted out. TB will probably be chucked out next election for supporting this war; he's gambling his whole political career. That's a man acting on his convictions; you may think his convictions are rubbish, but at least he has & believes in them. There are degrees of democracy, but to suggest the UK isn't the democracy side of the dictatorship-democracy line is stupid.

GW Bush, on the other hand... I think is a poodle of the Republican Party, the US military & CIA, all of which had/have a personal vendetta against Saddo which they are now prosecuting. I expect the US economy to go thoroughly belly up & GWB out on his ear next election, too, just like his daddy was after the US economy nose-dived after '91 Gulf War. Wars do horrors to economies. All the big US corporations will do badly, which means less globalisation/globalised commercial interests (a good thing).

What does palle mean in Italian? Happen, will be? "Que sera', sera'" -- whatever will be will be ...?

Bozza, my dh could walk into a job that pays him twice the amount of money flying for the airlines tomorrow. True he loves to fly, and the RAF did train him. However he is a decent , honerable, loving, kind, funny man. Please don't see him as some sort of loser, who joined the forces because he couldn't do any thing else. He is highly intellegent, and exceptionally well qualified.

If we were invaded would you fight? Well, if the answer is yes, the good news is that you would no be asked to, because my husband, and those like him, put their lives at risk every day they go to work, to make sure that neither you, nor your dh have to. In the first 5 years we were married there were 5 deaths on the base we lived on. And that was without a war.

And Bozza, please don't worry about re-entering the debate. If I was hurt I would just stay away. I was deeply angry at comments made that my Dh could be a war criminal, and lets face it who wouldn't be. I enjoy a good, well thought out debate, that is why I like Mumsnet. I just found comments that we were living in a dictatorship hard to take without comment. Similarly comments that democracy=good dictatorship=bad does not hold true. I would never say that that our form of government is perfect, none are, however dictatorships seldom become anything other than bad. And quoting Elizabeth 1 doesn't stand up, to my mind, against, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mussolini, Franco, Mugabbe, and Hitler, and Saddam Hussein (There I have said it, and now Godwin's law means that I have forfeited the debate ) It is wonderful that we have the freedom to debate this. It would be as well if we all realised that dictatorships don't allow the same freedom. And that when it comes down to it, it is people like my husband who defend those freedoms.

I haven't read all this thread but hmb, I don't think I can go with being grateful to your husband, on the basis that "those like him, put their lives at risk every day they go to work, to make sure that neither you, nor your dh have to." As many others have said here, he is not doing this in my name or with my approval. So whilst I am sympathetic and realise if must be worrying for you all I don't think I should be expected to feel grateful to him. Zebra, just because TB is acting with 'the courage of his convictions' it doesn't necessarily make his convictions right does it? That's like saying "oh well, at least he was honest when he told me he thought I was fat" - being honest/having the courage of your convictions don't always mean you are doing the right thing. No time now, may come back later.

I don't think I asked for gratitude did I? And I was making the rather more general point that our armed forces would act to defend you, and your rights if we were attacked. I can have no quarrel with you if you are a total pacifist. If you are prepared to die rather than fight, then that is your right. Otherwise we have our armed forces, ultimatly to defend us. Armies raised from conscipts are no longer viable, we need trained personel. For example it takes 3 years to train a pilot, not something that you can now do in the 8 weeks that it took to train them in the second world war.

I realise that you do not want the war in Iraq, frankly neither do I. However your ultimate safety is secured by people like my husband. And they realy do put their lives on the line every day the go into work, even during training.

That is a good example of why I love Mumsnet! Where else could I pick up a bit of slang at 8.15 in the morning in the middle of a debate on war!