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War - what does it really mean ?

271 replies

Tillysmummy · 18/03/2003 09:50

Im feeling very worried and sad about this today. Is anyone else feeling like this - silly question im sure most people are. I am very nervous about the implications. Its amazing how since having my daughter all these emotions and fears are heightened I guess out of an instinct to protect her.
I'd be very interested in other's opinions and feelings.

OP posts:
Tortington · 26/03/2003 09:38

my daughter asked me i the people in iraq were poor. i said yes - but they shouldnt be. " are we there to help them" she asked " erm yes" i replied " but thats not the real reason we are there its becuase of oil and other resources - but we will help people along the way - although you must understand the primary reason we are there is not to help people"
she looked sad
my son ( her twin brother) chipped in " its very childish isnt it mummy"
"yes it is" i said

wanted to share that with you - but didnt want to start a new thread and wasnt sure whether i should post it on "proud" thread or maybe "the things children say" thread. i opted for here

Marina · 26/03/2003 10:23

Hmb, what a relief for you. I was reading the latest reports in the papers this morning and you and Seahorse, and others too, were very much on my mind. Glad to hear keeping in touch is not proving too hard for you.

Philippat · 26/03/2003 12:09

custardo and at once. Any chance of your son going into politics?

Tigger2 · 26/03/2003 20:15

"Puerile", my goodness that is the nicest thing anyone has said to me for a long time!. I do not like tony Blair, and not just because of the war, for many reasons. He and the present establishment will ruin this country, most of the Gold Reserve has been sold off, what else will he sell of? He has sent many businesses up the swanny, put many Family Businesses to the kerb, pushed aside, swallowed up by the big boys. There is at present a mid-term review of the CAP, (Common Agricultural Policy) whihc for a lot of the farmers especially in the Highlands and North of England will mean that they will in theory go out of business, because goverment wants us to become more streamlined! Good god, how on earth can we streamline farming, we are not a big city firm, many of us a family run businesses, mind you we do have the select FEW with the token Discovery and Merc that do present a bad realisation of farming. But hey, that is the way things are, and we have to manage these sorts of things. In years gone by we had a support system for Hill Farmers called Hill Livestock Compensatory Allowance, that was changed to the Less Favoured Area Support System, now this was put in place for Hill Farmers like us to feed, medicine, vaccinate our sheep and cattle for a year. This is now being restructured, in lamens terms we will go from £14,500 per year for 1000 and 60 cows to just over £6,000, a drop of £8,500. At the present and past prices we have been getting for stock, there is no way that we can make up a shortfall like that, only way to do it is claim more bullocks and cows = subsidy = more money, but to do that they need more feeding which is not cheap, most feeding per tonne is over £110 and that is buying it in bulk i.e. over 3 tonnes at a time. Please believe me I am not crying poor mouth, but there will be a lot of redundancies within many of the larger hill farms up in the North of Scotland or in the North of England, because there will be no money to pay the herd or the General Farmworker, in fact in the Highlands it will be very similar to the Highland Clearances.

It is not because I am a Tory voter, it is because I believe in what I and many other folk do, I am not asking to be taken by the hand, just to have a government that has an understanding of ALL aspects of work in the UK, and that goes for any government, the Tories made a bloody bad job with the BSE, and since then we have paid the price.

Lil, my argument "less believable" I really don't like arguing, but, if someone wants one I'll give them one, not meaning you of course hun

Think it was about time Robin Cook went anyway, he was starting to look a bit past his sell by date

seahorse · 26/03/2003 21:22

Marina

Thanks for the thoughts.

Tigger2

What should be done about farming - I'm not really in favour of government funding for essentially commercial enterprises but is this the only way. It seems absolutely tragic. I live in Wiltshire but am a northerner. Down here farming seems to be dominated by the traditional landowners who give a false impression of what a dreadful state farming is in. (personally don't like it at all down here - would love to back up North!). It is very difficult to drum up any support from out of work miners and run down inner cities of high unemplpoyment like sheffield for example. Should governments help all failing industries financially such as the almost non-existant steel industry - I know France seem to manage it but at what expense.

seahorse · 26/03/2003 21:23

Really shouldn't change the theme of this thread to farming - why don't you (tigger) start a new thread - I'd like to be more informed about it and the issues also how mums who are farmers are coping

Tigger2 · 26/03/2003 21:45

Seahorse, the French has the same Subsidy Support System that we have in this country, they also have individual tagging for their ewes and all progeny. This is workable if you only have a small flock of sheep, we on the other hand and many other have over 1000 of them and to try and individually tag all those ewes and their lambs at birth is not workable, let alone, cruel. To sell sheep at present the tags have to contain our herd number, for example UK123456, and then individual numbers on the other side, and purple if the farmer is Farm Assured. We have to tag calves within 7 days of birth, not the easiest when you have a rather snottery Limousin cow breathing down your neck! (my wellies have Nike soles on them!!) The French have a different approach to farming, a far more relaxed way of life, but, their farms are on the whole less intensive than many in Britain, they carry a lot less stock than we do, and in all fairness many farms in the UK are overstocked, we were at one time very overstocked. We started of farming with 140 acres and now have nearly 3000 acres, and 1000 breeding females and 60 cows and nearly 100 followers.

We are lambing at the moment and calving as well, calving heifers as well which is a bit of a telling time, 90% have been ok, but you always get the one or two who are not for this mothering business at all, so Tigger steps in and takes over as mother. I am passionate about my job, beyond compare sometimes, but, it is farmers like my husband and myself and many others within the industry who go unseen. I hate it when DH sells the calves from the cows as I cannot help but cry when I hear the cows roaring for their calves and they look at me as if I should bring them back, and some take the huff believe me! We stopped selling cattle for the Fat Stock Market, I couldn't stand it, physically I could be sick thinking about them going to the slaughterhouse, even if we have to get anything put down I am violently sick, some say I am soft, sad, and have been called bloody pathetic by some lovely people, I am soft, and I come from a farming background, my dad was the same. Sometimes we get ewes that are so keen on their lambs that they pull the navel cord and out comes the guts and gore, now, you can sew them up and sort them, 9 times out of 10 you have to do away with the lamb. Now, the last time this happened, DH was in bed with the most horrendous dose of the sickness and trots!, so it was down to me, oh dear I cried for an hour after the deed was done. A lot of people only see the "bad side of farming" it is not all bad and us ranting and raving about subsidy and the government and the Countryside Alliance!, many of us work away in the background trying to change the publics perception of us and what we produce, and get a fairer deal (price wise) for farmers.

Mums in farming, where do I start, my day starts anywhere from 5.30am and can finish anywhere up to midnight, but, I would not change it for the world and I do have other qualifications as well. Saying that, I'd better go, as I have calves to register with BCMS, we seem top be having a run of heifer calves at the moment, DH not chuffed as he wants bull calves as they are worth more when we sell them, me, I'm just happy that they are alive and well and had a good sook.

If people want to know more about what I do then please ask, and I will answer if I can and if not i'll get DH in and ask him.

Thanks for asking Seahorse

Katherine · 28/03/2003 16:54

Tigger2 - not ignoring you (hope you do start your farming thread) but just wanted to make some comments about the war to get the thread going again.

I find it amazing that everyone seems so shocked that there is resistance. Isn't it a bit arrogant to think we can just stroll right on in there and take over? All this talk about executions is horrible but we all know what the regime is like - he's been executing his own people for years so he's hardly likely to be welcoming. I just get the feeling that the US almost just wanted to play at war and they are shocked by the reality of it. When I read about attrocities that went on in other wars it sickens me but its no surprise that similar horrors are happening now. That is war and that is why war is so awful.

hmb · 28/03/2003 17:04

Katherine. I think that part of the reason there is resistance is that if they do not resist, the republican guards will shoot them. 2000 civilians were shelled by their 'own ' side when they tried to leave Basra. In addition the people in the south have no reason to believe us that we will support them this time if they rebel, we hung them out to dry last time

ks · 28/03/2003 17:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

hmb · 28/03/2003 17:32

I part, yes, but there is also coersion. Was anuy more said of the Kurdish town with the reported massecar? It was mentioned yesterday, and then no more today. The people also fight because they have been fed decades of propaganda about how evil the west is.

Katherine · 28/03/2003 18:20

Oh I'm not SURPISED that there is resistance. I'm sure in reality the nation is split, just like we are split here as to whether we think it is right or not. I just find it amazing that the newsreports always seem to have an element of shock to them as if we were expected to just stroll on through till we got to Bagdhad. I'm always a bit sceptical of the newsreports though. I know it is great that the reporters are allowed in now and that war is far more open than in the past, but so many of the reports seem to be conflicting and so often they are obviously toeing the line of censorship. I find the ones of the oil fields most baffling. One comments on how the whole place is booby-trapped and there are burning wells everywhere. Another comments that there are one 5 wells alight and no sign of any attempt to destroy them. Who do you believe? The pessimist in me just can't help but wonder how much quashing the regime is just a cover for the real issue - oil and wealth!

hmb · 28/03/2003 18:29

Intersting report today from the Russians who have stated that they want a 3 billion dollar oil contract honoured by who ever is governing Iraq at the end of the war. When in a cynical mood I wonder if this is why they didn't want the war to start. the russian provided equipment that the allies found must have been an embarassment to Putin

Rhubarb · 31/03/2003 16:41

Thought I might add that the Americans have now stated that the port of Umm Kasar will be run by an American company. Which means that the Iraqi's will have to pay a charge to this American company to use their own oil. Still convinced that this war is nothing to do with oil?

doormat · 31/03/2003 17:27

Rhubarb, I heard about the american company the other day aswell controlling Uum Kasar.What a turn up for the books? I found the fact of the chemical suits in the hospital with the boxes and instructions in english a huge contradiction. Who supplied these items? I find this war repulsive on all sides.I do not believe none of them.

bells2 · 31/03/2003 17:33

Maybe I have got it wrong but I thought the contract to run the port related solely to facilitating humanitarian supplies into the country. I wouldn't have thought Iraq would be exporting much or any oil at the moment.

Rhubarb · 01/04/2003 15:34

No, not at the moment Bells2, but the US have it as a priority to get the ports up and running as fast as they can - all for humanitarian aid? The US have said that only US companies will be able to bid for control over Iraqi oil ports. So once the ports are back in business, that's more money for the American oil companies, and more more and support for the biggest oil tycoon of them all - George W Bush. (Now I wonder that the W can stand for?)

bossykate · 08/04/2003 14:28

just seen this in "the onion".

winnie1 · 08/04/2003 14:40

Bossykate

Rhubarb · 08/04/2003 15:19

How true!

hmb · 09/04/2003 17:41

Today it would seem that the answer to the question posed in this thread is tragedy and death for 1000 Iraqi civilians (by their government's estimate). The butchers bill for the freedom of the rest of the country, along with the allied deaths.

I hope that the Iraqis get their elected government as soon as possible.

Seahorse, I hope that your dh is safe, and comes home soon. Lets hope thay stay home with us for a while.

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