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War - what does it really mean ?

271 replies

Tillysmummy · 18/03/2003 09:50

Im feeling very worried and sad about this today. Is anyone else feeling like this - silly question im sure most people are. I am very nervous about the implications. Its amazing how since having my daughter all these emotions and fears are heightened I guess out of an instinct to protect her.
I'd be very interested in other's opinions and feelings.

OP posts:
zebra · 23/03/2003 20:35

Funny how TBlair is becoming nearly as unpopular as Mrs. Thatcher... only she at least had her devoted fans, too. It's uncool to like Tony Blair, alas.

Philippat · 23/03/2003 21:55

hmb, you've definitely made me think about it all more roundly, thank you for sharing all your thoughts. Since I heard about that plane, I've been worrying about you - I think I finally get close to understanding what it must be like for service wives. Must try not to be so judgemental in future! Fingers crossed for the future for you.

hmb · 24/03/2003 06:43

Thank you Phillipat, amd veryone else for your kind words of support. They have helped a lot. I knew that it wasn't dh, but then spent the rest of the morning worrying about the rest of our friends until I found out the a/c type. Poor families, I'm so sorry for them.

Just as an aside, I have found this discussion very helpful. The thing I like about mumsnet is that the discussions are usualy done in such a well mannered, and considered way. There are the odd exceptions (GF!), but most of the time people realise that these are debates, and not arguments, and stay away from the personal comments. It has been a pleasure to debate with you.

ks · 24/03/2003 07:53

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Croppy · 24/03/2003 07:55

Perhaps I'm missing something Sml2 but I don't recall having said that the UK is a democracy simply that it isn't a dicatorship

hmb · 24/03/2003 08:12

ks, thank you for your kind comments. I do see your point that many people may feel as you do, and that might explain the fall in numbers at the march. But it doesn't realy explain the polling data where a majority of those asked stated they were in 'favour' of the war. I realise that polling data can be skewed, and that people change their minds quickly. the recent news may well cause them to change their minds again. But to my mind this is a good reason why the government cannot change policy based on polls, that JJ discussed so clearly. It is not that I think the government 'knows best', because I don't. However government with an eye to polling data would be chaotic.

JJ · 24/03/2003 10:19

Croppy, this is something I've never quite figured out about the UK. To an outsider it really seems to function like a democracy the Queen doesn't have any active input into govt policy and I rarely hear about the House of Lords. So, although, it is constitutional monarchy, it seems closer to a democracy. Even the arguments for a republic that I've heard have focussed on the financial side of supporting a monarchy. Obviously, I have very very little knowledge of how it all works. And it's hard to find a basic explanation on the web (eg, here's what the House of Commons is and does, here's what the House of Lords is and does...). This seriously isn't meant as a wind up and it's unrelated to the war.. just something my husband and I talk about from time to time. We're in Switzerland now more of a direct democracy with referendums held constantly. It's interesting, although somewhat difficult to figure out, especially as my German isn't good enough to know all the issues.

My feeling now about the war is that it's all started so let's begin preparing for the outcome. Iraq, no matter what, will need help and support after the war. Especially, I think, if the worst happens and Saddam is not removed. There are strong arguments that the 12 years of sanctions have hurt the Iraqi people incredibly. The idea that sanctions would still be kept in place if we are unsuccessful in that one aim is horrific to me. I'm not sure where the UN, US and UK stand on this; it's just been something I've been thinking about.

My cynical view is that President Bush has no intention of following through in rebuilding Iraq. In his proposed 2004 budget, he didn't even ask for any humanitarian or relief funds for Afghanistan (although he did ask for money for them elsewhere, no explicit humanitarian and relief aid was requested). Luckily Congress included it in the final budget.

Croppy · 24/03/2003 10:26

Hi JJ. I personally am very confident in describing the UK as a "deomocracy" but I have learnt not to make such claims on Mumsnet as it leads to endlessly time consuming and ultimately pointless debates!!

CAM · 24/03/2003 10:38

We're a 2-party state that has too much power invested in the government, or in recent times, in one person (ie. PM)

Lil · 24/03/2003 13:39

Tigger/Sml isn't it odd how when you don't agree with the prime minister you call him a dictator - despite the fact that the majority of parliament voted to agree with him, and despite the fact the country voted him in. Its just puerile name calling and makes your arguments less believable!

musica · 24/03/2003 13:46

Of course, Saddam Hussein was voted into power too recently - surprisingly enough he received 100% of the votes! Not even 99%, the whole 100%. He must be very popular!

Gracie · 24/03/2003 13:50

Not to mention that if he hadn't won the vote, he would have been subject to a vote of no confidence which would probably have seen him replaced as leader and in all likelihood would have led to a general election.

Gracie · 24/03/2003 13:51

Yes it's an incredible coincidence isn't it how dictator's around the world manage to secure 100% of the votes. Tigger2, how come Robin Cook managed to resign but Clare Short didn't it if the latter was prevented by Blair being a dictator?

musica · 24/03/2003 13:52

Btw, that wasn't meant to be any comment on our parlimentary system, just on differences between Iraq as a dictatorship and UK as democracy.

musica · 24/03/2003 13:53

I actually respect CS's decision - she said that it would have been easier to go, and she's right - she would have gained more credence from the gerneral public, but she said that she, in TBs position, would do the same thing, and therefore it would be hypocritical to go.

hmb · 24/03/2003 14:05

Musica,

And don't forget some of the Iraqis thought so much of SH, they voted for him twice on the same ballot paper. What amuses/horrifys me is that dictators are so wrapped up in their make believe world, they actually think that other counties will be impressed with this sort of bull

musica · 24/03/2003 15:27

hmb - I know, they seem to think other countries will say "Oh, he must be really popular - what a victory!"

ks · 24/03/2003 17:21

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janh · 24/03/2003 20:21

Please have a look at this website:

www.dear_raed.blogspot.com/

it belongs to a guy calling himself Salam Pax (or Peace Peace), an Iraqi living in Baghdad, he has been writing daily bulletins for months about what is going on there, it is brilliant.

His internet access was knocked out over the weekend but he is back now and still doing OK. You can email him too. It is a very rewarding read. (Set some time aside!)

hmb · 24/03/2003 20:27

I saw some stuff about this in todays Guardian 2

janh · 24/03/2003 20:38

hmb, that's where I got it from, I meant to say!

He has links to other peoples' websites too - and they have links to still others - I gather they are all anti-war from the few I've looked at, but this is why you need to give it some time.

One I looked at, a woman in Israel, was talking about recent newspaper coverage of Iraqis being killed - by their own Govt., including Saddam's son - in industrial shredding machines. Among other charming ways. They are bad people - as she said, how can you call Bush and Blair monsters when you are dealing with people like that?

Bozza · 25/03/2003 13:07

HMB - thanks for responding to my query way down this thread - which led to the discussions about careers and how they define you. Sorry I've not had access to a computer until today. Although I didn't upset you I certainly upset Gosh2 which is what made me wary.

Tillysmummy · 25/03/2003 15:15

hmb, Seahore, and any others with loved ones out there. How are you all doing ? I hope you are okay. My thoughts are constantly with you...

OP posts:
hmb · 25/03/2003 16:00

Had an e-mail this morning. We are lucky and have much better communication links than most. One advantage of being in the RAF is that they don't tend to be 'in the field'. We are coping OK. MIL and others are to visit which will be fun, and the kids will love it. It is Ds's third birthday on Friday which will be a happy/sad day. But thank you all for your kind words. I have been astonished by the kindness and goodwill I have experienced on Mumsnet.

janh · 25/03/2003 22:04

hmb, hope it all continues to go well for you and that you get your DH home safely soon (seahorse too, and anybody else on here.)

Looks like it will get worse before it gets better though.