The society we live in today - what is wrong with some people and how can it be fixed?

[DrNortherner]

Watching the news, all you see is stories of yobs being violent, socially disruptive, on the dole and genrally not giving a toss about themselves or anyone else. They have no desire to get off their arses and get a job and a better life and future.

Do we make it too easy for these kind of people? We give them money to spend, we let them off if they commit a crime and hell, we even house them if they become parents and pay some of their monthly bills.

I grew up on a council estate in Teesside, lived there till I was 17. My parents still live in the same house. My Gran and 2 aunties live on council estates too, and I visit regularly so I know what I am talking about. Don't shout me down in flames, I am not critiscising everyone, I am well aware there are many good people with morals who live on council estates, and I am the first to defend when a bit of council estate bashing takes place.

But I have seen a huge change.When I was a kid, most of the residents were elderly or young families, but mainly people had jobs - they just didn't earn alot. People took care of their properties and the gardens were immaculate.

Now it is a different story. It is full of youngsters with kids, with no jobs, with no hope and with no desire to improve their lot. I so worry about my mum and dad. They live next door to a young girl with 3 kids. The Dad is 19 and on drugs. They have lots of visitors throughout the night, and last year 4 men turned up and smashed all their windows and kicked their door in.

This is just one example. The local shops are nearly all closed down, lots of houses boarded up, kids parks in disrepair (because of local vandals) and kids as young as 2 wander the streets for most of the day 'playing' outside.

The local secondary school is crap and in special measures.

Can you imagine living there as a teen?

What can we possibly do to get out of this rut?

I blame the breakdown of traditional family life.

Also, the high cost of living in this country puts many people off, on the basis, that if they don't earn a huge wage then it's not worth working at all.

DrN at your description but even sadder, not surprised.

I feel that part of it is because lots of people have no sense of shame.

Had I misbehaved my family would have been shamed by my behaviour, and I would have felt ashamed of myself.

I teach children who sometimes have dreadful patterns of behaviour (NT). their parents are not ashamed of this behavior, they make endless excuses, place the blame anywhere but on their child and on themselves.

An interesting opening post from DrN.

I feel very strongly that we are becoming a two tier nation - the Haves and Have Nots. I am not talking about material things I am talking about having access to decent education, health care etc.

I think there is a general lack of respect for other people and their property. You learn to respect people by example and also you need to respect yourself.

Too many young people have been "written" off by failing schools etc. There is also a lack of discipline in schools because we have become such a litigous society. If you were gobby to a teacher you got in trouble - detention, clip around ear or whatever. But you were punished for your misdeed.

But also the lack of respect will lead to a feeling of no hope and if you've got nothing then you have nothing to loose by being anti-social etc.

We, as a society, need to give people but especially disadvantaged males 15-24 some hope and from that will come respect.

poeple seem to only care about themsleves and the 'here and now'
In a way its like we've become a society of children who are selfish and have tantrums. You see 40 yo men speeding, chucking litter and reeling drunkenly like yobs. Why aren't they asmahed of themselves? What sort of example do they set their children?

I think that some of the problem is the immigration laws that we have, which are too lax to stop the abuse of the system (N.B. I'm for immigration per se, just not the abuse of it by so many). The UK is filling up and we have no infrestructure to cope with it, so money that should be spent on trying to maintain public properties, run prisons, provide healthcare is being used to sustain the surge in population that is happening.

Other issues come in to play, of course, such as the geographical mobility of us all today resulting in the breakdown of family and local communities.

I also feel that another factor is the growth of consumerism and the belief that everything is disposible . replaceable now makes people less proud of their possessions.

What do we do about it? I daren't say for fear of coming over as so right wing I'd make Hitler look like a cuddly bunny, but I do feel that there needs to be a stronger deterrant for crime. Should we bring back hanging? Maybe not but certainly the return of the stocks wouldn't be such a bad thing IMO.

Pennies - I agree with needing stronger deterrents. It just seems that many people seem to get away with - quite literally - murder.

Fio, my family is working class. While we were not well off (by any scare) we didn't have poverly of expectation.

the children that I see in school who are running out of control are ofeten quite afluent (in comparison to my childhood) but they suffer dreadfully from 'poverty of the spirit'. No aspiration, no self respect, no feeling that they are part of a greater community.

you're right about poverty of the spirit. I wonder what caused it?

Well you can't usually get a council house these days unless you are desperate so the old working class enclave doesn't apply in the way it did- my aprents got theirs with dad working and me due, now many famillies spend time in one room hostels for ages before being allocated a palce, so the level of hardship is always going to be higher. The estate where my dad was raised was specifically allocated for problem famillies (his was hugely so), and guess what? It became a ghetto. What a surprise!

There are things we can do- firstly to recognise that there are loads of good kids and that we should emphasise them as much as the yobs otherwise we may get to the point where they wonder why they bother at all! MOST kids don't end up in prison or gangs- I didn't, and I was raised on an estate considered deprived. You see all these sill debates atm screaming bring back national service- what must the good kids think? Ah yes punish me for the acts of my peers?

Then look at what already works. home strt for example- its fab but we (I used to be an amployee) always had to pull out at 5 years old, even if the problems were ongoing. Whyca n't the Government extend either funding (its a charity) or provide something like that?

there's also a constant outcry for benefits to be stpped for that age group- well actually unemployment benefits aren't available tos chool leavers as such, so the awarding of these isn't a primaryc ause as some people seem to believe.

There's also a thing i've noticed lately where the teenage boys get labelled yobs etc and the girls get away with terrible behaviour- again unfair, society has to include all kids irrelevant of gender. boys are equally able to be good kids.

We also need to proper definition of yob. If ti means criminal, then use that phrase: so often kids are labelled as yobs because they wear a certain style of jumper and hang out in certain aplces, but where else do they go? can we give them somewhere else to go perhaps?

Drugs and alcohol are a big influence and I'm not very knowledgeable on that so can't eally suggest.

Oh and I do support ahrsher sentencing, I thnk it needs to be done. Totally anti-hanging and corporal punishment, but I do think there needs to be a deterrant.

That depends on where you live perhaps Fio? Certainly in Somerset you didnt need to be unemployed to get a council house, just low income. Although we didnt live in the population saturated areas of the country so eprhaps that was a factor (the factories back home helped finance the estates- it was when the factories went that the town colapsed, much like the mining areas here)

I blame TV, soaps and reality shows in particular.
Throw them out they are the work of the devil.

I do have a TV.

Oooh. Is this the right point to blame Mrs Thatcher. Please...

Seriously I do think a change started when we started thinking of ourselves as consumers rather than members of a community. Taking responsibility for yourself is very important but not at the expense of caring about other people and the society you live in.

Having said all that I don't think that society is quite as awful as the media potrays it. There are problems of course, no denying it. But I live in what is essentially a poor light industrial town with terrible deprived areas and an unenviable reputation for all kinds of thuggery. And I have never known so many friendly people, we've suffered no serious crime and people do look out for each other. I also feel quite confident to run alone at night for 3 or 4 miles. I think that sometimes we can imagine things worse than they are.

Peachy - I am so with you on the "yob" thing.

I have been going to meetings with the local community police people. We live in leafy suburbia in an affluent part of London. I was shocked by the attitude of the public at the meeting which was if you are wearing a hoody then you must be a criminal!

Also, there is nowhere for the young to go in the evenings and weekends. No youth clubs etc and if they hang around in the park or whatever the police move them on...to the next area and on and on it goes.

FioFIo - I'm also against the death sentence but I think his case for hypoxia induced death was pretty strong.

As far as I know no-one ever died in the stocks though.

I watched that programme Fio. I always knew I was against- purely because of humantarian issues (risk of innocence (have your ead the Innocent man by John Graisham?) and the fact that i beleive capital punishment punishes the family of the perpetrator as much as the perpetrator), but that programme confirmed my beleifs

I grew up on a council estate and my mum was a single mum, on and off benefits as she worked on and off. And benefits were way stricter then. The Thatcher years! (not necassarily a good thing)
We did get up to some naughtiness but if an adult caught you at it they went and told your mum and then you got a thick ear. The estate was pretty spotless despite the poverty.
If you tell someones mum today you'll then get the mum giving foulmouth abuse etc.

Ah yes ..the yob thing. I hate that too. Boys wearing hoodies and on skateboards are not yobs...and some of them even say hello if you know their names.

Ormirian, I felt safer at home than I do here- affluent village considered posh- at night. Totally agree about the community thing.