The society we live in today - what is wrong with some people and how can it be fixed?

[DrNortherner]

Watching the news, all you see is stories of yobs being violent, socially disruptive, on the dole and genrally not giving a toss about themselves or anyone else. They have no desire to get off their arses and get a job and a better life and future.

Do we make it too easy for these kind of people? We give them money to spend, we let them off if they commit a crime and hell, we even house them if they become parents and pay some of their monthly bills.

I grew up on a council estate in Teesside, lived there till I was 17. My parents still live in the same house. My Gran and 2 aunties live on council estates too, and I visit regularly so I know what I am talking about. Don't shout me down in flames, I am not critiscising everyone, I am well aware there are many good people with morals who live on council estates, and I am the first to defend when a bit of council estate bashing takes place.

But I have seen a huge change.When I was a kid, most of the residents were elderly or young families, but mainly people had jobs - they just didn't earn alot. People took care of their properties and the gardens were immaculate.

Now it is a different story. It is full of youngsters with kids, with no jobs, with no hope and with no desire to improve their lot. I so worry about my mum and dad. They live next door to a young girl with 3 kids. The Dad is 19 and on drugs. They have lots of visitors throughout the night, and last year 4 men turned up and smashed all their windows and kicked their door in.

This is just one example. The local shops are nearly all closed down, lots of houses boarded up, kids parks in disrepair (because of local vandals) and kids as young as 2 wander the streets for most of the day 'playing' outside.

The local secondary school is crap and in special measures.

Can you imagine living there as a teen?

What can we possibly do to get out of this rut?

Well so far as the drugs/alcohol are concerned there's no short cut is there - rehab programmes are vastly expensive and time-consuming, but as far as I know there's no alternative (apart from the Beadle, as Orm says, or taking people's children off them and chucking them into care to be roundly abused there instead, assuming that they're not cute ickle babies that right-thinking middle-class types will want to adopt).

Loss of people being brought up with any sense of personal or social responsiblity, in a nutshell.

Rehab only works if you're ready for it and your prepared to change your life when you come out.

80% of people 'fail', and that's the centre with the best success rate. People sometimes have to do it many times to make a permanent change.

People dont get richer because they dont get the chances other children get, not at school, but at home.

If an incredibly clever child goes to school and the teachers try to help them flourish but this is accompanied by parents who never encourage homework, take no notice of parents evenings etc, give the child a poor diet, lack of sleep and make fun of education then that child is never going to excel, no matter what the teachers do.

Whereas a child who isn't particularly bright, with parents who encourage and know the difference a good diet and a good nights sleep etc make will probably never be the birghtest kid on the block but they have much more of a chance.

And the only place I think money comes into it is that the parents of the second child are more likely to be the ones with more money because they valued education, whereas the first childs family, don't, and therefore are less likely to succeed themselves.

Of course then there are the parents who work their bollocks off to bring home a measly amount of money and still encourage their children as much (if not more) than the second case (in desperation for their children to not have to scrimp and save the way they do) and then have to fight against the bad influences of the first childs type because they can't afford any better than having to live with those kind of people, are unable to watch their child because they have to work or are unable to keep their children occupied with expensive computers and clubs etc

It's the last group I feel worst for, and that's what gets me so angry about the children in the first case being given extra help because of the benefits (free clubs etc) but because the 3rd childs parents are working they dont get that same help.

I see your point, Laurie, but is there an alternative?

No, it all comes back to why you are addicted to it (mostly social deprivation, parental deprivation)

And whoever the addict is they have to reach a point personally where they want to live, want to stop, want to change, and want to grow. Noone can be made to give up.

I have one client (rich, upper middle class family) has been in rehab 6 times - family keep paying, keep rescuing him). At no point has he ever been made to take personal responsibility for anything so he has never reached the lowest point for him

The above example is what I mean by parental deprivation rather than social deprivation.

Hmm. Again, I see your point (and I'm sure that what you say is true) - but when the addict is a parent with young children, and we have to allow the addict to reach rock bottom, then their children would have to be taken into care, no? So, I suppose the question (in this case) is: which is worse - life with an addict parent or life in care? Both pretty shite options, and neither of them likely to produce adults who can live fulfilling lives (although some will doubtless manage it through sheer force of will).

totally agree with you policy, its a tough call and a hard one to balance.

If only every child was wanted, nurtured and loved.

For my own self I wish someone had even noticed how bad it was for me as a child, would happily have been taken into care, dreamed of running away (or going to Malory Towers)

If only care where the answer, I was finally removed from my family home when I was 15, only to be put into foster care which was just as bad!

*were

how awful for you VS.

It's fiiiiiiiine, I was in Malory Towers too, in my head

I do think a lot of these "reasons" discussed on this thread are excuses.

This all started the generation below mine.. My parents were born in the 30s and I was born in 1963. When I went to school things were still done the "old" way. If I complained at home about a teacher then I must have done something to upset them/ deserve it. Had I been seen doing something I shouldn't then someone would have told my mum PDQ.

Once I was in the 6th form the new intake of 12 year olds had absolutely no respect for us. They were cocky and knew it all. Their parents were the teenagers of the late 50s and 60s who first started the idea of everyone being able to do what they wanted, and no respect for authority. The kid that lived over the back from us- aged 5- used to throw stuff at us. Complained to his mother and got a mouthful from her.

My father had to leave school at 15, although he could have gone on. He didn't have as many choices as today's kids- and neither did we come to that.

His grandmother lost her husband in 1918 as a result of war injuries. She was pregnant with her fifth son at the time. She brought those boys up on her own in a 2 up-2 down house with no help from the government. Not one of them became a delinquent despite a hard life. I don't suppose there was "anything to do" for those boys, and no playstations or TV.

The biggest problem in society is that everyone has rights but nobody has any responsibilities. "I'll do what I like in my house"- play my radio full blast; have parties when I want- sod the neighbours. "I don't want to queue". I want I want.

There is no excuse at all for able bodied adults not to go to work but you hear it all the time "why should I work when I wouldn't be any better off". Why is not going to work a lifestyle choice?

I do have a problem with the concept of 'rights' sometimes I must admit. It is a 2-way street.

ormirian is rigvht, rights come with responsibilities for all but the most vulnerable in our society.

how would I improve parenting?

Well what worked for us at homestart was the mentoring model- actually getting someone in there to give feedback, praise and advice that was tailored to the family not generic and possibly unachievable.

That's not pie in the sky- for us it worked, it kept kids out of care, it made a massive difference. Support the parent and everyone benefits was the motto.

And then our funding stopped.

That's dreadful Peachy.

It's shameful the way the public and voluntary sector is funded nowadays. Money available for start-ups. Money available for special, easily definable projects. Money available for winding up.

Very little or NO money available to sustain much-needed, non-flashy, coal-face projects over prolonged and realistic periods of time.

And if you work for such a project, more than half of yr manpower hours are spent filling out 30-page grant applications, scrabbling around for disparate bits of funding, undergoing assessments and preparing for inspections rather than doing the actual work. No continuity, no ability to budget and plan. Grrrr!

It's not just insistence on rights, it's lack of personal responsibility for things - no sense that if things go wrong YOU should work to put them right, just an immediate blame of someone/something else

Tallulah - I couldn't agree with you more. I'm a couple of years older than you and would agree about the changes in kids' attitudes.I had the misfortune to be in the 'guinea-pig' year for the introduction of the comprehensive system. Our school seemed to think discipline was 'old-hat' and that you shouldn't celebrate academic achievement. The only people who got public praise were the sporty ones.They didn't expel the persistent thugs just let them get on with intimidating the rest of us. The rot set in then.

OOh what a response to my post. Am off to read it all now!

From an educational p.o.v.- I am a law tutor currently teaching 18-22 yos and have noticed a certain mixture of passivity and rampant individualism which seems to be new (at least, it is not how I remember things being among my compatriots at school).

Fantasies of wealth abound, but almost all the students expect not to have to work for said wealth.

I was particularly stunned when one of my (better) students actually complained to me 'how are we supposed to read x' (textbook) with a great sense of righteous grievance. I replied that it was because it contained the law, which was the course he was on...

Almost all those who do actually work are not wealth-obsessed and want job satisfaction etc.

I do blame Thatcher but also our overwhelmingly results-based exam system and American cultural influences.

Society is so materialistic, "I have to have a new mobile, I need that, I need this." They have no sense of what they really need. I live in Asia, where some people have NOTHING. Lots of families can't send their kids to school or get medical treatment because they can't afford to.

You see values here, you don't see them in England or in any of the developed countries. Family is so important here. Even the poorest families get by and help each other.

I think some people (even families with kids with sn) in developed countries need to realize that many people are worse off than they are. In England, you can have DLA, special schools, respite, supplies for your children. In most Asian countries, these things don't exist. If they think people are rude in England, they should go to Laos or Cambodia. Then they can really complain. Same for the sick, France has one of the best health care systems, so does Norway, Denmark, Germany...... Try to appreciate your doctor some time. Not everyone has access to a doctor.

Another thing, the people in the toughest situations here are the strongest. They have no counselor to turn to if they need help, they have to rely on themselves to overcome the difficult parts of life.

People in general are nicer in these countries. They know what hard really is. None of you in Europe (unless you're a refugee or are from one of these places) have any idea what difficult means. Your problems are so trivial compared to what some people have to face. Few people take the time to think and show compassion though.

Appreciate what you have.

sabaidii - I know where you are coming from, but be careful .

Things are not always quite as easy in Europe as you think. And not everyone has a high standard of living - or, even if they do, not everyone is materialistic to the point of feeling entitled to all the latest gadgets and toys.

Your english has improved no end Sabaidii.