The society we live in today - what is wrong with some people and how can it be fixed?

[DrNortherner]

Watching the news, all you see is stories of yobs being violent, socially disruptive, on the dole and genrally not giving a toss about themselves or anyone else. They have no desire to get off their arses and get a job and a better life and future.

Do we make it too easy for these kind of people? We give them money to spend, we let them off if they commit a crime and hell, we even house them if they become parents and pay some of their monthly bills.

I grew up on a council estate in Teesside, lived there till I was 17. My parents still live in the same house. My Gran and 2 aunties live on council estates too, and I visit regularly so I know what I am talking about. Don't shout me down in flames, I am not critiscising everyone, I am well aware there are many good people with morals who live on council estates, and I am the first to defend when a bit of council estate bashing takes place.

But I have seen a huge change.When I was a kid, most of the residents were elderly or young families, but mainly people had jobs - they just didn't earn alot. People took care of their properties and the gardens were immaculate.

Now it is a different story. It is full of youngsters with kids, with no jobs, with no hope and with no desire to improve their lot. I so worry about my mum and dad. They live next door to a young girl with 3 kids. The Dad is 19 and on drugs. They have lots of visitors throughout the night, and last year 4 men turned up and smashed all their windows and kicked their door in.

This is just one example. The local shops are nearly all closed down, lots of houses boarded up, kids parks in disrepair (because of local vandals) and kids as young as 2 wander the streets for most of the day 'playing' outside.

The local secondary school is crap and in special measures.

Can you imagine living there as a teen?

What can we possibly do to get out of this rut?

my 14 yo wears a hoody and looks quite scary. Yet he wouldn't sy boo to a goose.
When I was his age I had scary pink hair and peircings and old ladies would shuffle away from me on the bus.

But there has never been enough places for kids to go to in the evenings. there wasn't when I was a kid!

Bit of a red herring I think. We knew, that if we did something anti social, someone would see us, and tell our parents. Who would make our lives hell!

Nowadays there are less people out on the streets to 'see'

If they do 'see' they will probably not know who the kids are, due to the declining sense of community.

They may well be too frightened to 'tell' anyone.

The parents of the kids may well respond by giving the person a mouthful of abuse, or even physical violence.

So nothing gets done.

I am very happy here I must admit peachy despite everything. But the district council is sh*tting on us from a great height atm with regard to planning. Life is getting very hard in some ways. If someone waved a magic wand I'm not sure I wouldn't move out

I agree mb. Where were these wonderful places available to youngsters 30 or so years ago. I don't remember them - actually I was brought up in the middle of nowhere so I suppose I wouldn't.

Part of the problem is childrens 'rights' being enshrined in law. The ones who used to get a 'clip' around the ear or the cane, now stand up to the teacher, spit in their faces and say 'You can't touch me!'.
The pendulum has swung way to far the other way.

There is no community because we are all in watching TV
or MNeting
send them out, all at once, the place would be full, we would all chat and have a laugh and I would talk over the fence to my neighbour while everyone jumped around on space hoppers or played conkers.

I don't remember needing a place to go as a teen; if we went out (uaually we didnt tbh) we'd have the aprk or whatever- as someone said, if you do that now the police will move you on and you'd need to be somewhere. Also (and this si NOT emant as a WOHM citicism- i'm a student so not totally home based) there was usually someone with a Mum or dad at home whose house you could go to; less the case nowadays so it ahs to be rebalanced somewhere along the line?

I do think the conservatove Government contributed (not caused, we all ahve minds of our own) but consumerism doesn't help, and there was that whole 'get on your bike' which combined with high unemployment did lead to something of a fracturing of family support systems. Granny and six Aunts dion't all live on the street watchng your every move these days as was the case in mine. Indeed, until we moved here for the Uni, it was the case for the boys too.

Orm, I wasn't brought up in the middle of nowhere, but all we had was the Youth Club.

Think cracked table tennis balls, and lukewarm coffee.

All we did was bitch and moan about it and that we had 'no-where' to go. And periodically some kids would trash it and make it even worse.

Things for a healthy society ...

Forget about everyone having the opportunity to go to Uni and take a degree, be realistic and bring back apprenticeships. Having a manual skilled job is a good thing. It is also an achievable goal and therefore much more attractive for those that aren't naturally academic.

Scrap reality TV. Encouraging the nation to laugh at other people is an absolute disgrace.

Replace 'Food Technology' lessons with Home Economics. Actually being able to cooking is far more important than being able to write adverts for airline food.

Put police stations back on High Streets where they have a visible presence. In our nearest country town, the clubs & pubs are on or around the High Street whilst the police station is 1 mile away so you never see them.

But mostly, people need to stop living in little bubbles and start talking to their neighbours, go to local events ie. the school fair, even if they don't have DCs there and generally get involved. It's how life used to be (which is why everyone knew your name) but to suggest it now sounds so terribly middle-class. Working long hours isn't helping build communities either.

Message withdrawn

What money though Cod?

The only way there will be more money to achieve the utopis of the 50's is to tax us more than they already do and no government is going to get in if that's on the agenda.

UTOPIA.

serves me right for using big words.

What about religion? Do you think that as the influence of the Church and traditional religious morality has waned that people find it harder to control themselves and find a meaning to their lives?

this is a rich country. If we can afford to invade foreign countries then we can afford to do the decent thing by our citizens.
I went to New York after Guilliani's zero tolerance policy. What a difference! Cops on every corner and visible. Crime plummeted.

Don't Councils have 'film licences' now which cover schools? (which is why Reception 2007 get to watch Finding Nemo at the end of term whereas my class of 1974 got an outdated TV documentary about Life in Bombay).

If so, couldn't they be extended to run film clubs for local youths. Much more interesting than table-tennis. And the adults present would find it more interesting as well - you might even encourage normal parents to help rather than the gushy churchy types who used to provide weak squash.

Agree Cod.

Our village (more like a small town) in France is currently building a brand new Youth Centre slap bang in the middle of the village, so as to include teenagers fully in village life, not relegate them to the outskirts. There are paid workers who run a programme of activities in art, science, sport and culture - there's something after school every day, plus Saturdays and in the holidays. Our kids aren't old enough to have tried it, but it sounds fab. It costs MONEY, and it doesn't keep all yobbishness off the streets, but I'm sure it helps.

I'm not sure. I do think that religion has always been the cause of more upset than anything else. Though the church has in our society traditionally been the hub of the comnmunity so it in that respect then I do agree with you, although the demise of one could just be the symptomatic of the demise of the other IYSWIM.

Duchess, you have said it all much more eloquantly than I would.

I also think that the breakdown of the family is partly responsible (I am a single parent). I have no answers for that

Plus I agree with those who say consumerism has a lot to answer for.

Catholicism is massively increasing (due to immigration) so th Church isn't completely losing influenve, its being altered. Also the town where Ormirian lives and I grew up- both of us feel safe at nigt, but hugely secular ime, whilst here is very religious and hardly any community at all.

I am A Christian, but don't see the link as a definite one. It's more about the communities finding stuff to do together- whether its absed in a Church, school, or shed- and they did largely have that back home.

I'm afraid I don't agree Cod - that money will never be available and state intervention isn't good for people anyway.

There is nothing like the sense moral responsibility induced by behaving according to the standards of the people who love and respect you (= parents) to make children grow up into responsible citizens IMO.

Yes indeed. We all worship the great God Carnival!

I work for a children's charity and imhe it is not lack of facilities like youth groups for young people that cause the problems but lack of wider life experience. I meet children who do not leave their town/estate. I meet young people who have never been on holiday/been to the cinema/gone horse riding/ etc, etc If young people and children have no experience of wider society beyond their immediate environment & what they are fed on Big Brother etc their expectations and aspirations can only be unrealistic or completely lacking.

I would also like to add that generally young people are given a bad press they don't deserve

This is such an interesting topic and I think about it a lot. I don't know why it happens, but I do think it's not necessarily new. Look at [[http://www.tate.org.uk/tateetc/issue9/images/hogarth_ginlane.jpg this famous pic from the 1700s. Hogarth depicted "feckless" people who spent their lives drugged up, couldn't give a shit, didn't care for their children properly etc. It is a feature of many societies in many times and places and seems to go along with extremes of wealth and poverty.

If there is a change of late in the UK I think it may well date from Thatcher's time and the idea of everyone for themselves and that there's no point caring for each other. Consumerism and the importance placed on wealth, fame and goods lead to extremes of wealth and poverty and an underclass who can't have wealth and therefore feel a sense of worthlessness and pointlessness. They might as well do nothing/do crime because work cannot give them the wealth that they are taught is important.

But the lack of shame and selfishness issues aren't just to do with poverty and estates - I think they're a society-wide thing as well. I saw a thing on the news this morning about people calling up mountain rescue because they are tired or have to get to a meeting. A lot of people are developing the idea that because you fancy something you deserve it, immediately and who cares who is inconvenienced. I think that's to do with capitalism and the fact that that very concept is constantly used in advertising etc. I'm always shocked by the Loreal "because I'm worth it" and the Sainsbury's clothing range Tu slogan "It's all about yoou" - in my mind that's an insult to someone who is really selfish! We're constantly told to put our own needs first and bugger everyone else - and that message sinks in very deeply with some people.

Nah you don't Ormirian, you are carnival Atheist LOL

Of course, tis no surprise that they huild on a Sunday morning.....

but at least it's something people can join in with.

Perhaps we all need to 'judge' more and not less, as seems to be the current fashion.

For people to feel ashamed at their appalling behavior, then they must feel judged. The current vogue is 'oh, don't judge', 'you can't judge, unless you've walked a mile in their shoes' and all that kind of patronising platitudes, which effectively mean that no one dares to stand up and say, 'I actually don't care what the circumstances are, beating up an old granny is totally unacceptable, irrespective of the shoes the person is wearing and whether I might wish to walk in them for a few miles'.

I think that as a society we've been giving out too many messages of tolerance. It is fine to be tolerant as a society when all members of that society understand and live up to their responsibility to that society. All we have now is 'rights', 'tolerance' and very little idea of 'responsibility'!