The society we live in today - what is wrong with some people and how can it be fixed?

[DrNortherner]

Watching the news, all you see is stories of yobs being violent, socially disruptive, on the dole and genrally not giving a toss about themselves or anyone else. They have no desire to get off their arses and get a job and a better life and future.

Do we make it too easy for these kind of people? We give them money to spend, we let them off if they commit a crime and hell, we even house them if they become parents and pay some of their monthly bills.

I grew up on a council estate in Teesside, lived there till I was 17. My parents still live in the same house. My Gran and 2 aunties live on council estates too, and I visit regularly so I know what I am talking about. Don't shout me down in flames, I am not critiscising everyone, I am well aware there are many good people with morals who live on council estates, and I am the first to defend when a bit of council estate bashing takes place.

But I have seen a huge change.When I was a kid, most of the residents were elderly or young families, but mainly people had jobs - they just didn't earn alot. People took care of their properties and the gardens were immaculate.

Now it is a different story. It is full of youngsters with kids, with no jobs, with no hope and with no desire to improve their lot. I so worry about my mum and dad. They live next door to a young girl with 3 kids. The Dad is 19 and on drugs. They have lots of visitors throughout the night, and last year 4 men turned up and smashed all their windows and kicked their door in.

This is just one example. The local shops are nearly all closed down, lots of houses boarded up, kids parks in disrepair (because of local vandals) and kids as young as 2 wander the streets for most of the day 'playing' outside.

The local secondary school is crap and in special measures.

Can you imagine living there as a teen?

What can we possibly do to get out of this rut?

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Actually i think there is widespread undiagnosed SN yes- the BIBIC reports seem to suggest that (from earlier link) and I know that I ahd to fight for years to get ds1 (the less obvious but far more aggressive of my 2 Sn boys) diagnosed BUT I think there's justa s many otehr reasons- I clearly remember a family I used to work with where kids attended school once a term if that because 'Mum fancied some company' (Mum being an alcoholic who was routinely out of it by 9 am) and the school noteven picking it up until I put in a SS referral absed on a new pregnancy (and guess what- SS refused to intervene). Add tot hat schools where discipline is the priority because it HAS to be rather than teaching and what do you get? exactly this! Curse it's rarely so clear cut: a parent with alcoholism won't push for a sn dx and a parent with sn dx might feel so out of ytouch that they end up alcholic and a crap parent; every single family on thsi planet is a mix of factors- backgrounds, future prospects, economic relaities (eg miners villages where addiction rocketed), school provision- there's never one single 'cause' and there is always an over riding moral requirement to rpovide love and stability. Its the interaction of these factors which determine success or collapse.

OK will go catch up rest of thread LOL

How much of this is caused by the recent relative affluence - say in the last 10 years when the economy has been stable and growing, so people have had money in their pocket (either their own or on credit cards etc)? Has that contributed to the whole "get whatever you want right now and hang everyone else" mentality or did the mentality start much longer ago?

'I do think some of it is due to the home situation. A parent in one of my children's classes came into school, stormed into the classroom and verbally abused the teacher in front of all the children (including her own who was inconsolable for most of the rest of the day). What hope do her children have of learning about respect etc.? '

Totally agree with this.

A similar thing happened when my sister (now 32) was at school- Dad came in and screeched at the teacher etc.

What became of his kids?
Last I heard of the one my age she was nannying and being paid in heroin
2 middle boys were in prison
Eldest boy (lovely bloke, Mum used to take him in and wash him / mend his clothes from time to time) was removed after Dad tried to strangle him, last I heard he was married with children so goes to show some kids can defy even the worst odds. because of epoepl like my Mum perhaps? Who knows.

VS as per ussual (LOL) agree with your post starting with the bit about Thatcher.

CTGH Definately agree education would help the problem.

Disagree about not being sof on crime- I have access to some criminal records and some of hem read like books before a prison sentence is even given.

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Not read all threads but would agree that Margaret Thatcher has a lot to answer for. The OP's experience of the council estate directly relates to the right to buy a council house. This has resulted in the haves and have nots being polarised. There were no other council houses built to replace the sold stock and once all the good properties were sold, only the really worst ones remained with the really unfortunate folk in society living in them. Also, it means living in a council house now has a certain stigma attached to it whereas it was the norm before.

My folks still stay on the same council estate too and I agree with the sentiment. Gardens are now untidy, grafitti and vandalism are everywhere, it's just not as nice as it was before.

it's sad what happened to our old estate, Mum and dad still live there but my sister and I rent rpivately adn wpuld not live near them. you can tell the longer term residents houses from the newer because of the way the houses are looked after. But I don't think that is anew thing; dad often used to say his estate was lovely when it was all new and they moved in and lament how quickly it deteriorated (in the 1950's - 1960's). In the eighties it had a rep for riots and crime. Dad puts this down to a lack of anything to have pride in. Somehow dad's family gr4ew up OK despite 16 kids, invalid mother and alkie father- suspect the whole community thing was a lot of that.

parenting classes linked to the reciept of child benefit and family tax credit

Prof - I think this mentality started much longer ago than the 10 year boom, but has certainly been fuelled by the cult of individual self-betterment that grew up with Thatcher's government and has pretty much continued unabated ever since.

The Blairite idea of "choice" - particularly with regard to education - hasn't helped either. In practice it only serves to increase the divide between good and bad services, so for a significant proportion of the population it will always mean "no choice".

I agree with those who think that social division is at the root of this issue, and particularly with Policy's post about tolerance cutting both ways.

i think that we need to create a culture of non acceptance of certain parenting - like 2 year olds shouldbnt be walking the street

we know its true - the reason these women do it is becuase clearly the rest of society dont give a shit enought to report it

we need investment in parents not pseudo parenting VIA our schools system

as ever, I agree with custy.

and along with non acceptance of shite parenting, general non acceptance of shite behaviour in society as a whole, while understanding where the shite behaviour might have come from.

Yes, I hate all shite things too. But what would non-acceptance mean in practical terms? What would you actually do with someone whose parenting is poor?

but investment in parenting could take the form of education - as a starting point at least

Definitely custy, it's almost seen as 'grassing' to report a child wandering the streets, which is ridiculous, for the childs sake, and on a much larger stake, socieites we should intervene and say 'woah, surely something is going wrong here' and call someone.

Unfortunately social workers (like many teachers) are seen as the 'bad people' that stick their noses in, maybe not by anyone who has written on this thread but by the parents who are allowing their young children to walk the streets.

Like someone said earlier, parents abuse teachers, I've seen it firsthand, teachers being accused of picking on someones child or looking down their nose at a certain child because his parents don't have as much money

I would hope and assume that many if not most teachers would be incredibly happy to spend that little bit extra time on a child whose home life is not that great in the hope that they could help improve the childs life in the future but parents showing them absolutely no respect and working against them rather than with them are not allowing that to happen.

The same I have seen said about social workers, they are 'interferring', 'sticking their nose in' 'judging' etc when really they are trying to do te best they can for the child with their hands tied behind their back.

It's about time Human Rights and political correctness and all that Jazz was there to protect the people who are trying to help rather than hinder them, these types of jobs are hard enough as it is.

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I honestly dont know how you do your job Cod, I watched some weird programme the other day on some even weirder channel called Red?
Anyway the programme was called peoples court and it involved some reporter stopping people outside the courts to ask what they were up for and what they had done previously etc.

Half of them I wanted to grab and give jobs to and watch them flourish with someone actually believing in them and the other half I wanted to exterminate.

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So - as IorekB says - how do you suggest we improve poor parenting? Shame people in to giving up drugs and alcohol?

I'm not being facetious, how do you actually do it?

Work'us of course, counting Make 'em do it properly.

I don't know how. First of all define 'properly'. There are a hundred methods of parenting on Mumnset, let alone in the wider world.

the gap between rich and poor is the largest it has ever been.

And that explains nearly everything on this thread.

I think properly would mean ensure the children came to no harm and were able to make the most of school IMO.

I think most things can be overlooked as a personal way of parenting but not a child in the street at two, or a child unable to go to school.

Education is the only way to improve things, educate the children of today to be a better breed of adult tomorrow than there is at the moment.