GF: Love her or hate her? the Great Debate. Please leave all weapons at the door and NO stomping off, offended. OK?

[SoupDragon]

OK, to avoid the Great Debate cluttering up other threads where pro-GF mums are asking for help, I've started this one. It may have been done before...

If you read another thread and have nothing helpful but want to share your GF feelings, do it here!

I guess it could get heated here so please don't get offended and storm off in a huff as has happened elsewhere with other contentious issues - just avoid this thread

OK, for what it's worth, I have no problems with GF except for the fact that all babies are different so her rigid routine may not fit in with your baby. You should maybe see her routines as flexible - half an hour or an hour either way isn't going to make much difference is it? And I think that before 6 weeks is way too young to be messing with feeding routines, especially if you're breastfeeding. It can mess up your supply in theose important first weeks and I think this is why breastfeeding counsellors seem to hate her so much.

Right, I'm off to duck beneaththe parapet and let you get on with it!

Oooh a debate! I used GF with huge success. It's ok for everyone else to slag her off, obviously there are lots of mothers out there whose natural instincts were much better than mine and who were obviously so oozing with confidence that they didn't need to resort to a parenting book at all - perish the thought! But I was a first-time mum with no family close by and no friends to help. Me and dh had no idea what to do with dd when she came home and all the HV and midwives would say was "You'll know what to do, you'll be ok" but we didn't know what to do - how could we? Parenting classes would have been a great idea, if only the nhs offered them! Anyway we came across GF, put her ideas into practice and were astounded when they worked! Since then I've recommended her to every mum I've come across!

She can be a bit extreme I guess, we didn't use the bits we didn't like and after dd was well into the routine we felt safe to chop and change so the routine fell into our plans a bit more. Dd is still a good sleeper and eater, probably due to personality too, but that early routine helped I think, and it was such a relief for me in those early days to have someone (a book!) to turn to when things were going wrong.

So don't slag off GF too much, many of us owe our sanity to her - we aren't all blessed with being "earth mothers"!

Oh and I drank whilst pregnant AND breastfeeding - horror of horrors! I had about 5 or 6 units a week, so not much in my estimation. Us mothers have to live a little too, and if the odd tipple relieves the pressure of being a bloated whale and/or harrassed and sleep deprived first time mum then I'm all for it. So some mothers manage without alcohol, caffine and nicotine, well whoopee for them! We're not all perfect!

And you know what - one of my reasons for giving up b/f was to get drunk! So lock me up and throw away the key! I gave my dd 4 months of b/f, had mastitis, had to put up with the anti-b/f brigade that is mainly my family, went against GPs advice to stop when I had mastitis and I put up with VERY leaky breasts squirting innocent passers-by. After 9 months of being pregnant and 4 months of b/f I wanted to get absolutely ratted. You have to stop b/f sometime right? I think I'm a brilliant mother, all the better in fact for also being an individual and living life for myself every once in a while.

So there!

Round of applause to Rhubarb ! You said exactly what I wanted to say but couldn't as I was getting too wound up by some of the comments on this thread!

Squirting innocent passers-by, Rhubarb? tsk tsk!

Have you just come back from your holiday? How was it?

As has been said many times, the only probelm with Mumsnet is hat we are only reading what people write, not listenning to the tone of the words. This makes people take things the wrong way, and get het up by comments that are just that, comments. This thread was meant to be provocative, look at the title, so please don't get offended by any of the comments anyone, we are all generalising via our own experiences.

Susanmt, I am interested that you don't think Mumsnet is the same as real life. I find that there are many more diverse people I have 'met' via mumsnet than I ever would in the 'real world'. Most people I know with kids have traditional homes, man working, 2 perfect kids, wife a SAHM (or part time to earn 'pin-money' - their phrase not mine). I work full time, have 2 kids, DH works sporadically and I spend my whole life juggling. Mumsnet is a place where I find so many others in a variety of situations, all trying to do the best for their family and themselves. In fact that seems to be the only thing we all have in common here, we all want what's best for our family, and we all put them first. I suppose it's because we all want the best, we come here to find out what is the best. However none of us can truely agree because there is no one thing that works for all. Just loads of past experience. That's why this thread is facinating, I love a good debate!

Juat skimmed through the last few messages so excuse me if this has been said before.

Re trusting instincts: I trusted my 'instincts' or whatever you want to call them because I could not trust myself to remember, let alone adhere to any strict instructions. I would have been 'The woman who was too stupid to follow Gina Ford' - blame my hormones.

I am an older mum, but I didn't read much because I just couldn't take it in. I was too used to being childless for all those years to switch into mother mode overnight.

I asked my HV for advice as I went along and dipped into the few books I had for specific answers when problems arose.

Crunchie, interesting what your brother has noted re: younger/older mums. the main observation I made in hospital was that the youngest mums were most likely to give their babies formula (left tantalisingly on the midwives' station counter, in cute ready-mixed dinky bottles) and stand on the fire escape having a fag. I suspect it's a result of a mixture of "I'm not letting this baby get in the way of the things I enjoy in my life" and whatever experiences their mums have passed on ie they were probably bottle fed and they believe this to be fine. I was bottle fed but being an older mum, I've had many years to make up my own mind re: how good breastfeeding is. On other issues re: parenting, ok, I'm pretty well-read but I also used a bit of instinct too, I think

i'm not saying there is anything wrong with drinking and i have the occasional glass of wine (i am bfing) when dillon has gone to bed (i know the alcohol wiil be out my system by the time he wakes 10 hrs later). I didn't drink when pregnant though. What i am talking about are mums i know that go down the pub, baby in tow and go home in charge of a buggy off their faces!
when not pregnant/bfing i love a good drink. I just feel that to give up alcohol (or getting drunk) because of bfing for a couple of years is worth making sure my baby grows up healthy, I have the rest of my life to drink when i want. I'm sure when i do get round to being drunk, i'll regret it in the morning anyway!
smoking, i have no sympathy with, I gave up when i became pregnant with my 1st, It was hard but knowing what it would do to my baby made it possible. I remember being in hospital seeing a mum in labour going out for fag! unbelievable :-(

on the GF subject i think we all have to agree to disagree, but i can't help being upset of the thought of babies being bullied into routines e.g. controlled crying. Surely if your baby is secure in the knowledge that you love them and their needs are met the will sleep soundly on their own once they have realised how to go to sleep on their own! with no crying!

tracy
xx

Oh traceyhay please don't think that GF mums are that bad.
GF doesn't advocate CC until about 6m - before then she says "her" babies should only cry for max 1 hour a day (in short bursts) which is often less than non GF babies. (This is in the early days when as we all know babies cry for no discernable reason - I think they just like the sound )
My dd was not "bullied" into a routine, she was gently eased into it. She is completely secure in the knowledge that I love her, and all her needs are met every day. Being a GF Mum and loving your baby are not mutually exclusive, and it really does upset me that some people feel that because I put my dd in a routine (that she loves and is thriving on) that in some way I care any less (or any more) for her than someone who demand feeds and lets the baby run things. NOTHING could be further from the truth.

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Oh yes robinw, but thats because you haven't met me or dd yet

hmb, I was generalising, but it was an observation based on my own experience. As for your comment about organisation, can't speak for anyone else, but I am hopelessly disorganised!

Ellasmum, you are kind of proving my point about GF discouraging her readers from trusting thier instincts.

Crunchie, hmmm, not sure about it being to do with reading. I refused to read anything about miscarriage when I was pg, just from a 'tempting fate' point of view, but I'd read almost everything else. Although having said that, I went into my first scan with great excitement, never even considering that there could be anything wrong, and it came as a big shock when there was. Oh, I don't know.

Droile, I do know what you mean about younger parents, although I can only think of one or two that it applies to, and it's more to do with resenting the limits placed on them than wishing they'd never had kids. I can also think of older parents who seem to dislike their children.

Tracyhay, most of the younger mums I know are a bit like this too. I am 22 with a 4yr old and a 6 month old, and I have always got on better with the older mums, as I find the ones my age have such different values.

robinw, I don't know if you were answering my comments, but just to clarify, I was talking about the instincts thing as distinct from GF, not relating the two.

Oooh, and just for the record, I was 18 when I had my ds, never smoked, rarely drink, I couldn't feed him, but expressed for 10 months, dd I have fed for 16 months, cloth nappied, never left to cry, etc. I'm not suggesting that any of that makes me any better or worse than anyone else, I'm just pointing out that not all of us young mums live up to the stereotypes

See robinw - anais is another perfect mum - so that makes one perfect gf and one perfect non gf

Susanmt - I am really interested in your comment that you know a lot of people (in real life!) whose lives are made misery by GF - quite frankly, apart from here on mumsnet, I have never heard GF discussed - is it really that common 'out there'? !

I don't want to trivialise, I have read this entire thread and am sorry about your experience.

I don't know what category I fit into - definately an older mum, definately like 'order' in my life, find having a child very daunting and don't have many instincts! Love drinking and happily drank 2-3 units per day whilst pregnant and b/feeding for 8 months (BAD MOTHER!!), read every book going and felt drawn to most of GF comments - although not all by any means. Not into cloth nappies/organic food/co-sleeping!!

Love mumsnet & the diversity of comments but still can't understand why there is such animosity towards GF but not other 'parenting styles' for example & this will probably cause outrage but there are a couple of threads on dummies & co-sleeping & how to stop this - but no one says 'you shouldn't have done it in the first place' - which is what I feel the reaction is towards GF mums.

Ooooh, I co-sleep too!

Prufrock are you trying to cause trouble by any chance!

To Demented... thank you !
Not joining this debarte... there is too much to read and I have said my peace on this one many times !

I dont think I said I know a lot of people whos lives are made a misery. I do know (off the top of my head) 7 people who are using GF for babies up to about 2 at the moment - and I know that one of them gave the book to two of the others.
I reckon two of them seem to ba makig their lives a misery (or their childrens lives) - for the others, I couldn't possibly comment. What I do know is that several of them have made my life (and the lives of other friends) difficult by constantly banging on about Gina Ford until we are all sick and tired of hearing about it. On Mumsnet, those who use Gina say they feel under attack - well, amongst some people I know it is the other way round. There is a constant subtext of 'well, if you did things this way then ......' And yes, most of these Mums are older, well educated, usually very competent and in control people who have been thrown by the chaotic effect a child can have on your life. I didn't realise I was laid back at all until I had children! Maybe I'm not , but in comparison to some people, and especially those who have chosen to use GF, I am!
I do think usage of the book is more common in some areas of the country than others, I think it depends on personal recommendations, health staff etc (like my HV was handing it out until I complained, so there are quite a few people here using it).

And as for Mumsnet not being like real life, well its not very like my real life! As I said, you only have to look at the list of what people do to see its a bit unbalanced.

I love it anyway!

From what I've read I would certainly agree about the misery of the poor babies subjected to these routines. Some of the case studies in the book are appalling, almost tantamout to cruelty in some cases IMO.

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Anais - you said that the babies on the routine are miserable - but what about the Mums who have been saved from a life of misery by GF???

I am not a follower of her routines but have read enough on Mumsnet to know that her book has been very helpful to many Mums and has helped them through a tough time. I am sure that none of them would have followed the book if they thought their babies were unhappy or that they were being cruel.

Oooh anais how could you accuse me of that? The words pot, kettle and black spring to mind

I have said my piece and I do very much go by 'each to their own...' so what ever works for you, go for it...

BUT ... just for the record, anais... 'the misery of the poor babies subjected to these routines'... how come my baby became a happier baby within 4 days of being in the routine, when prior to that he was miserable 24/7????

No, prufrock I never had to leave my baby to cry to 2 hours because he took to the routine so well ... I wouldn't have let him cry for that long at all if he had BUT ... in defence of GF, she doesn't tell anyone to leave their baby to cry for 2 hours does she?

I think that this debate ought to end now though because I think that it is clear that everyone has their different views and ideas and everyone will go with what they want to do ... all that is happening now is that people are just getting a bit bitchy ...

ellasmum - we were posting at the same time, but just wanted to say thank you!

Not really arsed either way about GF - but do wonder why anyone who finds their life is made a misery by following the routine doesn't just stop doing it. What's up with your two friends Susanmt... are we talking Stepford wives???

Dunno - it is a weird one? One of them is the one that wont go out during nap times - she's forever saying 'I wish I could get out more, but with ds in his routine ......' The other one is upset as she has failed breastfeeding, with her 3 month old baby. She tried to follow the routines from 2 weeks and the only way she could get the sleeps in the book in was to give formula, and has now stopped bf, and her eyes fill up every time she talks about it. She says sometimes she wishes she hadn't done it.
I find both of these very sad - but also a little silly. You are right, if it makes you happy and your baby thrives on it, well do it. If it makes you miserable, bin the book. But there is something about it which people seem to find very hard to put down.