GF: Love her or hate her? the Great Debate. Please leave all weapons at the door and NO stomping off, offended. OK?

[SoupDragon]

OK, to avoid the Great Debate cluttering up other threads where pro-GF mums are asking for help, I've started this one. It may have been done before...

If you read another thread and have nothing helpful but want to share your GF feelings, do it here!

I guess it could get heated here so please don't get offended and storm off in a huff as has happened elsewhere with other contentious issues - just avoid this thread

OK, for what it's worth, I have no problems with GF except for the fact that all babies are different so her rigid routine may not fit in with your baby. You should maybe see her routines as flexible - half an hour or an hour either way isn't going to make much difference is it? And I think that before 6 weeks is way too young to be messing with feeding routines, especially if you're breastfeeding. It can mess up your supply in theose important first weeks and I think this is why breastfeeding counsellors seem to hate her so much.

Right, I'm off to duck beneaththe parapet and let you get on with it!

Well, mad yes, but still managing to influence lots of vulnerable people and potentially damage lots of innocent and defenceless babies

Oh yes! I was talking agin today to my friend who may as well be married to GF. The onewho would rather do GF than breastfeed. Oh it's nice to talk to someone who agrees with me (dh is fed up hearing about it!)

Ok, I have a theory. And seeing as there's no one here to tell me to shut up I am going to share it.

It's regarding instincts. Several of you are denying that you possess these instincts. Am I right in thinking that those of you expressing that would be "older mums". Most of the (1st time) Mums I know, fall into two categories - young mums (under 21) and "older mums" (mid 30's-40's), I know very few whose ages fall in between. In my experience, the younger mums are far more confident and trusting of their instincts than the older mums. So it is my theory that we all possess these instincts, just in some, in most cases those who have had babies later rather than sooner, the instincts are somewhat buried.

IMO it is these same instincts which tell us that our child is unwell, for example.

I don't think in this day and age we are encouraged to trust our instincts, and I certainly believe that the likes of GF positively discourage trust in instincts. Only by undermining confidence in our own instincts can she hope to con people into swallowing the rubbish she peddles.

I think you might have something there. But then I was 29 when I had my first and I trusted my instincts. But I think you are dead on about GF discouraging this. If you constantly 'anticipate' your babies needs, then how are you ever going to get to use your instincts, and using them hones them. I can tell now from a little grumble, that ds is hungry. He isn't always hungry at the same time, and feeding him when he doesn't want it would be as wrong as not feeding him when he is.
Someone mentioned how their kid on GF never cries. Well, my children, not GF, hardly ever cry either. I would rather take the credit my self than give it ti GF, whi I still think looks like Anne Widdecombe!

When I say trusted my instincts, I did until I was given the CLBB and tried it. It took months for me to feel comfortable trusting myself again. And that is hard for me to remember.

Goodness, anais, do you realise how patronising your comments about older Mums, younger mums sounds? I have no feelings about GF either way, but your statement does seem to me to be a huge generalisation. How would it have sounded if someone said that older mums are more organised and younger mothers are more disorganised . (not that I think this is the case, i am just trying to make a point.

Anais - I do not know whether I fall into 'younger' or 'older' Mums category but,I was 27 when I had DD and definitely did not trust my instincts in the beginning. Probably because I read GF during pregnancy and thought that she knew it all - how wrong I was.

Anais, with regard to the older mum, younger mum idea. I have got to agree with you (sorry to be sweeping/patronising to everyone). My brother is a pediatrician and he secialises in neo-natal care (prem babies), he also has worked in various places including Richmond, Lewisham and Guy's hospital n London. In his experience he totally agrees with you. The older, and more educated the mother, he found the less likely to rely on instinct. Everything from giving birth to looking after the baby. His view was that the younger 16 year old (for instance) believed that they knew everything and could deal with it, and had no idea that things didn't always go according to plan. The Older mother, who had read more and asked more questions, didn't trust their instincts as much.

I know this is a totally sweeping statement, and will p**s people off (he put no age thing on this, just older/younger), but I get teh feeling that the ones who had babies slightly later, tend to read all the books and want to do things the RIGHT way. This is why GF seems to appeal to them as her book does say that this is the RIGHt way.

Personally I liked some of her concepts that if a baby had enough sleep in the day, they slept better at night etc, but and this is a big but had a happy baby who naturally fell into a routine not disimilar to hers. Also my mother said that a routine would be important once I had two kids since at least I would know where I was.

Ooh, it's hotting up now!
I'm an older mum and my instincts weren't buried. (I know you didn't mean it like that anais, I'm just feeling literal this morning).
I think what gf mums are trying to say is that yes, of course they were able to rely on their instincts when it came to when baby needed to feed or sleep, but for a first time mum, the general structure of the day, or lack of it, can be daunting. I remember picking up GF, reading all the things I could possibly be doing with every minute of every day and then cheerfully doing what I pleased. The knowledge that there was a structure there if I ever got lost was comforting. Of course I knew when to feed (all the time) and when he needed to sleep, but the looseness of the endless days melting into and indistinguishable from the endless nights was terrifying. GF can give you a sense of security and 'permission' to go and peel the potatoes during the morning sleep because 'other babies' are perhaps having a morning sleep too, and it's normal. With my first, I panicked ocassionally in case he was sleeping too much (!). Then I read GF and saw that it was normal. Perhaps I was a wuss, but I used to wander around the house not knowing what to do if he had fed and slept, in other words, not knowing how to entertain him. I remember searching between the lines of GF thinking, 'where does it tell you how to play with them, what to do with them when you need to make the dinner'.
Whoops, I'm starting to sound like a GF mum.

Back to the 'older mums' thing - I think the real difference is between first timers and those with experience. There were loads of mums of all ages at my first M&Ts group, and we were all in the same (rapidly sinking) boat. The only difference I noticed was that the younger ones hankered after careers and nights out more than the older ones, who had done lots already (too much in some cases ) and knew that their time would come again.

Sorry crunchie, you were posting at the same time as me.
What your brother says does make sense I suppose, in other ways too. Younger people don't tend to think anything can go wrong (because often, nothing has, yet) and I can certainly remember feeling almost immortal, and would take more risks and worry a lot less. I don't necessarily believe that this means older people ignore their instincts and rely on experience/books read, etc; I think they are more likely to balance both instincts and knowledge, then hedge their bets and prepare for the worst case scenario.
To really put the cat amongst the pidgeons, most of the 'wish I hadn't had kids' seems to come from the younger end, while the older ones seem to really appreciate what they've got (I'm a fine one to talk, I know). Just a little sweeping generalisation which won't apply to any mumsnetters (if you didn't care about them, you wouldn't be using a parenting website).

Can I ask a genuine question about GF? If it is your second baby how do you fit the routines around the first? i.e if you have to be at playgroup or school to pick up the first one, presumably you can't do this "we have to be at home for baby's nap time" business?

Hope nobody was offended by my last post. I didn't mean that young mums don't care as much, I just meant that the worst parts of being a mum seem to get to them a bit more, going by what some of them say. And not all young mums, just some. (oh dear, wish I'd never bothered. Should have stuck to being flippant...)

I'm not absolutely convinced that there is such a thing as maternal instinct, at least not to begin with. I do think that new mothers are flooded with hormones to enable some kind of bonding/love process but I'm not sure that we all know instinctively what to do to look after a new baby, especially first time round. We know to love them, sure, but do we instinctively know how to look after them? I don't think I did/would have, regardless of my age. So I can see why we all reach for the childcare gurus, especially in the absence of our own mothers of other female relatives to advise us. (I hadn't heard of GF back then though).

I agree www. I think the absence of extended family makes a huge difference. But I would guess that having a MIL and your mum around constantly 'offering' conflicting advice also has its problems. I quite like dipping into different books, and mumsnet, and kind of averaging all the advice and weighing it up against my own common sense.

Crunchie I ahve to say your point makes absolute sense to me ( as an old first time mum). I got ABSOLUTELY fed up of people telling me to ''go with my instincts''. I didn't HAVE any instincts about most things - or at least I didn't until I'd read a whole raft of books across the spectrum and then, far more aware of the issues and possibilites, I DID go with my instincts as to which ideas/methods/approaches I wished to follow.
How is ''instinct'' by itself with no book knowledge and no extended family to pass on information supposed to give you an idea as to when and how to wean for example?

susanmt - "rather do GF than breastfeed"??? I did a bit of GF and a lot of breastfeeding

My view is that we all have to learn everything in life really. We may have instincts but it how they are applied that count.

OK - lots to catch up on after a weekend of real life
The reason a lot of babies seem to fit into semi GF routines is because her routines have been based on lots of babies behaviour. She didn't just make them up! She says that she came up with the book after realising that a lot of the babies she worked with were happiest when they were doing these sort of routines - naturally.

I agree, bottlefeeding just so GF will fit is ridiculous, and not at all what she herself would or does advocate.

GF does say that routines will need to be changed when you have toddlers as well to fit into pick-ups etc. with small changes the basic routine can fit in these journeys during am and pm sleep times.

I am 28 - so don't fit into the older or younger Mum group. As a educated and intelligent person (well I like to think I am) I did read every single childcare book/website I could find. BUT I also had the nouse (sp?) to discriminate between the conflicting advice I found, rather than trying to find a one size fits all answer that woudl solve everything for me.
I agree that the tone of GF can be very offputting, and some people do unfortunately go through what susanamt did, where due to PND, general lack of confidence, tiredness or whatever you get too stressed to realise that IT IS NOT THE END OF THE WORLD IF EVEN A GF BABY DOES NOT FOLLOW THE ROUTINE EXACTLY. Some people (not most of us fortunately) just get too extreme with their child rearing choices. Whether this involves following GF to the letter (and ghosty did you really, really do this? would you have left your baby to cry for 2 hours during the lunch time nap if he/she did not want to sleep - really?) or taking the earth mother thing to the extreme and still be bf on demand every 20 mins with a 2 year old.

susanmt,

My non GF baby never cries either
your friend sounds mad but at least she's not using the "i want to ge drunk" excuse for bottlefeeding like many i know! my dp and i have a theory about gf mums who follow GF like a god! They are mostly control freaks. The mums i personally know who do gf i are very bossy and obsessive about tidyness etc and like baby in a routine. Unlike me! My house is a tip cos i bf all day! So what, i'd rather have a messy house for a while and give my child the best food of all than bottlefeed for the sake of a bit of free time to do the housework in!
Talking of young mum/older mum thing. I am in limbo. I am 23 with a 3 yr old and 8 week old. I don't fit in with other mums of my age as they lead a life i don't wish to. They smoke around their children, go out drinking alot, bottlefeed etc (i am not stereo typing but these are the people i know) and they think i am a spoilsport (for not feeding my son sweets) and mad! Whereas i am a bfing, cloth nappy, organic eating mum. I don't fit in! Older mums may share my parenting opinions but they don't talk to me as they assume i am like the other younger mums. So i have no friends that are parents other than those on the net!
It's lucky GF has no children, imagine what sort of mil she'd be!! The horror of it! She'd do well running a boot camp, not children!

Tracy
xx

Ho Hum - I do wish GF WAS my mil - she'd be far more useful than the one I've got !

I really think we ought to end this thread now as we are all just repeating ourselves - some of us don't seem able to let it lie !

Everyone's free to make their own choices and no-one needs castigating for the choices they make - parenting is hard enough without all this - it's just a shame some people here have to keep nagging on about it ! Nobody is going to win this argument so why wind each other up ?

This website is meant to be supportive but I'm finding some people's banging on about their "right way" of child rearing really irritating - so - whilst I am not stomping off - I am leaving and not returning to this thread !

traceyhay
I wanted to get drunk. That DOES NOT make me a bad Mum. My dd had first formula at 5 months as I could not cope with working full time and expressing all night. It is quite possible to "pump and dump" which means that bf does not stop you from occasionally getting totally p**d. (See Breastfeeding and alcohol thread)
I also freely admit to being a control freak - it also does not make me a bad Mum - just makes me knackered and poor cos I see to my babies needs then spend time I could spend sleeping tidying up, and employ a cleaner.
There are many different ways to be a good parent, and we mumsnetters seem to encompass them all. Just because we don't all do it the same doesn't mean one way is better than the other.

Very much agree with your last sentence, Prufrock.

Prufrock - I also agree with what you said. I think that the biggest strength in Mumsnet is the diversity.
We do all do it our own way, and I know and truly believe that every Mum is Supermum because it is the hardest job in the whole world, but also the best.
Howeverm three are different strokes for different folks, and I am afraid that the majority of opinions I have had expressed to me over the last year have not been of the earth-mother-cloth-nappy-breast-feeding type (ME!), but the GF school of doing things. I know we are discussing this on mumsnet, where people are fairly moderae, but I cannot emphasise enough how many people there are out there who are using GF as their religion and not deviating for a second, and then preaching about it.
Mumsnet may be varied, but it is not the real world. You only have to look at the 'What do you Mumsnetters do' thread to see that!

Is anyone else finding this thread morbidly fascinating?

The comment about older parents caught my eye - as older parents ourselves (43 and 41) dh and I have a slightly different theory: that older parents go one of two directions - either ultra nervous OR ultra relaxed. We believe (hope!) we've gone the latter route - although we've been helped in that by a very relaxed and contented baby. (.... although which comes first??!!)

... although it can be argued that you can be a bit TOO relaxed - losing a baby who climbed down the stairs and out the door at 17 months (found the other side of the house next door!) is just one of the incidents!

We had no set routine, didn't read GF, but he slept through from the start (he's now 2) (8pm - or whenever we get round to it and up again at 6.45 weekdays and whenever we get round to it at weekends - he just plays with his toys until we get him), and adapts easily to changes to routines (eg on holiday). I did use some of my own "theories" - which worked for me - such as he never goes down for his nap (approx 3 hours in the afternoon at weekends - childminder has a different routine) in his cot but put him into a travel cot in a different room as it is the one sleep he DOES fight and I din't want his bedroom to have "bad" sleep conotations.

I suppose I am just saying that I HAVE, as an older parent, followed my own instincts, combined with a certain amount of common sense, reading sites such as Mumsnet and getting ideas that fit in with our won way fo life and, most importatn of all (to me) have watched the relaxed example of my best friend (who unfortunately lives 300 miles away) who has 4 kids (ranging from 3-13), she and her dh are both f/t GPs, she home cooks, walks the dog (I hate her really!)

I've been off Mumsent for some time - I was off work for quite a while, followed by a (much needed) holiday and then needing to catch up at work (not yet succeeded!). I can see that there has been a lot going on in my absence!

The good news for a MOnday morning was that I won an Imagination Desk in the last competiton!