GF: Love her or hate her? the Great Debate. Please leave all weapons at the door and NO stomping off, offended. OK?

[SoupDragon]

OK, to avoid the Great Debate cluttering up other threads where pro-GF mums are asking for help, I've started this one. It may have been done before...

If you read another thread and have nothing helpful but want to share your GF feelings, do it here!

I guess it could get heated here so please don't get offended and storm off in a huff as has happened elsewhere with other contentious issues - just avoid this thread

OK, for what it's worth, I have no problems with GF except for the fact that all babies are different so her rigid routine may not fit in with your baby. You should maybe see her routines as flexible - half an hour or an hour either way isn't going to make much difference is it? And I think that before 6 weeks is way too young to be messing with feeding routines, especially if you're breastfeeding. It can mess up your supply in theose important first weeks and I think this is why breastfeeding counsellors seem to hate her so much.

Right, I'm off to duck beneaththe parapet and let you get on with it!

anais - I said you were a perfect mother - you forgot that one.
I really did mean it as well. I think each of us are perfect mothers (and fathers if SH is reading this ), for OUR kids. Listening to your views though you and I would be terrible mothers for each others kids, but that doesn't matter.

You come her because most of the time, most of us manage to have interesting debates without resorting to personal insults. It would be boring if we all agreed with each other all the time, and definately wouldn't have made me think as much as I have since finding this site.

(And you're addicted - go on, admit it you know you are)

Droile there is - it's called lots of calpol (I'm joking)

Ok, to 'justify' my beliefs, what better than a few of GF's own words:

This, in the introduction would have put me off right away: "Why can't we just leave them to cry when they are tiny..."

Some more examples:

"I agreed to move in...on the condition that their mother did not allow either baby on the breast, from 11am that day. I arrived at 6pm in the evening and both babies were screaming the place down with hunger, as they had been used to feeding every 2-3 hours. Their mother had followed my instructions and not fed the babies..."

Let me repeat that - the babies had been used to feeding every 2-3 hours and she denied them food for SEVEN HOURS.

"He woke up on the dot of 1am and went beserk; for an hour he never gave up once. Eventually he went quiet, only to start yelling again an hour later. This went on and off until 5am when he went very quiet, and this time he did not wake at 7am. I got him up anyway..."

"During the final week I spent hours upon hourscooking and pureeing...fruit and vegetables...a perfect way of keeping myself busy so that I did not have time to pick James up every time he yelled."

"Robert cried for over three hours; the parents did not go in at all...the second night he cried again for three hours"

"...I agreed to move in...on the one condition that the mother was prepared to allow controlled crying. I also insisted that Lucy be given a bottle of formula at 7pm instead of the breast..."

These are just a few examples. How any parent can read this and think it could be a GOOD thing is beyond me.

Tigermoth, I know some mums who have found that they need to use GF BECAUSE they had a difficult baby... I know Bloss and I did. In my case DS cried EVERY night from birth between 1200 and 0400 what ever we did... in 2 or 3 days of GF he had completely changed.

WWW : If I had a 5 yo I would use GF if I had a difficult baby as I would do all that I can for my baby to find a rythm that suited him... so what my 5 yo has had me for 5years. He may have to stop playgroup in the morning for 3 months OR I manage to go to Playgroup at 1030 when baby is awake (which is what we currently do, we miss 30 minutes of playgroup so that DD can have a proper nap in her cot) as I personally don't think babies sleep all that well in a pram... but I see plenty of those at Playgroup.

Rhubarb, I have always attempted to treat my children gently and with respect. That is not to say that they are allowed to do what they want or get away with doing 'bad' things .My ds wouldn't harm a fly, he has never hurt any other child. That's not to say he's an angel, far from it, but I do believe you get out what you put in, if you know what I mean.

KS, I'm glad I amuse you, but I have to say I'm glad I'm not coming at Xmas, if I wasn't going to be lynched before becasue of the last GF thread then I am now!

Prufrock, you are right of course. Each of us knows our child best (but I still think GF should die). And yes, I am hopelessly addicted, why else would I put up with the abuse?

Fortunately, I don't take it as seriously as some have. Say what you like about me, I have enough belief in myself and my views (someone has to...) that what other people say doesn't matter. I know I'm doing what's right for my kids. And I say again, if you truly believe in what you are doing then why get so hurt when others don't agree?

Anais, I have to come out (ducking) and say that I agree with you, those extracts are truly disgustable. Even out of context - I can't possibly imagine a context that would justify any of that. (I have the book so should look it up but I'm too lazy).
I would add that I expect most mumsnetters would ignore such extreme GF and just take out the palatable, humane bits that work. As for those with PND, or those who are simply ultra-impressionable, - well. I don't know. Poor babies.

Anais, type those sentences in context please and the answers will become clear. Besides we are not asking that you accept GF or even like her, just to accept that other mothers have found her to be a great help to them - is that too much to ask?

anais - you could always come but not admit you were you.

Droile - you're right most people would ignore such extremes. They horrified me out of context (and in all cases the context was that GF was trying to solve problems that were even more upsetting - for the babies not just the mothers)

Right, Prufrock. If the original problems were bad then perhaps. I should just get the book out and have a look really. But too tired. Night Night.

Rhubarb, if I was to type the quotes "in context" I would be here all night. Even in context I don't think it is justifiable. I don't think any outcome is worth putting defenceless babies through that.

Anais:
You go girl!!!

OK, my 2p worth on the quotes Anais picks from the book. I can't go and look them up as my book is lurking in the loft.

1st quote: Personally, I can't think of anything that justifies denying babies food for 7 hours but I'd be interested to know what GF thought did justify it. If you saw an NSPCC ad where it said "Thomas and Arthur have to sing for their supper. They haven't been fed for 7 hours" you'd all be horrified.

Last Quote: I dont have a problem with the controlled crying bit (depending on the age of the baby) but I find GF "insisting" the baby be given formula instead of breastmilk at 7pm offensive. She has absolutely no right to "insist" this for someonelse's baby, only to "suggest". To set conditions like this on her help is just awful.

The other quotes I'm not so sure about. My personal feelings are that there could have been situations to justify the actions described, depending on the age of the baby.

I've friends who have had difficult babies and can see where leaving them to cry was the only option. I've friends for whom GF has worked miracles, with no distress to the baby. I also have a friend whose baby needing winding for nearly an hour after every feed or she would scream with terrible colic - how would GF routines have helped this baby when she was crying becuse of pain?

Just one more thing, if you're upset by this thread or offended then don't come back to this thread. Provided the debate is contained here, you should be safe on other threads

Also, I think everyone needs to calm down a bit. If, for example, all the GF mums are scared off by harsh words and postings they find offensive, then there's not going to be much of a debate, just a slagging off session.

This thread is just so facinating. Those quotes really shocked me and I have read the book. I probably skimmed over bits I didn't like however. If I thought that this was the essense og GF I think I would be as anti as you Anais. However I also see the other side of people who have used GF and found her methods work. In fact, although this debate is, at times, heated I think we all agree that we know what works for us and our kids, and however we came about that knowledge, via instincts or books or family, it doesn't matter.

The whole point of this thread was to be honest and wasn't to feel got at, so Anais, go for it, and FrankyMrShankly. I am just going to sit back and watch the fireworks!!

Just a reminder that this is meant to be a debate - not a personal slagging match. Nobody wants anyone to stomp off as a result.
Anais - agree with you that some of GF's advice seems to come from the dark ages.
You have to hope that her readers have enough sense to use the advice that works for them and ignore the more extreme bits - am sure that anyone posting here probably falls in to that category. But let's not forget that there are some very stupid people out there - the woman trying to feed her newborn baby crisps springs to mind.....

What woman ? What have I missed now ?

I denied my son milk for seven hours at 14 weeks. I felt I had little choice. I had spent days trying to persuade him to take the bottle and days trying to get DH to get him to take a bottle and it was very close to my going back to work (on 10 hour absences). I bf DS at 10 o'clock and then refused to feed him again apart from with a bottle which I kept offering. I didn't go anywhere or do anything all day. Spent most of the day pacing around the living room with upset/disgruntled DS offering a bottle at intervals. Eventually DH arrived home at 5 pm and took DS who then decided to take his first bottle from DH squatted on the floor in his suit. I felt awful doing this but I suppose there was food on offer really. I was cross with DH because I think he should have done this not me (a bit like torture to DS when the breast is so close to hand...) Just to illustrate that things are not always that clearcut.

Pupuce, so you're saying you and Bloss had a difficult babies - that's my point, too. I was wondering how many parents of easy babies (easy before GF) then decided to use the GF methods. Do you think you would have followed GF routines as closely, if at all, if your baby had been easy from the start?

Who out here has used GF routines for other reasons than having a first baby who was difficult?

Now - and this is not aimed at you Pupuce - I'll put my flameproof clothing on - I too found those GF quotes a bit shocking. I do realise they are out of context and extreme examples of Gina Fordism. People have also said here that any sensible parent would interpret them, not take them as gospel. But.... lingering doubt. If you have a book full of detailed instructions that you are meant to follow closely then shouldn't every sentence stand on up to scrutiny?

Call me naive, but I know nothing of GF and her techniques. I'm not a fan of "experts" and like to do it my way.

All I would like to say is that people have to do what's best for them, it's all down to personal choice.

I trust my own judgement and instincts (rightly or wrongly). I had a baby who woke every night until she came off the breast, and yes - and I got up to her every time - but we broke the habit in the end. In hindsight, it really is such a short time of baby's life (although it seems like an eternity when you are going through it) Anything for a quiet life me.

Re the quotes: I think she was insisting on formula because the baby had to be weaned off the breast (mum going back to work?) & wouldn't take a bottle.
That's just from (hazy) memory though, so don't quote me.
I nearly went bonkers trying to follow GF, until I relaxed a bit & bent the rules here & there. Still found the framework useful though & from v early on ds got used to (& loves) his bedtime routine of bath, milk & bed. He wasn't 'easy' though, & didn't really nap during the day. I also think I had (have?) a touch of PND.

ps Rhubarb, I love you.

Oh dear - is this still going on ?

OK - my dd was very very colicky and as officially described by the GP "a difficult baby". I had read GF whilst pg and thought her incredibly old-fashioned, rigid, harsh and bossy. However - dd was a very unhappy tiny baby and I turned to GF at about 8 weeks I think and tried a few of her things - not exactly following the rules per se - but trying a few of her suggestions here and there !

It was nothing short of miraculous ! My tiny fretful baby was overtired because I didn't know that she needed to cry a bit before she could sleep - so I was jiggling and bopping the poor thing when all she wanted to do was to be left somehere sift and warm to snooze ! Once we sussed that out - thanks to GF - everything improved.

I never followed the rules strictly but found that dd was more or less falling naturally into what GF described as her "routines" - for example - she dropped her 2pm feed the week before GF said she would. I have a lot of respect for GF and her experience, which is way superior to my own, but I can see that strict application of the rules could appear harsh - although I would not go so far as to say bullying.

Tell me if I'm wrong about this, but from what I've seen most first time parents, when they see their baby crying, will pick it up and feed/rock/jiggle/dance whatever it takes to get the baby to quieten down. That's what we did with ds and that's what I've seen most other friends do.

So the thing I found useful about GF was that she pointed out that sometimes a baby who cries is actually just tired and wants to go to sleep. (I do remember reading in her book that she would only allow babies to cry to sleep if she was sure that they were well fed, had clean nappy on etc etc). Call me a dope, but it was a real revelation to me that if my baby cried it did not necessarily mean he was hungry/miserable - it was only after reading the GF book that I had the courage to let my ds settle to sleep on his own, which meant hearing him cry for a few minutes first.

IMO, GF has made a lot of money from stating the obvious. But when you've got a newborn baby to look after, your brain has turned to mush, so you sometimes need someone to point out the bleeding obvious.

hmmm, not sure about joining the fray here - but just wanted to say Scatterbrain, yes! and Catt too, yes!! I would never describe myself as a 'GF mum' (its one of the many books I read) but establishing regular day time naps (by leaving ds to cry before sleeping) made ds (and me) 100% happier. All those vague suggestions from people/books about 'your baby will find his own routine' or 'when your baby is tired, she will sleep' were incredibly unhelpful. Some babies can't just fall asleep anywhere, they need the predictability and associations of a stable routine. And some become hopelessly overwired when overtired and just cry all the time - so getting them to sleep before they show signs of tiredness actually reduces crying.

I think there may be something in the idea that maintaining a routine is more important for some babies than others (don't like labelling them as 'difficult', but I'm sure some of you will know what I mean!!). Certainly, if ds had been happy being dragged around on my outings all day then obviously I would have continued doing it!! It is a pain being restricted to the house for his nap-times, but I do it because its not fair on him to behave as though he doesn't have needs.

Much more I could write, but I'll spare you.
For now

I didn't follow GF because I had a difficult baby, but didn't have a difficult baby because I followed GF IYSWIM
I started doing what gina said from the second of dd's birth. For the first two weeks dd was woken and fed every 3 hours from 7am-10pm. She was also fed whenever she cried. By the time we got to 2 weeks she was prety much not crying for food apart from during the night.

ok, this is where I really do part company with GF. I like a lot of what she says about sleep, and think the basic nap structure is a good starting point for most babies, but her views on bf I think are plain wrong. There has been soooo much research about the problems of scheduling bf, timing feeds, supplementary bottles etc, and most of what she advocates is directly in contradiction to the evidence about what promotes successful bf.

And prufrock, I can't relate at all to the idea of having to wake a newborn for 3 hourly feeds - lucky you - or to the fact that GF seems to think that 3 hourly is frequent feeding!! ds never slept for a 3 hour stretch day or night for at least 6 weeks, and in the first few days was more or less constantly feeding. I'm sure that trying to schedule feeding would have been a fast route to stopping bfeeding very quickly. (this is not to deny that SOME people might be able to successfully bf on a 3 hourly regime, just that on average it is likely to lead to more people giving up sooner).