GF: Love her or hate her? the Great Debate. Please leave all weapons at the door and NO stomping off, offended. OK?

[SoupDragon]

OK, to avoid the Great Debate cluttering up other threads where pro-GF mums are asking for help, I've started this one. It may have been done before...

If you read another thread and have nothing helpful but want to share your GF feelings, do it here!

I guess it could get heated here so please don't get offended and storm off in a huff as has happened elsewhere with other contentious issues - just avoid this thread

OK, for what it's worth, I have no problems with GF except for the fact that all babies are different so her rigid routine may not fit in with your baby. You should maybe see her routines as flexible - half an hour or an hour either way isn't going to make much difference is it? And I think that before 6 weeks is way too young to be messing with feeding routines, especially if you're breastfeeding. It can mess up your supply in theose important first weeks and I think this is why breastfeeding counsellors seem to hate her so much.

Right, I'm off to duck beneaththe parapet and let you get on with it!

Weren't the quotes from GF's book referring to parents who had called her in as they were completely 'at the end of their tether' & just didn't know what to do - I don't think quoting them out of context is particularly helpful. I am sure I can remember GF actually saying something like 'I really didn't want to join this family but I was begged to do so' (BTW anyone know how much she charges - just out of interest.)

Rhubarb - I do agree with your comment, well said. I think it is fairly common these days for children to be over-indulged and, quite frankly, spoilt - some parents seem to allow their child to be the 'centre of the universe' this is not healthy for either child or parent, how does the child cope when she or he gets to school and finds out that they are not the centre of the universe ..(and equally parents who can't seem to cope when their child goes to school!!) they have to jolly well muck in with everyone else. Having an only child I am obsessed with NOT spoiling him.

Those of you who are so anti-routines, I am genuinely interested, do you lead completely non-routine lives yourselves, don't you tend to get up in the morning & go to bed at roughly the same times, don't you eat three meals a day - or am I just boringly dull in my routine little life.

Great thread, keep it up!!

Sorry, but I can think of loads of things my mum said to me that are just as shocking! And don't some mothers take their own mother's advice just as literally? I have given my own contented baby book away to an expectant mother (oh what have I done!!!) so I cannot look up the quotes, but I am sure that reading the whole story in it's entirety will explain some of GF's reasoning.

Again I will reiterate, we are not asking that anyone here like GF or follow her, but to accept that some of us do, and with success. If some of you think you know better than GF then why not write a parenting book yourselves???

Well of course almost everyone has a routine of sort but my objections to GF are not based on routine as such, rather her approach to it. I fundamentally do not like the way she sees a young baby waking in the night as a ?problem? that needs to be solved through methods such as giving it boiled water with sugar. To me it is perfectly normal that young babies wake in the night and it is something that in the vast majority of cases, will gradually ease off. Notwithstanding that I worked a minimum 60 hour week in the city from when my son was 12 weeks old I never resented the opportunity to cuddle and breastfeed him in the wee small hours. I just cannot see why being woken once or twice in the night for a year or so of your life is such a big deal and is certainly not worth sticking to rigid nap / meal times in order to achieve. I myself made sure I just went to bed an hour earlier than would otherwise be the case. I do of course accept that in a minority of cases, sleep problems of some babies / children are such that more direct intervention is justified.

I don't check the board for a day and look at all the messages! Sorry I was not here to back you anais, franklymrshankly, am i slap worthy too?
those quotes were awful! if she was my nanny (not that i'd even contemplate the thought, i do the caring for my children!) i'd report her for the treatment she gives. Just cos she has experience in childcare does not mean she's knows best e.g. the nanny that recently, knowingly gave an allergic child a peanut butter sandwich!

"...I agreed to move in...on the one condition that the mother was prepared to allow controlled crying. I also insisted that Lucy be given a bottle of formula at 7pm instead of the breast..." does she not realise that supplementing a bf baby with formula could be dangerous?

"Robert cried for over three hours; the parents did not go in at all...the second night he cried again for three hours"
straight out an nspcc advert!

my theory is that if you give your baby what he needs all the time and make sure he's happy then you won't need to do this controlled crying as he will be secure that you are there for him always.
it feels like gf thinks children are some sort of pet not a human with feelings, mind you pets have feelings too! come to think of it you feed your dog when it's hungry don't you? you let them sleep when they are tired? mmm
your baby knows nothing but his parents, you are their world. Imagine how scary it would be thinking you'd been left alone by those you love to cry and cry. They don't understand that you'll (eventually) come back. As they don't understand that teddy is still there when you hide it behind your back.
Even disney knew what children need! GF is Katy nanna, i prefer Mary Poppins!
What's so wrong in spoiling your baby? i've never known love like that you feel for your child.

tracy
xx

by the way how do you manage a growth spurt when following gf? how do you increase the milk supply when you're not allowed to feed.

Er, tracyhay...as a mother who had to supplement her baby's bm with formula or he would have starved to death, could you please explain to me how feeding both bm & formula can be dangerous?

60 hrs a week from 12 weeks old!! I will restrain myself as i have strong views on being working mum. Mainly as i have been there and hated it. I worked 40 hrs + and evening classes (+ 20 hrs commuting), cried every morning (alot of the day) and hated my life. I missed my son soo much i was on antidepressants but felt i had to carry on cos other women managed. Thought there was something wrong with me for loving and needing my son so much. My childminder saw him more than I. What's the point in having a son if i'm not there to look after him and enjoy him! I quit, best thing (other than giving birth) i ever, ever did ! My son was happier for it too. My ex childminder has children that keep calling her mum! I'd be devastated. Sorry if i offend but my time working was the worst ever and i will not work again until my children are at school. I prefer to do the most important job, of bringing up the young members of society to the best of my ability!

Tracy

PS again if i offend any of you who work i'm sorry, i'm just not able to leave my babies.

I'd leave my babies at the drop of a hat right now...

I have a friend for whom going back to work full time saved her sanity. She is a far better mother for it too.

This is heated enough just about GF, let's not throw another match on the fire! Working mothers V SAHMs could fill an entire thread of it's own with heated debates and much stomping off.

Tut Tut TracyHay - not your job to criticise others remember !

People reveal a lot of themselves on here and it's not for others to criticise their choices.

Here is your mantra for the day -

Live and Let Live.
Different Strokes for Different Folks.
Deep Breath.

I have used controlled crying with both dd and ds, but not until they were 9 months. And the technique that I used called for going in after 2 mins, then 5 mins and then 7 etc. This was on the advice of my HV.
My understanding is that children have to be helped to learn to sleep through the night. Everyone wakes repeatedly through the night (adults as well) but we have to learn how to get back to sleep quickly. Both my children are now good sleepers, and become very miserable if they do not get 11 -12 hours a night. I never used GF, but I do feel that my children are more content, confident and happier if they know the routines that we live by, as a family. I find that children tend to like to know where they stand.

And I am confused, how can giving a bf babe a bottle be dangerous. Possibly bad for the BM supply, yes, but dangerous??

see this article
www.health-e-learning.com/breasted_web_articles/JustOneBottle/supplementation_of_the_breastfed.htm

one of the reasons i'm against mixed feeding. The other is that it's fast track to weaning. As soon as there is a problem people assume it's the bfing that causes it and give a bottle. That one bottle turns to 2 a day and pretty soon you have a bottlefed baby. I wouldn't give my son formula ever even if i was given a million to do so!!

Tracy

Tracyhay - if I didn't constantly hear friends moaning about how their babies are still waking up several times in the night when they're 1 year and older, and how they won't go to sleep unless they've got a nipple in their mouths, then I might believe that all a baby needs is love and that the best thing is to meet their needs all the time.

Most babies grow out of waking in the night or needing help to fall asleep, but some babies don't. When my dd was 4 months, she would wake every morning at around 5.30 looking for a feed. I'd give her a feed but she would suck a tiny amount and then wasn't interested. She wasn't hungry but she'd got into a habit of waking up for the hell of it. So one day when she woke up I didn't pick her up or feed her. She cried and it was horrible but from then on she didn't wake again at that time and therefore had a huge satisfying feed later on in the morning.

Call me cruel and evil but I feel I did the right thing for her and for me.

GF is a crutch for parents whose babies do not 'develop their own routines' as the health professionals tell you. It would be great if we never needed that kind of crutch but because life's not perfect sometimes we do need it.

again i didn't want to offend. I just don't understand how other women cope with leaving their babies. I felt so awful at leaving my son it made me ill.

again i didn't want to offend. I just don't understand how other women cope with leaving their babies. I felt so awful at leaving my son it made me ill.

Hey here's an idea for you TracyHay - why don't you write a book entitled: "How to alienate half the Mumsnet population in one easy step" because you've just hit working mums and bottle feeders a great big blow in two little messages and that's to add to your big whack at GF followers !

Do you have any concept of how you're coming across ?

Hey here's an idea for you TracyHay - why don't you write a book entitled: "How to alienate half the Mumsnet population in one easy step" because you've just hit working mums and bottle feeders a great big blow in two little messages and that's to add to your big whack at GF followers !

Do you have any concept of how you're coming across ?

I cope with "leaving my babies" just like your partner does no doubt. After all, someone has to provide financial support for a family.

Tracyhay,

So you wouldn't give your child a bottle of formula for a million. Wow, you should think yourself lucky that you had a choice. Ditto leaving them. Some people don't have a choice, finances or being driven out ouf their minds by fulltime motherhood makes the decision for them. And guess what, wanting going out to work does not make you a bad mother (and I am a full time mum). It must be so nice to feel so smug.

Tracyhay, you were obviously lucky & blessed with a good milk supply . I've told my tale of woe elsewhere on this site so I won't repeat it here. Suffice to say that you shouldn't jduge other people by your own abilities. Some facts for you:
Some mothers have to work in order to put on the table. (I'm lucky enough to work 3 days a week through choice).

Some women have insurmountable difficulties breastfeeding.

Some babies don't coo & chirrup endlessly when they're not sleeping loads or feeding contentedly - they scream & scream, won't feed, never sleep.

Incidentally, my 13mo ds is bright, bonny, loving & thriving.

Oh dear how can you all get so worked up about GF. Chill out we all have our own ways of getting through the day, and if it works for you go for it I say.

Not sure it is GF we're all getting worked up over anymore !

Agree Croppy. DH admits he found it odd/difficult after his 2 weeks paternity leave/holiday but he adapted as did I several weeks later.

TracyHay - when I went back to work should I have done mixed feeding for several months or gone straight to formula only?

I've never said do as i do or that anyone is a bad parent because of their methods/views. Just that i don't understand how others do what they do! I understand some women physically can't bf but i don't understand those who don't try. All i know is that i am happy with my children doing what nature intended, thats all. I should work, we struggle on one income but my children won't be young for long so i'm making the most of this preschool time before it's too late.
when i worked i went to a councellor cos i couldn't cope with the thought of letting someone else bring Tyler up. I thought there was something wrong with me that i couldn't manage to do what "half of mumsnetters" do. I could of managed p/t work i think, but couldn't get p/t work that paid enough to just cover the childcare let alone anything left over! I can't help the way i feel, even if i am in the minority. I'm sorry that i feel the way i do if it offends you. This is a board for debate is it not. I have my opinion and you have yours, thats the way the world is.

I don?t generally do this tracyhay but as I haven?t been around for a while I was curious as to where you are coming from. I see in another message you mention that since quitting your job, you have been widely quoted in the media on the basis that if other mothers hear your story, they won?t feel so bad at giving up their jobs which you imply is what most women actually really want. Many of us who work do so for a complex variety of reasons ranging from money, personal fulfillment, money, ambition, obligation to society or just plain enjoyment. Quite frankly, I don?t think many of us would put ourselves through the misery of 17 hour days for a mere £200 a month as you appeared to do.

So as a working mother who is extremely happy with her life, can I ask you to save your breath?. Working woman who need to do so on the basis of financial necessity have no choice - end of story. Those of us who do have a choice are sufficiently intelligent to have made a decision based on what we think is best for us and our families. You clearly think that women in the latter category just need to ?see the light? as it were. To me this is patronising in the extreme.

I've never said do as i do or that anyone is a bad parent because of their methods/views. Just that i don't understand how others do what they do! I understand some women physically can't bf but i don't understand those who don't try. All i know is that i am happy with my children doing what nature intended, thats all. I should work, we struggle on one income but my children won't be young for long so i'm making the most of this preschool time before it's too late.
when i worked i went to a councellor cos i couldn't cope with the thought of letting someone else bring Tyler up. I thought there was something wrong with me that i couldn't manage to do what "half of mumsnetters" do. I could of managed p/t work i think, but couldn't get p/t work that paid enough to just cover the childcare let alone anything left over! I can't help the way i feel, even if i am in the minority. I'm sorry that i feel the way i do if it offends you. This is a board for debate is it not. I have my opinion and you have yours, thats the way the world is.

I'm astounded that Rhubarb claims that parents who prefer to use a gentler approach to child rearing raise unpleasant children. I think I tend toward to the attachment parenting end of the spectrum yet no one ever said that any of my 4 children has behaved in the manner Rhubrb states. If anything, my children have been the sinned against, not the sinners. Having been parents for a long time (27 yrs) non-confrontational methods have suited us best when raising our family. That doesn't mean everything is sweetness and light, of course we have our moments but to imply I have let four thugs loose on the world is a bit much!

Lindy, as a family we fervent avoid routines as much as possible. DH has been fortunate not to work in a 9-5 job for most of his career and we both loath the timetables school imposes on us. I think DH's dislike of routine comes from his RAF officer father's strict regimes that were mercilessly imposed on the family when he was a child.