GF: Love her or hate her? the Great Debate. Please leave all weapons at the door and NO stomping off, offended. OK?

[SoupDragon]

OK, to avoid the Great Debate cluttering up other threads where pro-GF mums are asking for help, I've started this one. It may have been done before...

If you read another thread and have nothing helpful but want to share your GF feelings, do it here!

I guess it could get heated here so please don't get offended and storm off in a huff as has happened elsewhere with other contentious issues - just avoid this thread

OK, for what it's worth, I have no problems with GF except for the fact that all babies are different so her rigid routine may not fit in with your baby. You should maybe see her routines as flexible - half an hour or an hour either way isn't going to make much difference is it? And I think that before 6 weeks is way too young to be messing with feeding routines, especially if you're breastfeeding. It can mess up your supply in theose important first weeks and I think this is why breastfeeding counsellors seem to hate her so much.

Right, I'm off to duck beneaththe parapet and let you get on with it!

Hi SusanMT - my dd is nearly 11 months and still has a morning nap from 9.30 until 10am. We then go out and about to various things - as toddler group isn't open this week due to 'arf term, our morning activity today was going to be weighed at the health centre and then inflicting our noisy presence on the church coffee shop. Came home and had dinner and now she's asleep again for her 2 hour nap.
At the beginning, I did see GF as a list of rules I CHOSE to follow but now it just seems like common sense. We have 3 meals a day and a couple of daytime sleeps which are spaced out. She doesn't panic if dinner isn't exactly at 12.00 and if I know we are going to be back a bit late, I bung her a Rich Tea mid morning.
Hope my writing style doesn't make me sound over-confident - I am anything but !! However looking back to my undiagnosed PND days I can see how far I have come on and I do revel in being able to talk about my dd without having tears in my eyes !

Ghosty - Holby is FAB. Sam nearly married Rick but was still lusting after the other bloke (fit with earring) and left in the end. Rick's daughter Jess is now a nurse and there is much sexual tension 'twixt her and Steve. Ooooh I can't begin to tell you the full extent of the scandal-abra going on, perhaps the BBC website will have a run down of its full glory (oh yes, fit bloke is called Alex).

To all GF mums who read this thread
No doubt when your cherub is in bed
Sound asleep, peacefully dreaming
Of course you wouldn't leave him screaming.

You can't believe the things you read,
They're never mentioned in Gina's creed!
You're cruel, a control freak - you're obsessed!
The book will make you post natally depressed!

You can't go out, can't see a friend,
The book will drive you round the bend!
She doesn't have kids herself you see,
Otherwise why advise such cruelty?

Blackout curtains, a blackout blind?
It all seems such a fearful bind!
Routines are bad for babies and mothers,
I don't believe it can work for others!

Don't see yourself in this description?
Now you're upset - but there's a prescription,
Don't respond, don't rise to the bait!
Those comments are meant to irritate!

If mumsnet's getting a little boring,
What fun to see GF mums warring!
Just light the fuse and then retire
To watch the sparks fly ever higher!

It's all in the name of a good debate
But this subject will exasperate
All those who've seen it oft repeated!
Maybe this thread should be?

There's room here for all points of view
Even if everyone disagrees with you!
Don't let those comments drive you demented,
You know your baby is contented!

Ooh - you troll you !!! Who are you REALLY ??

Just trying to inject some humour!

Scummymummy methinks!!! Geez don't a lot of people have a bee in their bonnets about little old Gina Ford??? Personally I think she should receive a sainthood!

You know, it's whatever rocks your boat. I'm sure some of these mums who think Gina is cruel have some tricks up their sleeves that the rest of us might think is cruel. For instance at least Ms Ford does not advocate slapping or tying the bedroom door shut as some parenting gurus do. And not all of us have m-i-l's to go to for advice, or mothers for that fact. So when your baby's are not sleeping and you are asking mother for advice, we are turning to parenting books - is that so bad?

Controlled crying - cruel? Well personally I think it is cruel to deny parents any sleep, sending their anxiety levels soring because of the dreadful crying noises coming from the room next door. If any of you mothers have husbands or partners that have to drive 40/50 miles to work each day, you will know how imperitive it is that they are not tired whilst driving. Which is another reason to get baby to stop waking you up at all hours! Our experience of controlled crying lasted three days each time, and our dd never cried more than 1/2 an hour. I expect those parents who think this method is cruel have not experienced this problem, or maybe they would like to go to the sleep clinic thread and tell those poor suffering mothers that they are all being cruel!

It's just a case here of my way is best and yours is rubbish - which is very childish really and there is no need. Your way might be best for your child, but try to tell me what to do with my child and you might feel the sharpness of my tongue! (Is that a weapon?)

Oh and our holiday was lovely thanks Janh, as you can tell I feel very rested!

It's demented isn't it - I picked up teh clue in that last verse - go on demented - admit it (I think it's v. clever)

trolls, trolls everywhere!

Lindy, my 2nd child slept anywhere, and beleive me i could not beleieve my luck as dd was a complete nightmare and would only sleep after lots of room pacing and rocking!

I dunno Prufrock, Scummymummy has been known to have quite a poetic turn from time to time.

Rhubarb agree with you about the lack of sleep and husbands having to drive etc - my DH sometimes does a couple of hundred miles a day and when DS was small used to spend his lunch break asleep in a lay-by. When I returned to work I was still breast feeding 4/5 times a night and had a 25 mile commute (each way) so its mothers as well as fathers.

Furthermore once DS started sleeping reasonably at night he was a much more contented baby (not in a GF sense because I hadn't read the book!).

SusanMT don't think the criticism was directed at you. Your posts have seemed (to me at least) to be fairly well balanced/argued despite your obviously strong views. (IMO).

Rhubarb - I agree with you re the need for c crying on occasion - and let's not forget it's not just for the parents that you are being 'cruel to be kind' with that approach - a baby who has learned (if need be) to sleep well is a happy baby - a tired baby is NOT a happy baby. I would rather dd cry for a short period if need be during a controlled crying session ( I ahd to do it once - as with Rhubarb it was very short and very successful) in order to be the happy bunny all day that she is when she has slept well and is not tired.

I'm back again !

Firstly - glad at least a few of you agree with me !

Secondly - glad you like my name Droile - I took it from The Smith's song of the same name which if I recall the lyrics go something like "Frankly Mr Shankly you're a sickening pain in the bum" - because I felt some people were being exactly that !

Thirdly - the people in question have yet to make a show on this thread today - could they possibly (please God) have had their last words and gone away ?

Nice poem whoever you are but my money's on scummy too. And Prufrock, no I don't have any news, thanks for asking but even if I was pregnant I wouldn't be interested in Gina Ford as I think she's wrong (JOKE!!!!)

Franklymrshankley are you a proper troll or a regular who has changed nickname or just a newcomer? Am interested. Think I know who you are referring to though....

to the poet

Poem not by me! Have just logged on... Like it though

Just a little thought, it seems to me we're leaving the baby lagging behind.

I firmly believe that some babies are born more 'difficult' than others. Some just do sleep and feed better. I looked with dread at some of my friends babies - I don't know how I would have coped with them. I was blessed with easy babies - cursed with less easy toddlers though! (see numerous messages of mine on the latter.)

I did not need to read up on routines. Mine quickly found their own, especially son number one. If I had not been so fortunate, I might have hot footed it to the bookshop for a copy of the CLBB.

I wonder how many`mothers of 'easy' babies went the GF route (by easy I mean before GF was introduced). Or do most GF people believe they had 'difficult' babies to begin with? Is the great divide really to do with what sort of baby you have?

I think you're onto something tigermoth. a friend had a very colicky baby who wouldn't even stop crying when picked up, which would always comfort dd. but I think the other half of the equation - the mother's temperament - is just as important. if you're completely anal about stuff depending on which way your child reacts and how you 'parent' you could become 'leave to scream' (& they do!) or constantly picking up a baby who might settle if you left him/her for a few moments. if you're a more relaxed parent and your baby is easy, then that's probably the most successful recipe!

It wiznae me! Puts things into perspective and gave me a laugh mind you!!!

Firstly - excellent poem - and I'm not a GF mum.
Secondly, I have used controlled crying on my son a number of times in the two and a half years he's been in existence. Probably from about the age of one as I bf till then (do I get a medal?) and didn't have any trouble getting him off to sleep as he'd fall asleep on the boob while I watched Buffy The Vampire Slayer re-runs - (those were the days) and then a couple of times since when he's got in to an "I don't want to go to bed even though its 10.30" rut. (take that medal away)
Each time the end result has been a much happier child who goes to bed without it becoming a battle and gets a decent nights sleep PLUS much happier parents who get a few hours to themselves before the monotony of it all starts again. What's more, because my poor little deprived mite was beaten into submission over this he also cottoned on that it was ok to wake up in the night and then roll over and go back to sleep. The very few times I have ever had to get up in the night to him have been due to illness or a nightmare. So no, I don't think I've bullied my child - but then again maybe he's just been bullied so much that he's actually become the child in the NSPCC campaign who doesn't cry because he knows nobody will come. Whatever - either way he seems pretty darn happy to me. There I go again, trusting my instincts.... and me an older mum and all.

Like your style Willow2. I think you're right about the occasional CC - it has to be done. Don't know who Frankly is - Bozza, I know she didn't mean me, I was just being daft, but thanks.

Ooooh, sorry to disappoint you all, but I'm still here. And well aware that FranklyMrShankly's comments were meant for me.

Apparently, I am: patronising,a troll, a twenty-something know it all,sanctimonious, a bully....anyone want to add any more??? Why do I come here? (No, really, why DO I come here???)

Rhubarb: "Controlled crying - cruel? Well personally I think it is cruel to deny parents any sleep"

Can I just remind you that this is a BABY we are talking about here. If you wanted a perfectly behaved little puppet, maybe you should have brought one of those dolls with an off-switch. Babies are not designed to be convenient. You CHOSE to have the child, he did not choose to be born.

Does anyone else think we are being too soft on our kids these days? GF seems to come under criticism because she is strict and advocates routine, which actually I wholly agree with. Yes I know you cannot be too strict with a little baby, but a routine is kind for both baby and parents. These mothers who take their babies into bed with them every night until they're about 9, never raise their voices, leap to attention at the slightest whimper, etc,etc are probably the same mothers who watch placidly at toddler groups going "No, Jonny don't do that" whilst little Jonny is ripping the hair out of some poor girl who happened to get in his way. Frankly I've seen far too many placid mothers who behave this way (and dads too to be honest). Their kids get away with murder and it is us stricter mums who are left to drag their children off our child, mop up the tears and actually discipline their children for them! It would be all very well to have your children in bed with you as 'nature intended' (not bloody likely or there would be far less children in the world!), see to it's every need and whimper and never have to raise your voice if every child were born an angel. But children do need discipline from an early age, they need rules and guidelines if they are to grow up with respect not only for themselves but for other people too. And I'm not talking smacking here, or screaming at them, just common-sense discipline which I think is what GF teaches.

Or am I going to be hounded by horrified earth mothers now who will insist that their children are perfect angels in every way?

By the way, no offence meant to anyone who does take their kids into bed with them, I meant those examples to apply to mothers who do ALL of them, not just one!

And just to reply to Anais, I do mean babies to refer to those over 6 months, not newborns. When do you teach them to sleep through the night? When they are 7 years old as my sister has done with hers? You need to draw the line somewhere and depriving parents of sleep is the worst thing you can do to a child as they do not get the attention or stimulation during the daytime that they deserve. No-one is having a go at you, just everyone voicing their opinions, maybe you should just agree to differ?

I know what you mean ks, it's getting scary. isn't it? Compelling though. I wish there really was a foolproof way to get them to sleep through.