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Original poster

Is this a form of rape?

45 replies

notsure · 15/08/2004 10:31

I am sorry if I have put this is the wrong thread, but I am not too sure of where to put it.

Is this situation a form of rape? The woman is asleep and the man takes advantage of her. The woman knows the man, but is not interested in him or wanting a relationship. She woke up, and was in shock. The man said he had thought she was awake.

Sorry if it is too vague, but I would really appreciate people's opinions.

OP posts:
wobblyknicks · 15/08/2004 10:33

Its hard to be accurate without more details but from what you've said it sounds like yes, it definitely is.

allthegirls · 15/08/2004 10:34

I would say that it is definetly rape. Was the person who was raped drunk or knowingly taken any drugs?

charliecat · 15/08/2004 10:38

Yes it is.

WideWebWitch · 15/08/2004 10:39

Yes, she can't give consent if she's asleep ffs! Sex without consent is rape.

Original poster
notsure · 15/08/2004 10:40

no she wasnt drunk

OP posts:
WideWebWitch · 15/08/2004 10:43

If she was drunk and didn't consent it's still rape. Sex without consent is rape. Without a doubt.

hercules · 15/08/2004 10:43

Rape!

maomao · 15/08/2004 10:43

Agree wholeheartedly with www

MummyToSteven · 15/08/2004 10:47

Agree with www. Yes I would definitely say it was rape. I would say to the woman that if she was reporting this incident to the police, to not wash/shower if at all possible (to preserve forensic evidence) and also to contact a rape crisis line number to obtain support from people who have been through it. I would also say to the woman that she should bear in mind that if she was examined by a police doctor, the sort of info as to previous sexual history etc she may give the police doctor may become available to the Defendant.

joanneg · 15/08/2004 10:48

It is very difficult to mistake a woman not wanting sex for one that does. Come on! This guy must have known she was asleep. Usually before sex there is a build up and it is clear that both parties want sex.
This sounds like this mans justification because he knows that he has done wrong. This is rape and an unfair way of trying to make the woman in the situation feel like he did nothing wrong.

StripyMouse · 15/08/2004 10:52

It is a matter of consent or perceived consent. Having sex/trying to have sex with someone who is actively rejecting the advances is clearly wrong. Taking advantage of someone who is unable to give or refuse consent (ie. asleep, drunk, drugged) is also clearly wrong - esp. if choosing the moment when the person is most vulnerable and unable to act clearly is also very worng.
However, follow this argument through for a happily married couple and one partner takes advantage of a sleepy moment early in the morning and the same facts are not so easy to apply or so sinister.
It depends on the circumstances, how far he got, exactly what went on beforehand - perceived prior consent and any build up, the couples past relationship, what happened when she did finally wake up fully. How realistic an "excuse" is it that he thought she was awake - sounds dodgy to me. From the little you have said, it could range from two very good friends where one misreads the situation and their long standing closeness for much more and it all going horribly wrong to the mortification of both to being a calculated rape of a friend where they have taken a callous advantage of trust built up over time.
Whatever it is, you need to make sure it is clear in your own mind and how you are going to preceed from here. Sounds like you need to think it through and ideally talk it through in more detail with someone you trust or with a professional. Don?t bury it and ignore it or it could haunt you.

hercules · 15/08/2004 10:53

Most rapes are commited by someone you know.

StripyMouse · 15/08/2004 11:05

It is not always so black and white.
At uni I lived in a house of 8 of us - 4 girls and 4 boys. Only one pair were a couple. My closest friend spent a lot of time with one of the lads as they both studied the same subject. In the third year we all had a big leaving party and as often happened all bunked in diff. beds - platonically. She woke up to find that he was sitting on top of her taking advantage of her. She was horrified, distraught and rushed into my room not knowing how to handle the situation.
He was equaly distraught and not knowing what had gone on. He explained that they both went to bed drunk as usual, she climbed in with him and kept telling him how much she loved him and cuddling him. Early hours, both drunk still, he finally plucks up the courage to tell her the same and they start on a night of passion, she is happily mumbling away and seems quite content, eyes closed. She suddenly seems to wake up and jumps up horrified, runs out of the room. He totally misread the situation and she took a long time to see what was happening as she was only semiconscious and unable to clarify and explain her position to him. If you knew them both you would never ever say that he had tried to rape her or that she was leading him on. It was two friends that got themselves in a real sexual mess that ruined their longstanding friendship. She did not give her consent and he did try to sleep with her but there really was more to it than that. That is why I would say that sometimes it is not cut and dried and you do need all the facts.
If she is in any doubt then she needs to speak to the police.

smellymelly · 15/08/2004 11:05

Very well put, Stripymouse.

smellymelly · 15/08/2004 11:06

Crossed posts, I think your 1st post explains it very well.

starlit · 15/08/2004 11:16

someone i know was with her partner for about 2 years. they had a baby who was about 6 months old. She wanted to end the relationship for months, and was making him sleep on the sofa, or she would sleep on the sofa. One night, when he was suppose to sleep on the sofa, she woke up and he was on top of her. She kicked him off in horror, and ran downstairs not knowing what to do. He too said he thought she was awake. This was last year some time, and she's only just recently told me as she hasnt told anyone about it.

StripyMouse · 15/08/2004 11:20

Thanks smellymelly I was worried that everyone would be horrified at my liberal approach. Hope I didn?t offend anyone by suggesting that sometimes it is no one?s fault as I know for many this type of issue is black and white.

I just can?t help thinking about Karen and how easy it would have been for her to call the police and go down the road that MummyToSteven was talking about. God knows what would have happened to them both thenm when really they just needed to get together, shout, cry, apologise, clear the air, be honest, deal with it and get on with life a little wiser and alittle bit more socially aware. I wonder where she is now? I havent spoken to her for nearly ten years (didn?t fall out just lost touch)

jampot · 15/08/2004 11:22

Call me stupid if you like but I fail to see how a man (or woman) can embark on intercourse with someone they think is awake but in fact is asleep!! IMO a poor excuse for taking advantage.

sassy · 15/08/2004 11:26

The first ever (i think) date-rape conviction involved a similar situation to the one you seem to be describing, notsure. A guy called something like Angus Diggle invited a woman friend to stay over on his sofa after they had been to a ball. She woke up in the night to find him naked and having sex with her. She went to the police and he was eventually convicted.
If the situation you describe is as non-consenual as this one, then in law it is rape. However would be very difficult to prove and very traumatic for the woman to go through legal process. She may do all this and still not get a conviction.
A difficult decision to make IMO. Hope the advice you get here helps clarify things.

regulargirl · 15/08/2004 11:41

Message withdrawn

glitterfairy · 15/08/2004 11:44

I am a little confused. If she didnt want a realationship why were they in the same bed or were they? I dont understand?

Obviously non consenting sex is always rape whatevere the circumstances.

Original poster
notsure · 15/08/2004 11:49

he was staying at her apartment, as her room mate invited him to stay over and sleep on their couch as he was having problems with his girlfriend. they're good friends, or at least they were

OP posts:
Tinker · 15/08/2004 11:50

Think StripyMouse's post is very good, particularly the non black and white issue of 'perceived prior consent'.

Beetroot · 15/08/2004 11:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

glitterfairy · 15/08/2004 11:53

ok then its rape.