SAHMs...would you encourage your daughters to SAHM or WOHM ?

[mozhe]

I ask out of genuine interest....people have often said to me that I became a committed WOHM because I had such a strong model in my own mother....and I would certainly be very disappointed if one of my own daughters chose to be a SAHM.
SAHMs what do you think ? And why ?

I think there are significant disadvantages to part time work, yes and I think it's better for women if they do work full time to secure the equal rights at last we have. My children know my feminist views. I also think they shouldn't lie and they shoudl if possible stay fit. But just because I have those views doesn't mean I'm going to be locking them up at home until they emerge as clones of me. I'm not like some parents in teh UK who lock up their daughters at 16 until they agree to marry the chosen man or whatever.

I am certainly much more likely to say to my children of all sexes that work is great and fun and can be massively life enhancing if you pick the right career and that housework is boring. I am not going to go round saying how much fun I find looking after under 5s and keeping house because it is really dull but if they choose to do that, just like when my sister was in a cult or if a child decides to become a nun etc you in general if you love them respect their choices and continue to love them.

So if your daughter came to you and said: 'Mum, I actually like looking after my small children, and would rather it was me who looked after them than someone else, therefore, as fun as my career is, I might actually put it on hold or not commit so much time to it because I'd rather be with my little ones...etc etc...' you would support her?
I hope so, Xenia, because you have been very hostile towards other women on this site who have made that choice.

Def agree Xenia - much more important than whether or not a mother chooses to work or stay at home is allowing yourself the option of having a child if possible (I would be very sad for my DD if she missed the opportunity through work or other choices and then later regretted it).

Fwiw I think the media personality in question did have a surrogate child in the form of her dh - her self indulgant faux girly wedding column in the Grauniad made me want to vomit almost as much as Julie Burchills did - grrrr.

I do not wish the unhappiness of a failed marriage on her but she will get lots of column inches and a book deal out of it. She is totally responsible for her choices we cannot have it both ways freedom to choose comes with responsibilities (I am so holy than thou - we need a 'polishing halo' emoticon)...

I don't think Xenia has been actually hostile to sahm in her comments (though I frequently have disagreed with her postings) I do think she has made dismissive and belittling comments in a 'you don't know what you are doing you poor unreconstructed woman slave' way. That shows a lack of empathy perhaps?

bigmouth - see 'Why do people work part time?' in the 'Going back to work' forum.

I'm sorry, but on that thread (as on countless others) Xenia has made her opinions on anyone who doesn't juggle 'looking after' their 6 kids with a 12 hour day abundantly clear.

I just find it incredibly hard to see how Xenia would be so 'right -on PC' with her kids while she goes around lambasting every other women on the face of the earth for not doing exactly as she does.

(And saying 'its just my opinion' is not a suitable disclaimer for continually rubbishing other peope's lifestyles in the most vile and patronising way).

Maybe I have missed the hostile comments - I have seen plenty of postings that I disagree with and some that I don't - I feel that she thinks sahm are misguided and are not feminist enough etc. and her distaste comes across very clearly but that isn't the same as hostile but maybe I am being too forgiving and maternal in a floaty passive sahm way???

I am a sahm btw

I am/will encourage my dd to be whatever she wants to be.

As long as my dd thought deeply about her choice and the reasons for it I would not be disappointed in ANY of her life choices!!

Why are so many SAHM v WOHM threads?
Why is it important to make judgements on peoples choices?

I'm a SAHM I don?t care if you are a SAHM or WOHM if you are a good mum fantastic! But you are the only one able to make that judgement at these early stages. Your kid(s) are bound to tell you what they thought about things when they come of age.

My mother was an extremely hardworking working woman and a great role model. I have decided to stay home for a few years and also be a strong role model for my dd. FYI going to work isn?t the only way to prove that you are a strong individual and suitable role model!

Usually I strongly disagree with Xenia but here I agree. I do no see any hostile comments here or even any judgements. Nobody is belittling or condemning SAHMs, just pointing out that there may be long-term disadvantages to this for many women. There's really no need to be so defensive or go on the attack. If being a SAHM works for you and you've weighed up the pros and cons and made provision for changing circumstances then that's fine. If you haven't then do it. I can't see why anyone would object to young women being advised about pros and cons of any situation and nobody is in a position to make judgements about what's right for someone else's daughter as regards motherhood any more than they can about a gap year, doing A Levels, career etc. Just give advice and offer opinions.

If my daughters came to me and said 'Mum, I actually like looking after my small children, and would rather it was me who looked after them than someone else, therefore, as fun as my career is, I might actually put it on hold or not commit so much time to it because I'd rather be with my little ones...etc etc...' I would say fine but ...

how does your partner feel about supporting the family financially? Will he have to work extra hours to compensate for your loss of earnings? If so, are you aware that losing quality time with him might be damaging for all of you? Are you confident that you will be able to return to paid work if and when you wish to? Do you think you'll be happy staying at home? Have you got friends to support you and who also have families (because I may not be in a position to help since I may still be working myself)? Have you made provision for your pension, critical illness, your kids' schools etc?

If she'd thought about all of the issues above and still wanted and felt able to be a SAHM then great.

Yes, it's interesting that extreme defensiveness that some SAHMs display on these threads....I wonder about it because don't seem to do it in the same way..When in fact in RL SAhms often say really awful thigs like ' I don't really do anything I'm just home with the kids,'.I always make a point of asking them why they say such self deprecating things.

Sorry....meant to say WOHMs aren't any where near as defensive or hostile...

WOHM

Dads can stay at home too...

What you have just stated bawc is rather belittling - that sahm either haven't given the issues you outline any thought and have gone ahead in a silly frivolous manner (more fool them) or they have it all covered and therefore have your blessing. A tad patronising and rather unrealistic in my opinion any child sat down by their mother and lectured like that would be put out that their own mum would have so little faith in their ability to make choices that are good for them - I don't think sahm and wohm should be at war and I don't feel belittled by other peoples comments against either - mainly bemused that we have so much time to dig at each other and ashamed that we can't channel this energy into something more positive.

Yes, it is weird because if someone said to me, 'You're stupid for becoming a teacher,' I'd be really annoyed but if someone said to me, 'Do you realize that teaching is badly paid and undervalued and you'll have loads of marking,' I'd say, 'That's all true but I still love it.' Don't know why SAHMs can't just say, 'You're right that I've made no provision for my pension so I'm just keeping my fingers crossed and sometimes I do feel undervalued but most of the time I love what I do and I wouldn't have it another way'.

I've raised the issue about dads too. I think dads are just as important to childcare as mums but both create and are victims of the attitudes which keep them out of the home and in the workplace.

I'd be interested to know how many mums would take the, 'Whatever makes you happy,' approach if their sons told them now that they weren't really interested in developing their career because ultimately they wanted to be at home with their children.

Big mouth, I've said several times on this thread, that I think the SAHMs on Mumsnet and, obviously on this thread, have very clearly made their choices after careful consideration which is good. Unfortunately, as I've also said, they are not represenative of SAHMs in general who are very often SAHMs out of financial necessity rather than choice (so much for 'happiness'!). Most of the SAHMs on Mumsnet (at least the ones who are vocal) are well-qualified and experienced and have had successful careers which they have been able and willing to leave and will be able to return to should they need to. They also often have comfortably off (and in some notable cases fantastically rich) partners who are able and willing to support them financially (although in at least 1 case I can think of on Mumsnet, able but not willing). This is not the reality for the majority of SAHMs.

I do not see how raising these very important issues (financial welfare, mental health etc) is patronising. I think society has a responsibiltiy to ensure that women (and men) receive the advice they need to make informed decisions about having children and childcare. Sadly, many women do not receive such advice and if women take the 'whatever makes you happy' appoach without discussing these issues with their daughters then there will be many unhappy mothers in a few years time. As I've said although many mums feel that it's abolutely right to give up their work to look after kids a huge percentage of them will be divorced, forced to care for a sick partner etc and wish they HAD received proper advice and made better provision for such eventualities.

My brother is a sahd and an artist - a bit of a cheat as he can do some work while his daughter is playing on the beach (though he has to be careful he doesn't eat his oils).

They live in a tiny place and his partner comes home at lunchtime as do the 2 older girls at school. So the work/ home balance is good for both. If my son wanted to stay at home for his young children and his partner wanted to work then I would be supportive of course and happy that I had raised a son for whom family commitments and gender equality counted

While many women take the view that 'it'll never happen to me', sadly I meet women all the time and there are women (even on Mumsnet) who it does happen to. Excuse me if I feel sorry for them. Excuse me if I wish there was more general awareness of the pitfalls of SAHMumdom.

Actually I think my daughters more than most know what being around small children is like as there's a 13 year age gap between the oldest and the twins so she's seen a lot of real parenting. She's brilliant with children and says she's not sure she wants any but if she does only in her 30s. Her sister loves babies so I'd expect she although younger might have them sooner. Their brother is very good with the twins - in many ways he's their father in practice which is not the experience most 18 year old boys have but it's done him no harm.

What I fear more for my own children is that we divorced 4 years ago. That's a much more significant thing than whether your mother works or not. I want them to know that people can be happily married and yet the example they have had here has been otherwise.

I am sorry not to be clearer in what I meant was patronising - not that the issues of economic dependence are not important - and I take on board that those of us with time to waste on MN are probably privileged in many ways - but that you would have a scenario with a daughter requiring you sat her down and pointed out all the pitfalls of a choice to stay at home - life rarely works like that - I didn't come to my decision in one moment - it was a gradual realisation that I would be handing my notice in rather than returning to work, that I would be having another child soon after the first, leaving London where my career was based etc. etc. I just am empathising with an imaginary daughter having to put up with a nagging mother whilst going through these difficult life transforming processes... my mum is bad enough nagging me on potty training if she started pointing out what I should be doing to plan for my dotage I would probably have to throttle her!!

I would hope that my daughter would
a) be allowed to decide whether she wanted children or not without being castigated for whichever decision she makes and
b) makes whichever choice suits her and her partner best, again without anyone feeling they have the right to pass judgement and
c) makes sure that any decision to have a child is fully discussed with the father and that he realises that he might have to make a choice between work and childcare too; ie that it won't all be down to her

Bigmouth, I think you're taking me a bit too literally. TBH the idea of my sitting my dds down and lecturing them is really quite entertaining. And even if we did have a 'big talk' if you read my post again you'll see that this would take the form of a discussion rather than a lecture. In fact all I did in my post was list a number of questions. I did not suggest what I would tell my daughter she should do. Good parenting is not about saving important information or advice (like the birds and bees talk or dieatary advice or whatever) and having a big sit down cringe making conversation. It's about always communicating and offering models and examples. Although my dds are very little we discuss things all the time as a matter of course. They know loads about my job and have been into my work many times. They're friendly with all my colleagues and dps. They know why we work and what we do at work. They also understand why and how we parent them and they know how much we love them and prioritise their needs. Although dp and I both do paid work we also manage to pick them up from the school gates, make their packed lunches and help with homework. They do not yet see a conflict between raising a family and undertaking paid work which benefits others' families. As they get older they will continue to learn that not everybody has a family like ours and that not every job is as flexible as teaching and we'll discuss this. They assume that when they grow up they will get jobs and they assume that they will have babies although I've certainly never told them that they should. They have very few gender stereotypes (except the pink thing) and assume that men and women take equal roles in both paid work and child rearing and domestic work. They do not understand the world of finance but I will teach them about this as and when it comes up just as I handle every other issue. I think it's shocking that we educate kids about drug abuse and career options but we don't teach them about money in this country. I hope that I am raising my kids to be responsible, caring and hard-working and by the time they come to have kids I'm sure they'll have made the decision about what is right for them by themselves but with their eyes fully open to all of the advantages and disadvantages of being a SAHM or a WOHM.

love your posts on this thread, b&wc.