Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Other subjects
Original poster

what has feminism ever done for us?

390 replies

SenoraPostrophe · 09/04/2007 20:41

right girls, it's timne for a proper debate which isn';t about blardy weaning.

the motion is this:

feminism has not really acheived anything. women got the vote and were accepted in the workplace because of the world wars and not because of reason. Later, we accepted careers, but ended up neither having our cake nor eating it what with all the housework and childcare we were doing. and male hegemony still reigns supreme.

discuss.

OP posts:
tribpot · 09/04/2007 22:31

MT, I feel obliged to point out - with feminist love - that my username is tribpot and not tribot (like you are the first person to make that mistake - not).

I dispute the notion of paula's that the rich do not conspire against the weak. If I still had my textbooks I would quote ad infinitum, but let's just say it is in the interest of those who make money by exploiting others to ensure that such exploitation continues. I got a Sociology A-Level me, I know the difference between a Marxist feminist and a feminist Marxist (apparently).

I also dispute that women have been conspired against because they are weaker. Naturally my view of pre-history is coloured by authors like Marion Zimmer Bradley et al which tell of a (mythical?) past in which women's power was stripped from them by generations of men, it must be true and not just a ruse to sell books. I think in an increasingly capitalist world our inability to view other people (read: other people's children) as mere machines is both our strength and our weakness.

Btw, the idea of the suffragettes not supporting a working class vote? I've never heard that - produce your evidence!

Heathcliffscathy · 09/04/2007 22:32

senora come to my local asda....whoops...they're mostly immigrants...although you're right women outweigh men hugely.

oppression

power.

people with power and money wanting to keep power and money.

i'm not being funny or anything but this is why when i heard a programme about open source computing it made me want to whoop for joy. computer programmes that are made transparent in order that you can use them for free and modify them to make them better....co-operation in order to progress...what a simple and truly truly wonderful idea.

makes me want to weep thinking about it....in hope.

monkeytrousers · 09/04/2007 22:32

I like to think of myself as being at the cutting edge of contemporaty feminism - Darwinian feminism

monkeytrousers · 09/04/2007 22:33

opps sorry tribpot

Original poster
SenoraPostrophe · 09/04/2007 22:34

v good point, ecatlm. I didn't mean to suggest femism was a bygone thing (hence use of present perfect tense, not past tense).

But saying that feminism can't fully succeed without socialism is not the same as blaming one for the failure of the other is it?

OP posts:
tribpot · 09/04/2007 22:34

All your arguments are undercut by your failure to get my username right, MT

monkeytrousers · 09/04/2007 22:34

Not weaker in what way? - we are less physically powerful than men on average

Heathcliffscathy · 09/04/2007 22:35

I am adoring how up itself but sincere this thread is.

fabulous senora.

i'm expecting it every monday you know.

UCM · 09/04/2007 22:35

I have not read the entire thread, but think that man & woman will only become equal when ALL children HAVE to go into a central govt nursery whilst ALL parents work.

Someone correct if I am wrong but wasn't this what labour was all about to start with.

monkeytrousers · 09/04/2007 22:36

Doh!

monkeytrousers · 09/04/2007 22:37

OMG, I wouldn't want my baby to go into any nursery. I am equal staying at home and caring for them for the first year or more!

Original poster
SenoraPostrophe · 09/04/2007 22:38

open source - I do see what you mean, but another way of looking at it is that a thousand people add their own bits to a system and you end up with....a system that feels like it was hacked together by a thousand people without talking to each other much.

I love the idea of open source, but it only really works in small apps. the big ones (like linux, freebsd) only work when some company (like redhat or apple) get some programmers to make the thing coherent.

OP posts:
tribpot · 09/04/2007 22:39

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

UCM · 09/04/2007 22:39

I didn't say I agreed with it MT, but wasn't this what feminism (sp) was about, us being equal to men.

monkeytrousers · 09/04/2007 22:40

and women want to be able to stay home and care for their children without society punishing them for it

Heathcliffscathy · 09/04/2007 22:40

but senora thats ok isn't it? that there is co-operation and sharing with control and transparency??

Heathcliffscathy · 09/04/2007 22:40

and some boundaries?

Original poster
SenoraPostrophe · 09/04/2007 22:40

and lol at "up itself but sincere".

how true.

I'll spend all week thinking up next week's topic now.

OP posts:
monkeytrousers · 09/04/2007 22:41

It was in the 70s UCM. It was an idea. Feminism at that time - and much of it today, attempts to disqualify any difference in between the sexes, to say gender is a cultural construct, which just isn't true.

UCM · 09/04/2007 22:42

Because if there are bits that say because we are women, then we can't do this/that, then it isn't equal. Very simplistic I know, but bow to others knowledge on this.

And if it was about getting women recognised in the workplace. Thats good, it's happened. Now there are tons of kids in nursery/childminders. Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

Heathcliffscathy · 09/04/2007 22:43

it is indeed bolleaux

one sex can carry babies. abd have a good idea who the father is. big difference

monkeytrousers · 09/04/2007 22:44

yes Tribpot, but without those laws we'd be farked. Rape was a recognised part of courtship until quite recently.

EnormousChangesAtTheLastMinute · 09/04/2007 22:46

wasn't dissing your choice of tenses SP, v fond of present perfect myself still have bee in my bonnet about news bulletins starting to use past perfect. why on earth did it change and who decided on it? crap decision in my book. but again, 'nother thread.

on adverts, agree hate 'useless male' stereotype as much as 'ditzy women' but advertising is fucked in the head. it's not so long ago the 'two cunts in a kitchen' was common parlance and as for black people being seen actually eating or drinking the product... remember all those 'tropical paradise' ads?! and the knots lilt ads used to get themselves in. as far as i can make out advertisers live in a through the looking glass world (er someone thought the sheilas wheels ad was good?!)

and there are plenty of men scanning beans in my local sainsburys. er, slight confession here, i am outing my prejudice. gulp. i avoid the men cos i think they're slower. i know, i know...

so yes, equal, but different!

UCM · 09/04/2007 22:46

Ok posted my last one before reading your last one.

But, and I am speaking hypothetically here. If women are to be considered equal in the workplace, then why should they be given more consideration than men. I am asking this as a woman in a management team of 10. I am the only woman. I am given more opportunities to take a day off, the company have to adhere to very strict rules on this.

monkeytrousers · 09/04/2007 22:49

what if though, to play devils advocate subtle biological differences in brains made it obvious that men were better suited to be computer programmers whilst women were better suited to be office managers? Leaving aside the few that would buck the trend and get in both on merit anyway - on average this was scientifcally proven. Nobody is prohibited from doing anything but is is known that these differences exist. Is there any essential inequality in this scenareo?

Swipe left for the next trending thread