what has feminism ever done for us?

[SenoraPostrophe]

right girls, it's timne for a proper debate which isn';t about blardy weaning.

the motion is this:

feminism has not really acheived anything. women got the vote and were accepted in the workplace because of the world wars and not because of reason. Later, we accepted careers, but ended up neither having our cake nor eating it what with all the housework and childcare we were doing. and male hegemony still reigns supreme.

discuss.

Soph, I?m not saying that men haven't exploited women in the past and will again in the future. Before I started studying this I accepted (on faith, it seems) the feminist idea that patriarchy was constructed by men to explicitly oppress women, but the evidence I've seen doesn't bare this up. Patriarchy is actually there for men to oppress other men, and it wasn't constructed it evolved. Women don't fair well in it, I accept, especially when they have babies. But two and two don?t make five. Feminism has just been wrong on this and it can only progress and become relevant if and when it understands this fact.

Do we think that the rich (and therefore powerful) may conspire against the poor (and therefore weak)? Isn't this an extension of the same thing? (Am channeling 'theories of underdevelopment' here from my Sociology A-Level). People with power must surely conspire with each other to keep that power, unless it's entirely random?

do you?

I suppose I beat mine, but only at crosswords.

The rich don't conspire against the poor. They just don't consider them at all.

smaller men will be disproportionably beaten by bigger men. Women are smaller than most men. If some stupid man wants to get his own way and his opponent is smaller, whatever sex they are, he can resort to using his superior strength as a shortcut. That's a fact - I'm not condoning it, just trying to spell it out.

I do agree there, monkeytrousers (that patriarchy evolved and exploits men as well as women) - hence earlier comments about feminism and socialism.

but it doesn't follow that we have acheived equality or anything like it.

"Do we think that the rich (and therefore powerful) may conspire against the poor (and therefore weak)?"

That's more like it Tribot - and it is unfortunatley true that women are physically weaker than men. But women are the spoils too.

Have to go and watch a DVD now...(Upstairs Downstairs!!!)
Señora - give me a ring : 220499 with the usual prefix and we'll meet up, mornings are fine for me

also can I just say that I think this is my most successful debate thread ever, I think I'll have one every monday.

i think this is where i mention socialism and capitalist needs forcing everyone to work for their own self interests, this point where i say women have always worked.

i believe women hold a more equal place in society becuase women can also make profit for other people - as well as - and even better than - men.

and forget not. when talking about the vote. POOR MEN were not allowed to vote.

and dont even with the sufferagette shit - middle class women wanting a middle calss womens vote - not a vote for the poor.

not a vote for the poor men & women

an equality of the middle class. not equality of the sexes.

it makes me laugh, daily women work shit jobs alongside men, both working for minimum wage and somehow women are supposed to be spurred on by some false history and count their blessings that they are now free and liberated. EQUAL to the man also scanning beans on checkout 12. for £5.50 ph.

as time goes on people in power realise that giving an added benefit here and there actually increases production within society and the workp;lace and enables them to have more control and profit whilst creating an illusion - an illusion called capitalism. where you work your arse off til you die - and feel proud becuase you have a renault megan.

the middle classes do it better though, they have a beter education and therefore get better jobs better wages - marry better - make money better... they realise the meaninglessness of their existance and grow herbs and recycle to save the planet, make moherhood - a profession in itself, go to yoga and follow the latest parenting guru whilst buying he latest pram which is a fashion exessory, noting the extotionate price but being able to reason that its ok to do this becuase they use decaf, fair trade coffee beans from mexico. highly educated or not - the irony escapes them.

oooo the senora monday debate.

what a cure for the sunday night blues (another symptom of capitalist patriarchy).

i agree monkey that patriarchy exploits many men too by the way.

i also agree that it evolved rather than was somehow constructed.

i don't see how that makes feminism irrelevant in any way.

What do you mean by equaity though?

Does a lioness feel unequal that she can't prounce around with the big male lions, scenting trees and generally loitering with intent?

Why do women want what men have when in fact what we are discovering is that what they have isn't cracked up to much at all!

[round of applause for custys post: please see my reference to marx further down]

I'm not arguing against feminism - I'm a feminist

just needed to restate that

I completely agree Monkeytrousers. Whats wrong with accepting that men and women can't be equal at everything all the time.

I completely agree Monkeytrousers. Whats wrong with accepting that men and women can't be equal at everything all the time.

excellent monkeytrousers...you and me both.

I think it's more complex and unconscious than men knowingly conspiring against women (although there are doubtless there are misogynists in positions of power, just as there are racists, sexists and ageists - sometimes all at once).

There's just an unspoken sniggeriness at work with some men. I was reminded of it watching DIY SOS tonight (yes, I know - I am a sucker for the room reveal if I catch a glimpse of the before ) - the female designer is usually the butt of the jokes and has the piss taken in rather a snidey way by the all-male rest of the crew - it was actually pretty uncomfortable to watch tonight (apart from the fact it was DIY SOS ).

Having said that, there is also the tedious media stereotype of "useless man" as seen in adverts such as that one for the Brita water filter where the woman sneers at him for producing a cloudy cup of tea or that tortilla ad where she's on the phone to her mate going "yeah, he's cooking, the twunt, will probably be inedible muck, the pathetic useless worm" and he puts a decent plate of in front of her. This stereotype is played on by some men to get out of doing stuff (see AIBU threads on here for evidence of that in reams!).

I think that men often have more choice than women, but they don't usually Have It All any more than most women do. Mostly they'll work full time and not see their children as much, for instance. But it's more accepted for a man to do that (and they don't seem to have evolved with a guilt gene in the same way as many women either!).

Not sure I'm making a point or rambling aimlessly, really. Will post and read what's been written while I've been wittering

custy: I don't see many men scanning beans for £5.50 an hour. why is that?

I kind of agree though about the illusion of capitalism - although I think you're talking more about the protestant work ethic (where you work because that way you'll get more stuff and that will show everyone that god loves you). and where do the middle classes who don't give a monkey's fart about what pram/car they drive fit in?

Fuck, you're all going on about Marx and I'm talking about Nick Knowles

ah hunker...we agree.

Well, sorry to be pedantic PPB, but they are equal already, in terms of women not being inferior - what thay are however are different. Like I said before different doesn't = inferior. Feminism fights for womens roles to be elevated and that's a vital stand point because they are just as nescessary as male roles.

I know, Soph - funny old great place, MN, isn't it?

why do we so often talk about feminism as something that happened and is over? i'm still a feminist in this supposed 'post feminist' world. (and yes, i should be more politically active but that's another thread!)

Nor do I think you can blame feminism for not dismantling the class system. Obviously life isn't perfect for women and 'choice' can be as much of a trap as pre-war social mores were (for e.g). feminism has brought a lot of changes for the better...but there's still lots to be done. As i found out when i returned to work part time after having a baby.

'having it all' is too easily dismissed as 'doing it all' and feminism gets the blame - when surely it's down to us to keep making a fuss and demanding changes?

as mothers our positions are hugely powerful. my dh was raised by a strong woman and he had sisters. he is a credit to his mother and his upbringing. i firmly believe that. he respects women and that's where it starts in my book.

hunker, I'm crying with laughter over your precis of the tortilla ad. it must be monday.