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Original poster

what has feminism ever done for us?

390 replies

SenoraPostrophe · 09/04/2007 20:41

right girls, it's timne for a proper debate which isn';t about blardy weaning.

the motion is this:

feminism has not really acheived anything. women got the vote and were accepted in the workplace because of the world wars and not because of reason. Later, we accepted careers, but ended up neither having our cake nor eating it what with all the housework and childcare we were doing. and male hegemony still reigns supreme.

discuss.

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monkeytrousers · 09/04/2007 21:25

expectation to do with money and gain are what drives male sexuality as the aquiring of such resources makes them better partners and fathers.

It's a bit topsy turvey in a biological sense to see that women are now being suckered into doing this..for what?

Original poster
SenoraPostrophe · 09/04/2007 21:25

oh gawd, don't say we're near the pinnacle!

I think that (like 2ibs says) feminism and socialism are intertwined. The one cannot succed in some respects without the other - how can we have an equal society when some 15 yr old hgirls think that all they're good for is popping sprogs (much like our grandmothers did, in fact)? and, leading on from that, relative inequality is as important as relative poverty in that a woman who has been brought up to think she's worthless is just as likely to be unhappy as a woman who can never leave the house. POssibly more so, because the former woman sees other successful women all the time.

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Original poster
SenoraPostrophe · 09/04/2007 21:26

is money and gain a man thing though? men talk about it more, but lots of women are quite driven by the desire for stuff.

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Original poster
SenoraPostrophe · 09/04/2007 21:29

also tribpot: some women washed like that and took in ironing. it is beyond wonder really.

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southeastastra · 09/04/2007 21:34

i do think things have changed in 20 years. i can't understand how materialistic we've become though

monkeytrousers · 09/04/2007 21:37

But what is it to succeed?

I think we may have taken out eye off the prize over here in the west. To have a good quality of life, raise your children to adulthood and see them procreate themselves, to be looked after when sick, to be warm and full of food. There are the things that make life living.

But it's not our fault we take them for granted. Consumerism can't let us know how lucky we are.

TwoIfBySea · 09/04/2007 21:39

As I mentioned in my post, for some parts of society working was not the issue. Women who worked as servants or at the mill etc. or were at home with a clutch of babies were not the middle-class ones who would be freed from the boredom of being at home, with their servants doing everything for them, by a movement like feminism, they were far too busy for that.

Plus it has not brought wages into line. Yes a woman can consider doing a traditionally male job but they won't be paid the same for it.

I do not believe it does any favours to deny our femininity and charge ahead in an effort to prove we can do everything a man can and better. We do things a lot better than they do and vica versa, work on the strengths rather than whinging on about the weaknesses.

monkeytrousers · 09/04/2007 21:40

yesd it definetly is a man thing biologocally speaking. But that's not to say women don;t have desires and like having stuff. It just dosen't drive them in the way it does men - unconscioulsy.

Original poster
SenoraPostrophe · 09/04/2007 21:41

granted, the being able to raise your children with healthcare is something we should appreciate more.

but that quality of life thing is very wide isn't it? do people whose children get mercilessly bullied at school, but who can't afford private school have a good quality of life? what about the smack-head prostitutes who roam the streets in many cities?

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Heathcliffscathy · 09/04/2007 21:42

darling no man bashing.

women's liberation was for the liberation of all peoples.

ds is just as constrained as I am isn't he? Still going to be work sleep work sleep if he's not careful.

feminism didn't do nearly enough because as women we are the daughters of women that project all of their own resentment on to us and so perpetuates the self-hatred of the oppressed (and by god make no mistake we are oppressed, as are the poor and the disenfranchised) and the self sabotaging continues.

think feminism did a lot but the fact that it is now considered a dirty word says so much.

TwoIfBySea · 09/04/2007 21:42

And following on from what monkeytrousers said about success.

We are told by the media and society what constitues success, what we need to do to have everyone else consider us successful in life. At no point does anyone stop and think what they consider success to be. For some it might be the job they do, in others a passion or hobby they have, in others the family they nurture.

Until people concentrate on personal success then it doesn't matter if we are equal or not.

southeastastra · 09/04/2007 21:42

to me women seem too eager now to just spend their husbands money.

Original poster
SenoraPostrophe · 09/04/2007 21:42

I'm not sure I believe that a desire (other than a secual one) can be biological.

more wine I think

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monkeytrousers · 09/04/2007 21:45

That's what mean, it's the need for capital in a capitalst society that drives everything.

But is also provides the basic needs.

costs and benefits. it's all economics.

southeastastra · 09/04/2007 21:46

are you watching the jackie magazine programme? it's interesting

Original poster
SenoraPostrophe · 09/04/2007 21:49

at my man bashing faux pas.

sophable - you're right about your choices and happiness being similar to those of your husband but I'm thinking in broader terms I think. women are statistically a lot worse off than men still. But you're right, in the end it's about the end result. the personal success I guess.

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monkeytrousers · 09/04/2007 21:50

..or more specifically, there are parts of capitalism that go against the grain of human nature; there is a lot of work going on at the moment in biology and psychology to come up with policy ideas that go with the grain ? to minimise suffering within the vital engine of progress. Honestly, when you get a glimpse of the trouble this government goes to help all of us without causing humanitarian catastrophe ? it makes your mind boggle. Women certainly aren?t oppressed by patriarchy now. Men and women all are to some extent, but they are also liberated by it.

Life for the majority of people around the world really is nasty, brutish and short.

monkeytrousers · 09/04/2007 21:51

on the most basic level I2BS, sucess is having children survive to have children of their own. That's all life is about.

monkeytrousers · 09/04/2007 21:52

okay, forget desire, think, drive - the drive to eat and to have sex - these are biological, yes?

Malaleche · 09/04/2007 21:53

Hi, Dont know how you are all managing to be so coherent and educated sounding and while drinking wine too! It's enough for me to read and discipher the posts with my 2 remaining brain cells
I have to say i feel a litle cheated - we are supposed to have it all but frankly its too much! I'm self-employed with 2 pre-schoolers, i dont even have to do much cooking or shopping as DP does it but i still feel completely overwhelmed and have no time for anything. Its simply not possible to be a mother and work and be a partner and run a house without blowing a fuse.

Heathcliffscathy · 09/04/2007 21:54

i said ds not dh.

although they are interchangeable in this context

of course women don't have as much POWER as men have. but none of us have real freedom do we? unless we are very very very rich and very very liberated.

find me a free person? i'll find you a diamond on a beach.

that was the aim wasn't it? and i'm glad that feminism has in some ways been joine (superceded?) by anti global capitalism (come on xenia, come out come out come out!).

i'm kind of with marx on this in a way: dissassociation from means of production is horrendous.

isn't the whole green movement about regaining a sense of connection with the land, with our creativity, our power, our need to look after each other and our future, our childrens future?

in the end isn't trying to find freedom what it's all about?

god more i think about it more i think that capitalism (buy buy buy buy buy more more more more brand brand brand brand) is the root of all evil.

i'm sure i'm wrong, but it feels that way sometimes.

Malaleche · 09/04/2007 21:55

If i could just clone myself it would work...

monkeytrousers · 09/04/2007 21:55

Ahh Malaleche, but did feminism say we could have it all or the media???

The latter I think created a bit of a straw man and sadly we all use it as a stick to beat feminism - probably the most sucessful humanitarian crusade in history!

Heathcliffscathy · 09/04/2007 21:56

am a bottle down

'Women certainly aren?t oppressed by patriarchy now.'

OH COME ON!!!!! what a pile of old pants!

domestic violence anyone????? inequality of wages anyone????? jeeez!

Malaleche · 09/04/2007 21:57

I think its just a conspiracy by men to make us do everything, including make the money