MNHQ transphobia guidelines part 2

[QueenStromba]

First thread here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2120841-MNHQ-are-going-to-decide-what-constitutes-transphobia-on-MN-What-advice-guidelines-would-you-give-them?

Sitestuff thread that was about is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2117350-MNHQ-now-email-posters-with-how-to-get-around-the-talk-guidelines?

The thread that was about is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2107862-Following-on-from-the-TERF-thread?

Yes and in RL you were pretty indistinguishable from any other nervous new person (because we are of course even more terrifying than the MN FWR ).

I do find it fascinating how people differ online and in RL.

I am perplexed by the fixation on penis too, more specifically the idea that if a penis is removed a man becomes a women, as is the case during transitioning.

I do not think that a man who removes his penis is any more a woman than a man with a penis.

If a person chooses to live as a trans woman then fair play to them, they can do what they want, but they are not women, they are trans women.

Removing healthy body parts is (to me) a mental health issue and nothing to do with becoming a women because it is literally impossible for that to happen.

Sorry, Ican. I'll stop.

Thank you I can, that was the point I was trying and failed to make

myrtle sex classes are biologically differentiated to enable reproduction of the species. That is all (or it should be). Gender is the expectation of behaviours placed on people because of their sex. It is not a neutral spectrum of lovely things that we can pick and choose from - whether we like fairies and princesses or trucks and guns. It is an oppressive hierarchy. It is socially constructed but is real in the impact it has on women. There is no "fixation" on penises. A penis is an easily identifiable indicator of sex. A baby with a penis is a boy or interest, not a girl. A baby with a vagina is a girl or interest, not a boy.

Gender is the system of taking the boy baby and raising him to be a man in a male-dominated society and taking the baby girl and raising her to be a woman. It harms girls and (to a much lesser extent) boys. I don't believe that "female gender" is a thing that individuals possess. I don't feel it myself and no-one has been able to explain it to me other than by reference to socially imposed gender norms. Sex is real and oppression of women based on their sex is real.

Lovecat thank you for the link. But everyone starts of in the womb as female, right? And so the clitoris becomes a penis in male foetuses. If I've got that wrong I apologise, but that's how every biologist I've encountered has explained it for me.

Buffy I do understand that and wouldn't force an identity on anyone (even if I think they should identify a particular way iyswim) - but I also object to the idea that only feminists who align themselves with trans-critical feminism are 'real' feminists. I'm a feminist. I identify as cis and support trans rights. It doesn't make me less of a feminist. I also feel strongly attached to my gender and don't feel it's connected to my biology - if I woke up tomorrow with a penis nothing would change and I would still feel very female. While I am opposed to the patriarchy forcing gender roles on people, what about those of us who enjoy our gender? I identify as femme and do feel that this is something I have purposely chosen to embrace, albeit more from a sexuality perspective than a gender one.

deadwitch I don't believe that having a penis makes someone not a woman. I also don't identify with trans men because they are men, not women - they were assigned female at birth but are not women. I apologise if I've upset you but I have read the thread, and this is still my position.

Generally - sorry everyone, I am a slow typer and the thread moves quickly. If I miss any question out it's not on purpose and I am trying my best to keep up.

This question please myrtle:

"I would define a woman as someone who has a female gender"

What are you going to call people who do not have a female gender?"

but when people talk about a sense of entitlement, self confidence, arrogance, demanding they be listened to, expecting to be listened to, expecting to be given space and thinking they are most important - all characteristics males when socialised are supposed to be like - well, I can't relate to that

blistory

Do you know me? Do you know much about my life? How I feel about myself? How I grew up?

When I tell you how I feel -please believe me. I believe people on here when they say how they feel. Please don't assume you know how I am because society assumed I was male. You don't know me.

How ironic that you prove my point.

You know what ? You win. Your posts make it so damn difficult for me to post without thinking about offending you. Not just on trans issues but across FWR.

I'll bow out but think about the fact that you have just silenced yet another woman. Again.

Well Myrtle you seem to be the only woman who actually states that she 'feels' like a woman. So perhaps 'cis' woman is the correct terminology for you as you feel like a woman.

I don't feel like a woman I just feel like me.

In fact the only times I have heard anyone suggest they 'feel like a woman' have been transwomen.

ICan actually not all trans women have their penises removed, it is not an automatic part of transitioning and is not what makes them women. They are women because they have a female gender.

Oh and another one.

You say you identify as "femme". What does that mean?

I am getting a bit boggled by the reams of categorisations TBH. Why can't we all just be, without having to be labelled as this or that and then have great big fights about which of the labels who get a shitty time from the ones with the "best" labels, get the shittiest time of all?

I am a women and I disagree strongly that I have a 'female gender' so what am I?

Are you telling me that I am not a woman?

That's the question I am waiting for an answer to, ICan, as it is at the crux of all this.

Myrtle, what are you going to call people who do not have a female gender?

Myrtle, at no point do males have a clitoris in the womb. You are simply wrong.

I do not believe that a number of different biologists have told you that because it is entirely untrue.

this is the crux of it.

'Having a female gender' does NOT make you a woman

having female genitalia MAKES you a woman.

Seven I would call someone who doesn't have a female gender whatever they wanted to be called, whether male or genderqueer or something else.

Buffy I do agree that being socialised as female makes a difference. There's a trans woman Anglican priest called Rachel Mann who has written her autobiography, called Dazzling Darkness - in it she talks about having been socialised as male and that it has made a difference to her experiences.

Seven I think we should just keep on repeating it until someone answers.

Because actually it is completely The Point.

I mean you think your average straight white bloke gives even a seconds thought to any of this stuff in his whole life.

No he doesn't.
It doesn't affect him.
No-ones asking him to.

Our workplace respect courses were great in showing this up in all it's glory.

'You think you know what its like to be male'

My jaw just hit the floor kim

The irony is staggering

I don't want to be called anything other than what I am.

A Woman.

Myrtle, but would you call them a woman? If they did not have a female gender?