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OP posts:
BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 02/07/2014 21:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ICanHearYou · 02/07/2014 21:12

I'll call you Professor B if you like?

MyrtleDove · 02/07/2014 21:12

Buffy but being cis isn't about being stereotypical in gender roles. Butch cis women are still cis women. Butch is just a different way of being a woman.

ICan if you identify as a woman I am happy to call you a woman, being a woman is about having a female gender for me but I have no issue with that not being the case for others.

Seven femme is a queer female identity which may or may not involve traditional femininity in response to traditional queer female masculinity.

FloraFox · 02/07/2014 21:13

myrtle a clitoris does not become a penis. Cells develop into either male sex organs (penis, testes etc) or female sex organs (vagina, uterus etc). One does not turn into the other.

if I woke up tomorrow with a penis nothing would change and I would still feel very female

If I woke up tomorrow in a cat's body, I would still feel like a woman. This is as likely to happen as you waking up with a penis.

kim women talking about oppression: "a lot of it is just hyperbole" Hmm

Beachcomber · 02/07/2014 21:15

I hope yo don't mind Blistory, but your post is so good that I can't pick out a quote to say I agree with, I need to quote the whole thing again and say ITA.

Blistory Wed 02-Jul-14 20:14:45
So, in the interests of expanding my knowledge of transactivism, I think I've plummeted into a deep dark blog hole. Who knew there could be so much misappropriation of language and rewriting of biology ? Biological sex is a social construct ? Really ?

There really is a whole group that wants to obliterate 'ciswomen' from the class women.

Anyway, it's been enlightening but disheartening to learn that the extreme transactivists have been much more successful with their use of social media. I wonder if their confidence stems from the fact that the law really is in their favour or whether their confidence and strident position resulted in the law being in their favour.

I also can't help but notice that the more extreme transactivists appear to be biological men who won't give up their male advantages but simply want to add any female advantages to their repertoire. They are the ones insisting that women can have male genitalia primarily because they want to continue to use their male genitialia.

It's noticeable when you compare their rantings with the blogs of more moderate tranpersons, particularly tranwomen, who recognise that retaining a penis is not only of huge emotional and distressing concern to the transwomen involved but who also recognise why it's also an issue for entry in to some women only spaces.

Thanks, Beach for the Dyke March info - it's reinforced my own views that the problem, as for women, is primarily entitled pricks who choose to self define as transwomen but then trample all over other transwomen who simply wish to come to terms with their own painful journey and live their lives as humans first and transwomen second.

As for the young entitled feminists/lesbians/gays/genderqueer/misogynists etc etc who rally around and support the extreme transactivists - bully for you. It's not cool, it doesn't make you a trendsetter, it doesn't make you a liberal or a lefty or open minded. Maybe a lifetime of discrimination would bring home to you that you don't hurt anyone at the expense of someone else because the bigger picture is simply that we're all humans just trying to get by as best we can. Self identify however you like but fuck off with the idea that youth knows best. It's vile, bile dripping hate speech that you are using - don't dress it up as reclaiming language or made up genderbending queer speak.

I know there are very few ( query any ? ) transactivists posting on here but I had to get it off my chest.

So back to transphobia - can we restrict it to a meaningful definition that involves courtesy and respect without diluting our ability to speak out against extreme transactivism otherwise the whole trans issue will become lost in this one extreme faction. We need to be careful that we don't give away our ability to speak out against them or allow ourselves to be bullied and intimidated by them.

I'm aware that the above is somewhat rambling but whilst I did encounter some moderate trans blogs and websites, the transactivist blogs and sites have left me wanting to bleach my eyes and brain. Fuck knows how threatened I would feel if I was a transman or transwoman being accused of betrayal and pandering to the cis class. Sometimes the enemy really does lie within.

kim147 · 02/07/2014 21:15

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MyrtleDove · 02/07/2014 21:15

Seven yes I would call someone who IDs as a woman without a female gender a woman. I wasn't avoiding your question, just slow typing, honest!

Also to the PP who questioned me being told that a clitoris develops into a penis - I really have been told this, including by biology teachers. Also, if this doesn't happen then what happens when female foetuses turn into male foetuses as happens to everyone?

SevenZarkSeven · 02/07/2014 21:15

Myrtle sorry I don't know enough about it to understand that explanation, I need to google I think.

Please can you tell me whether you would call a person a woman if they did not have a female gender.

FloraFox · 02/07/2014 21:16

Myrtle what is "cis" then? What is a female gender?

MyrtleDove · 02/07/2014 21:16

Also nvm to the last question Flora answered it for me. Thank you!

TunipTheUnconquerable · 02/07/2014 21:16

You totally deserve to be a professor. I think you should change your name to BuffyTheReasonableFeministProfessor, as the start of the process of conditioning yourself to the idea.

SevenZarkSeven · 02/07/2014 21:17

What do you mean "IDs"?

There is clearly some big subculture here with it's own terminology that I am way too out of touch to understand.

Hakluyt · 02/07/2014 21:17

As i said on the other thread, in the 60s and 70s women fought so fucking hard for women only spaces for women to feel safe and acknowledged and recognised. Many women been cowed and silenced for years and finally started to have to confidence and courage to find themselves and their place in the world. I hate to play the crone card- but younger women have no idea what it was like. It's bad now, but then was another world.

And what this feels like is men trying to take that away. That women are being told to give up something because some men now want it. It feels to me like somebody taking something they haven't worked for or earned. "I want, so I get". Which smacks of patriarchy to me.

ICanHearYou · 02/07/2014 21:17

ID's as a woman? What does that mean exactly?

I don't 'identify' as anything but *ICan.

I am a woman because I HAVE THE BIOLOGICAL EQUIPMENT OF A WOMAN.

It really is no more complicated than that.

MyrtleDove · 02/07/2014 21:17

Seven I just answered, yes I would call a person a woman if they did not have a female gender but identified as a woman.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 02/07/2014 21:18

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CoteDAzur · 02/07/2014 21:19

Myrtle - re "I would define a woman as someone who has a female gender"

There is no such definition. You can't just make up definitions according to your ideology and agenda.

These are the relevant terms in the English language:

  • Person with female gender is called "female" (not woman)
  • Child female is called "girl".
  • Adult female is called "woman".

And "female" isn't something you can decide to have. Female is something you are, because you have XX chromosomes and a vagina.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 02/07/2014 21:21

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ICanHearYou · 02/07/2014 21:21

I've just had a scary thought.

How are they going to teach biology in school if 'Woman' no longer means 'Human with female reproductive organs' and Male no longer means 'Human with male reproductive organs'?

Who exactly is this benefiting? This re-writing of biology and insistence that anatomy is irrelevant in what makes us the opposite sex to each other?

ICanHearYou · 02/07/2014 21:23

Are we allowed to still specify animals as 'females' and 'males' of a species?

How do we establish whether or not a goat 'identifies' with a gender?

Does it need to be this complicated?

MyrtleDove · 02/07/2014 21:23

ICan well it means what you just said - you say you are a woman, therefore you are a woman. I wouldn't call someone a woman if they identified as male.

Flora cis is when gender and biological sex match - so, I am a cis woman because my gender is female and my biological sex is female. A female gender is a gender that is female - it belongs to someone who feels female.

Seven I don't think IDs is part of some subculture! I meant ID as short for identify, as in ID = identification.

Hakluyt but you don't earn being a woman, it's something you are. Trans women are women and so need to be part of women's spaces. They're not men, nor are they trying to 'earn' anything. Also, what about trans men in men's spaces?

ICanHearYou · 02/07/2014 21:24

I don't 'say' I am a woman.

I AM a woman because I have the biological REALITY of the female of the species.

Is this something you are unable to hear?

almondcakes · 02/07/2014 21:25

Myrtle, that would mean that biology teachers don't read school text books then?

The penis develops from the genital tubercle.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 02/07/2014 21:25

This is slightly on a tangent, but I'm going with it anyway.

I do find this use of 'queer' a bit crap.

I cannot help feeling some parts of this debate (not the parts with actual transpeople, the parts with well-meaning allies eager to identify as 'cis') has the ring of teenagers wanting to sound more cool and interesting than they are, and forgetting what they're playing with is someone else's real life and real difficulties.

How is someone who is a lesbian, who faces genuine, long-established prejudice, supposed to feel about someone waltzing up to claim they're 'genderqueer' and the lesbian woman is just part of that oppressive cis group with cis privilege?

Because that seems to be the issue. And yes, forgive me, I am not a lesbian and it's not my experience. But no-one seems to be saying this (I know we've talked about the 'cotton ceiling' on the other thread, but this is slightly different).

Maybe what all of us who have issues with 'cis' as a term should do, is to declare ourselves buzzwordy 'gender-rejectionists' and claim we are oppressed by the cis-privileged who do not understand us?

SevenZarkSeven · 02/07/2014 21:25

Right so if a person doesn't "ID" as anything, then where do they get put?

I googled the queer female masculinity thing BTW and it seems to be about how some women display behaviours etc which are associated with the male gender, and have done like forever.

Well is that really news to anyone? That some women can be "masculine" and some men can be "feminine" or "effeminate" all of which are of course used as derogatory comments by the patriarchy?

Why this need for labelling?

It turns out I have known quite a few "traditional queer masculine women" in my time. Who knew? I doubt even they did.

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