MNHQ transphobia guidelines part 2

[QueenStromba]

First thread here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2120841-MNHQ-are-going-to-decide-what-constitutes-transphobia-on-MN-What-advice-guidelines-would-you-give-them?

Sitestuff thread that was about is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2117350-MNHQ-now-email-posters-with-how-to-get-around-the-talk-guidelines?

The thread that was about is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2107862-Following-on-from-the-TERF-thread?

but when people talk about a sense of entitlement, self confidence, arrogance, demanding they be listened to, expecting to be listened to, expecting to be given space and thinking they are most important - all characteristics males when socialised are supposed to be like - well, I can't relate to that

Honestly ? Most people who have been raised as male wouldn't think that applied to them. There is a lack of awareness by men that they do this. It is incredibly rare in my experience for anyone raised as a man in our society, even quiet or unassuming ones, not to have internalised these behaviours. I'm not saying that you are not one of the few who doesn't do all of the above, Kim but it's not something that most men are even conscious of.

Cote sorry, the thread moves too fast for me to keep up with. I would define a woman as someone who has a female gender. It can match a female biological sex, or it might not.

Seven I genuinely thought my previous comments said the things they meant - clearly they didn't, and I apologise for not making them clear enough. I definitely don't think that the murder of women and girls is of little consequence and that only trans women's murders should be of concern. I do feel that trans women's murders are both not publicised enough and also not taken seriously - often connected to trans women often working in the sex industry and society's general acceptance of sex workers being murdered (which is a huge problem and men's murders of sex workers should not just be accepted). It looks like I got the 1 in 12 statistic wrong and I apologise for that - but nobody brought up the fact that trans women, particularly trans women of colour are at huge risk of violence and murder before I did. A lot of attention is on the fate of women and girls worldwide - rightly so and it should stay that way - but the murders of trans women are largely forgotten.

Now with TERF - I do now understand why it is a problematic term and won't use it anymore. I also completely agree that it is men who are murdering women, FAAB women or otherwise, and that it is they who should be criticised and not women.

Penises are big clitorises - I mean everyone starts with a clitoris in the womb, right? Also I know that many trans men don't have genital surgery because their hormones make their clitorises grow into essentially mini penises, and so surgery is unnecessary.

I certainly don't feel socialised as a male.

Except it isn't about how you subjectively feel. It's about how others objectively perceived you. And if they perceived you as male - even if they also perceived you as a male who didn't fit in with other males - you were still socialised as male. That's how it works.

Kim - yes, absolutely. Male socialisation is a curse as well as a blessing, particularly for the non-conforming.
Male privilege looks to me like a bundle of opportunities and pressures that are going to play out differently depending on the context and the individual.
It's not a case of 'you have male privilege over me therefore you've had an easier life!'
But you will have absorbed an amount of male socialisation without even being aware of it.
Without getting personal, when I talk to transwomen online before I know they're trans I tend to read their posts as their birth sex rather than the sex they've transitioned to, and I think this is very likely to be because their male socialisation is coming out in the way they post. Even if they resisted it at the time it will still have had an impact. Just like many women on here will have picked up a number of feminine characteristics even as we consciously rejected feminine roles.

The clitoris is actually bigger than the penis. And completely different.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/5013866.stm

Thank you for validating my existence, Buffy! :o

But why is it up to feminists to sort out trans issues?

Myrtle: 'I do feel that trans women's murders are both not publicised enough and also not taken seriously - often connected to trans women often working in the sex industry and society's general acceptance of sex workers being murdered (which is a huge problem and men's murders of sex workers should not just be accepted).'

Yes, definitely agree with that.

You know, as a y chromosome is just a dodgy x chromosome, all men are women

That easier?

Flora sorry, I now see the point you were making (all my fault, sorry).

I do believe there are different sexes! When I say that clitorises are just smaller penises, I didn't mean that literally, but as a PP said connected to how a clitoris becomes a penis in the womb. I was just perplexed as to the fixation on penises.

But why is it up to feminists to sort out trans issues?

I don't think it is but when a group of people are being victimised and terrorised by a common enemy then it's the right thing to do. We know as women what it's like to be ignored, oppressed, beaten, killed by men so women appear to be natural allies to some trans issues.

And I suspect feminism would have been a better friend to trans issues if the more extreme elements of transactivism hadn't tried to prioritise themselves over another oppressed group and in doing so, ride rough shod over women themselves.

Kim - that's interesting.
Has that always happened the same amount or is it something that happens increasingly often?

Some of them will be women with penises - being a woman is not about not having a penis.

I totally support trans men. I'm not sure that I can identify with them, me being a woman and them being men.

you can't identify with born women?

And I couldn't read all the thread because the violence of the transphobia was too upsetting.

Myrtle, the violence of your ignorance is upsetting me. I would urge you to go back and read the thread. So many excellent posts made that shouldn't have to be repeated here for you.

Thank you QueenStromba for starting this thread.

No, everyone does not have a clitoris in the womb.

What are you talking about?

Kim

No, of course I don't. Did you read what I posted or just misunderstand ?

I'm not saying that you are not one of the few who doesn't do all of the above, Kim

kim I know you went to boarding school and hated it. I know your father was military and very strict. You are correct I don't know about your life, just a few snippets you have posted. I have no doubt it was very difficult to grow up not meeting the expectations imposed upon you because of your sex (you're far from the only one, by the way) but I also have no doubt you were raised with male privilege. Most men can't or refuse to see this or acknowledge this, not just transwomen. To do so would be to acknowledge that they got a leg up in life and didn't actually achieve whatever they have achieved through their own brilliance and effort.

Lets not make this personal.

I actually think there should be a rule about NOT making things personal from either side.

I have a friend who is heavily into the social exclusion of black people, predominantly in America, this is because he is an incredibly intelligent individual with a lot to say about the world but ALSO because he is black so the issues hit home for him.

I will often reply to posts he puts up on facebook, sharing my understanding or empathy of a situation and he will do the same in regards to posts I put up, mostly feminine issues.

At no point do I judge him for 'only' focusing on a few types of social injustice and neither does he, I would not dream of posting 'oh but think about all the girls in India...' when he has posted something he relates to and cares about.

Because that would be demeaning his point of view and his research. So why is that happening to feminists? Why do we have to consider the plight of trans women in America? Obviously it is a plight that people will feel strongly about and that people want to learn about (myself included) but if I choose to spend my time spreading awareness about equality in regards to females, why am I then chastised for not caring equally about other things?

If trans women want the plight of trans women to be known, they need to do that research and spread that awareness, not expect feminists to do so for them. Frankly the three trans women I have on my facebook are not at all interested in trans exclusion and are even less interested in female exclusion.

Myrtle right this just here is the crux of the problem that many people have with all this:

"I would define a woman as someone who has a female gender"

What are you going to call people who do not have a female gender?