MNHQ transphobia guidelines part 2

[QueenStromba]

First thread here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2120841-MNHQ-are-going-to-decide-what-constitutes-transphobia-on-MN-What-advice-guidelines-would-you-give-them?

Sitestuff thread that was about is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2117350-MNHQ-now-email-posters-with-how-to-get-around-the-talk-guidelines?

The thread that was about is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2107862-Following-on-from-the-TERF-thread?

That was an excellent post by Chunderella. I also feel the need to point out that transgender is not the same as transexual and is a spectrum. That spectrum covers the classic transexuals who have body dysphoria particularly in relation to their sexual characteristics. At the other end of the spectrum are men with beards who like to call themselves male lesbians. When we are being critical of the transgender movement we are not bashing people with body dysphoria, we are being critical of the fact that "feeling like a woman" has become enough in to be classed as a woman without any medical intervention or even shaving your beard being necessary.

"Not one of them could understand why I wasn't keen to go in there"

They are either lying
Thick as fuck
Or been watching too many US cop shows

I like to think most men I know would understand why (whether or not they would agree is another matter)

It is still sexist though if it happens the other way round.

My reply is to Seven.

The last but one post of hers.

Looks like the blog I linked to is also appreciated by other transwomen. snowflakeespecial.tumblr.com/post/89483622323/i-am-so-tired-of-most-trans-activism-seriously-the

ppplease are you saying that you think transwomen shouldn't be housed in women's prisons, or that transmen ought to be housed in men's prisons?

Am new to all this but what I don't understand is

You have the biological things that determine sex - genitalia and for women ovaries, womb, breasts potential to have children and lactate and then you have gender which is basically an environmental construct.

There is no 'real' woman. There is a set of obligations and expectations of my gender.

So what are transwomen adopting? What are your expectations of this gender role? Because I have three daughters who are all different to each other in personality and interests. Their environment pushes them toward certain values and interests but I'd say before the age if about 7 there is very little difference between them and their male friends.

So what does being a woman represent to a person who wants to change their gender?

Seven, I meant that feminist could go back to using sex role to mean all social constructions placed on people based on their biological sex for the purposes of subordinating biological females.

Women not getting proper miscarriage care - sex role.
Blonde women are sexy and not to be taken seriously - sex role.
Women should be graceful - sex role.

Basically sex role means what gender used to mean before gender was redefined by various people.

I 'fail' those ludicrous brain sex tests too and come out resolutely male.

That doesn't make me not a woman though (I know buffy and everyone else know that, but new lurkers might not immediately realise it). It simply means that one can be a woman (biologically) and perform any (or no) gender expression I want. Expressing ones we stereotypically label 'feminine' in the UK don't make me any less 'womanly' than bring able to read a bloody map .

Just read four pages of that blog, Tilly, and can empathise with every word. Why don't we see more of this?

Actually, how about asking Snowflake and her pals what 'transphobia guidelines' they think MN should adopt?

Sillylass, a bit off topic, but Daphna Joel, the neuroscientist who denies that there is such thing as a male or female brain did also do some research showing there was a biological basis to the different way people with OCD think. I don't know much about the topic but she has various videos and there are research papers on her site about OCD.

I didn't make it to the end of the old thread I'm afraid. But I am so pleased that there is this level of debate and pushback about this, rather than the rolling-over we've seen from some of the feminist sites.

GarlicJulyKit - that's a brilliant idea. Do you want to ask her?

There's an "ask me anything" link here.

It's worth at least a skim Tricycletops - there were some very good posts towards the end.

Actually, how about asking Snowflake and her pals what 'transphobia guidelines' they think MN should adopt?
Great idea, tbh. I bet she'd love to get her teeth into it.

Why don't we see more of this?

Similar kinds of reasons to why StewieGriffinsMom doesn't post on MN any more, I think.

I have just come across a post right on that blog where she refers to an FtM refusing to discuss issues on his blog any more. snowflakeespecial.tumblr.com/post/89077381510/by-popular-request-a-list

I bet she doesn't mean that his computer is kaput and he can't do long posts.

I think some kind of guidelines would be valuable in asserting the fact that genuine discussion won't be treated as transphobia, actually.
In the past threads have been derailed by claims of transphobia when we were just trying to talk about the theory.
I also don't think there's anything wrong with a statement that certain slurs aren't acceptable and it's good manners to use preferred pronouns.

I was taught that men and women become wired differently due to brain plasticity - like working a certain muscle - do there are brain differences in mature adults but the jury is out about whether there are differences in newborns, I think Simon baron Cohen is researching this

My reading of the first thread was that most people don't think we need guidelines over and above the talk guidelines Buffy. I think the only thing that most people would have added is that it's rude/transphobic to refer to people with the non-preferred pronoun.

My own viewpoint on that is that referring to someone as their preferred pronoun when it goes against my personal beliefs on gender is a social nicety. I feel that if someone isn't respecting my feelings and beliefs/being rude to me and I have only been calling them he/she out of niceness then I should be allowed to refer to them as the pronoun that I feel is applicable. I'm happy to go along with that guideline though as long as I don't have to start referring to Jasper Gregory as she.