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Beachcomber · 05/07/2014 23:39

I'll tell you what - if it felt for one second that academia was behind making the lot of women better, I would be right behind all those involved.

You and me both CrotchMaven. It is all just too detached for me though and I know I've gone on about it but I think a serious look needs to be taken at the use of language.

Something I love about radical feminism is that there is some pretty amazing thinking that goes on and some grappling with hard concepts and painful stuff and the end result is clarity. And and consciousness raising and plans for action and inclusiveness and space for everyone no matter whether they have ever read a book, feminist or otherwise, in their lives. And I think that is a very very feminist way to be and is an act of defiance with regards to male elitism and male dominated culture constantly telling women that we aren't good enough.

I love it when women communicate simply together, it is so rich and refreshing and liberating.

georgettemagritte · 05/07/2014 23:39

Beach I did write a post about what I think postructuralism is useful for? I've also said repeatedly why does it have to offer solutions that go beyond giving us tools for rewriting a philosophical tradition? Not really sure why I'm getting attacked here. I've been in work for most of the day with no phone access but have tried to get back to all the posts.

I don't think third wave feminism is the patriarchal backlash. There's a difference between something being useful to its opponents and actually being part of its opponents. The patriarchal backlash is the male backlash against women and feminism. That we might think daft articles on sex-positive girl power in the Guardian are misguidedly making useful idiots of themselves doesn't mean there isn't a real capitalist and patriarchal backlash out there that doesn't really care what wave feminism is going on...

Surely one of the illuminating points of this thread is that transactivists don't really want to confront patriarchy (too dangerous), so they make targets of women and feminists, who they should be making common cause with. I think blaming postmodern theory and Judith Butler and third-wave feminism are the wrong targets for feminist anger, too.

Beachcomber · 05/07/2014 23:51

Thanks for getting back to me. We disagree on a lot of things.

Good night. It's late where I live.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 05/07/2014 23:53

math, tenure doesn't exist in UK universities. Hasn't done for ages. And clinging to an idea without it being defensible would make you look stupid, not academic.

Don't get me wrong, I think there's a lot wrong with academia and a lot wrong with what some people publish, but I don't really see what you're seeing.

IMO a big problem is that 'women's studies' has tended to be taken over by 'gender studies,' and a lot of gender studies and queer theory is fundamentally opposed to radical feminism. So you end up with feminists who're working in other departments (sociology, politics, etc.) who are doing important work, but what undergrads learn as 'gender studies' is not going to bear much relation to what radical feminists are doing outside academia. I hope that this is changing, though.

mathanxiety · 06/07/2014 01:28

Sadly, the world is larger than just the UK, and the pressures of carving out an academic career in a lot of the rest of the world lead to a lot more theorising than is strictly necessary, imho.

Hazchem · 06/07/2014 03:43

I'll say this for feminist academia it give me hope in the face of prevailing male theories. In my discipline I'm directly linking theory with doing. For me to for me to do my degree I need to understand the theory then when I go into the work force my role will be to translate those theories for people and in turn translate people's lived experience back into the institutional language with the aim of changing the lived experience of people and the structures that inform it.

mathanxiety · 06/07/2014 05:28

History is my primary area of academic interest. Sadly, despite the immense promise of the area Women's History has been placed in a nice little spot on a shelf in the section marked 'Peripheral'.

There is even an official month for it. You know you are a bit player in the narrative of establishment magnanimity towards the peasants when your history has its own month.

France has few Women's Studies departments or chairs in Women's History but French scholars have managed to do a lot of research and publish a lot on topics in history with women front and centre.

Beachcomber · 06/07/2014 10:28

Ok on the backlash thing, because I really think it is very relevant to the original subject of the thread and is an area that feminists need to get to grips with if we are going to get our movement back.

When I talk about third wave as the backlash, I don't mean that it is the entire sum parts of the backlash. There are of course many elements. But the third wave is an important element. A vital one.

Using Marxist theory, as explained by Dines in the video I linked to, a vital element in maintaining the patriarchal status quo is to undermine class, to undermine the idea that oppressed groups are groups. And to do this we need the idea of the individual, we need individualism, we need the personal to stop being political and for it to remain personal. This destroys collective power which is the only power available to the masses if they are to attempt dissent and rebellion or even significant change.

And in order to do that, one of the actions is to crush radicalism, to crush the voices and ideas under which oppressed groups can find common ground within which to develop awareness of their subjugation, to find strength and solidarity and to organize. And in order to crush radicalism you need to 'marginalize radicals' and 'co-opt radical ideas'. Which is what the third wave does (post-modernism a la Judith Butler co-opts radical ideas and then depoliticizes them. This is why she is so successful and influential, patriarchy loves her work). The third wave (using post-modernist ideas and queer theory) also helps create the hegemony of the individual and her/his choice and agency as a means to liberty.

So we get choice feminism and fun feminism and don't judge me or anything I say and do feminism. Sex positive feminism, don't you dare deny women's agency feminism, how dare you suggest women are victims feminism. Men can be women feminism. Which are all third wave. This bright and shiny and appealing third wave is also used to marginalize radicals. Who better to use to marginalize radicals than other women? So much more effective and less obvious than getting men to do it. Plus we get to accuse the wimminz of infighting if they resist these new brave shiny ideas and use good old divide and conquer.

Which is part of why we are where we are today with liberal feminism having been eaten by the third wave, radical feminism being marginalized by it, and we see things like women lining up to support womenphobic notions within transgenderism on websites like The F-Word.

I do not say this to lay blame or be angry with the women in the third wave. I am not angry with Judith Butler. I am angry with the regime which manipulates them and that regime is capitalist patriarchy. I have no desire to blame women for being oppressed or having their energy and thoughts co-opted for the purposes of oppression.

I posted on another thread that I think we are in the fourth wave of feminism now. The one where only radical feminism is left, marginalized though we are. Liberal feminism has been crushed. I hope it manages to make a comeback because we need radicals and liberals to work together to lick this thing.

And I think discussions like these various threads on transphobia do that, I think they consciousness raise in women who can relight the liberal movement.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 06/07/2014 11:22

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georgettemagritte · 06/07/2014 11:32

Lots of things that you've said here are true, Beach: you just need to get rid of the postmodernism stuff as it's just a misreading of postmodernism (and Butler - who isn't a postmodernist).

Liberalism can't help but be individualism - that is its mode of thought. If liberal feminism has collapsed under the weight of its own contradictions, that's because those are part of modernity and capitalism anyway. These contradictions within liberalism date back to the Enlightenment and before. (Postmodernism is actually a critique of liberalism and late capitalism aka neoliberalism: it's pointing out exactly what you're pointing out.)

I do agree that the way forward is collective and radical (grassroots) as well as a renewal of feminist and anti neoliberal thought within the academy and the public sphere. I think choice feminism is a product of neoliberalism and market thinking (like choosing your hospital, choosing your child's school, choosing your railway "service provider") and there are signs that people are coming to see that for the fiction that it is - but plenty aren't, and are completely convinced by market economics. If we could challenge the far more insidious idea that everything is up for sale in a market, and nothing really matters apart from the god of the market, that would do far more for feminism and other progressive movements than anything else.

georgettemagritte · 06/07/2014 11:37

And, yay Buffy ! Your research sounds fantastic :)

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 06/07/2014 11:39

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 06/07/2014 11:46

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LRDtheFeministDragon · 06/07/2014 12:03

math - gee, really? I'd never noticed the world is bigger than the UK.

Do tell me more! Hmm

LRDtheFeministDragon · 06/07/2014 12:16

Sorry. Blush

I am being rude, and especially rude when buffy and beach are saying such interesting things.

I do feel frustrated that some schools do 'women's history month'. I do feel annoyed at the way academia works (though honestly, the way that jobs are set up, such that you are really expected to be a single man while you're a graduate and then a man with a nice helpful wife thereafter, is immensely more of an issue than any supposed pressure to defend a failing theory in case it gets you 'tenure').

But I also think there is a fair amount of good stuff happening out there. Liz Kelly. Julia Long. Gail Dines. I think we need those women to be out there, working in academia and working with activists.

Then there are other women who are working with feminism but critical of the way things are going.

I am frustrated.

beach, my research question is, I want to know why and how popular fiction ingrains particular gendered* perceptions of truth. Eg., women as faithless wives or rape myths or gaslighting. I want to work out what it is in pop fiction that makes those narrative so persuasive and successful.

I know that it a small question, but in my view it could be a useful one, because if I can do that, I can say to women (or teenage girls) 'look, there is a history to this, you feel shit because you're bombarded with images of women being shown as less truthful than men, or more truthful but only when they're sexy, and this has been going on for centuries. And here's what it's all linked up to, these ideas that society wants to keep'.

*pertaining to women as opposed to men/men as opposed to women - this is very much gender as social construct.

I want to use that research in a secondary way, to connect to women who feel alientated by things like history A Level because it's full of men, or who feel they were shouted down in class because their truth - as a woman - was not reflected in the syllabus. I think part of what academic feminists have to do is simply to get more women to feel education should not be closed off to them, and to feel furious that it has been.

Is that too theoretical?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 06/07/2014 12:28

I'm sorry, I'm going to triple post, too.

crotch made comments about how all this doesn't mean anything to abused women. The thing is, there are plenty of abused women in academia. I know a woman who is researching rape because she was raped. I'm a really dull example because my ex was merely a gaslighting financially abuse tosser, but I went off and got into this because he was those things and I need to get out. It makes me feel immensely better to know that he isn't some witty, original example of manhood who just happened to get misunderstood by stupid little me, nor is he just confused and inept at emotion like menfolks are (sarcasm alert) - he is part of a really big pattern and he has no fucking excuse because I can tell him men have been making the exact same ones for centuries.

I'm not into complex language or postmodernism, or even lots of radical feminist theory because it simply goes over my head. But I'm not keen on the idea that if women are into those things, it must be because they've forgotten about the abuse and violence women suffer. It's perfectly possible they have suffered those things.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 06/07/2014 12:36

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LRDtheFeministDragon · 06/07/2014 12:42

That's true.

In the US, there is also a really revolting situation where if a female student reports a rape, it is sometimes not taken to the police, but dealt with by the university's internal disciplinary services. It's beyond appalling. There are horrible news stories about men who're on sports scholarships or otherwise 'valuable' to the university being systematically protected while the women are silenced.

I'm sorry, I take your point, buffy, it might not contribute to the thread. Just a bit prickly this morning, I think.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 06/07/2014 12:44

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almondcakes · 06/07/2014 12:55

Buffy, I would feel terrible if I made you feel bad about your own work. Nobody on here is in a position to make judgements about the value of what you do. It is certainly more applicable to everyday life than90% of what I get up to.

And I do really appreciate your efforts to explain very complex things on here, and have a great deal of respect for your personal perspective and behaviour on.

almondcakes · 06/07/2014 12:56

...here, on MN.

I'm not sure why I missed the end off that sentence.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 06/07/2014 13:04

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Beachcomber · 06/07/2014 13:04

IMO, my above analysis, which isn't mine, it is that of radical feminism, is Marxist. If postmodernist's want to say it is postmodern, I say, whatever. It doesn't really matter. What matters is that feminism gets its voice back.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 06/07/2014 13:09

Yes, I think it's Marxist.

I also think Marx might be the reason some people have thought you have to use very complex words. I don't speak German, but those who do tell me Marx isn't, on the whole, using huge, scary words. In English, his language can sound complex. I think perhaps this is why people writing in English feel the need to reach for scary-sounding terms.

But then, I think Mary Wollstonecraft understood and expressed a lot about women as a class way before Marx.

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