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OP posts:
Chunderella · 02/07/2014 20:12

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TunipTheUnconquerable · 02/07/2014 20:13

Half the women who get called terfs aren't actually radfems, so at a factual level it's fairly clear it's not about honest description, it's about discrediting.

SevenZarkSeven · 02/07/2014 20:13

Myrtle has just told me to stop worrying and getting upset about this:

"If you have girls genitals when you are born then depending on where you are you might be drowned in a bucket, refused an education, have acid thrown in your face because you look at a boy, or be raped to death when you go for a wee."

and to get worried and upset about this instead:

"trans women (particularly trans women of colour) are at huge risk of violence. HUGE. Do you know the rate for trans women of colour being murdered in the US is? 1 in 12. That is outrageous. If you want to stand up for women, stand up for the trans women of colour being brutally murdered."

Why can I not be worried and upset about both?

Why have I been told to forget about the fucking atrocities I posted about and think about something else instead?

Just who do you think you are, actually.

Jesus christ.

Chunderella · 02/07/2014 20:14

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CoteDAzur · 02/07/2014 20:14

"Why the fixation on penises?? They're just bigger clitorises ffs."

That is the stupidest thing I've heard around here, and that's against some competition Shock

It's not just the penis, either. It's the testicles. The sperm in the testicles. The lack of a vagina. The deep voice. The Adam's Apple. XY chromosomes in every single cell. You know, all that stuff that make up a man. Not a woman.

ArcheryAnnie · 02/07/2014 20:14

MyrtleDove a great many offensive slurs throughout the ages have been excused with "it's just a description". That doesn't stop them being slurs.

If something is repeatedly used as a slur - "die TERF" "stench of TERF" etc etc - then it will be taken as a slur.

Many of the women who have been derided as TERFs have repeatedly said that this hurts them, does not describe their reality, and is being used to silence and insult them. Why don't these women have the right to determine what they are called?

MyrtleDove · 02/07/2014 20:14

Tunip erm, yes. Strangely enough, violent bigotry is upsetting to me.

Flora biologically penises are just bigger clitorises. If you object then feel free to take it up with a biologist.

Seven that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying that there isn't huge violence against those perceived as female (whether they are or not) and that this isn't a problem of misogyny. My point (badly made I admit) is that this isn't always dependent on genitalia. It often is, but not always. A trans boy who is murdered for having a vulva is still a victim of misogyny. Again, 1 in 12 trans women of colour in the US are murdered - it's not because they're men. I also don't see why charities for women and girls globally would have to stop if they do work around anything to do with the female reproductive system - some of the women and girls they help will have that reproductive system, some won't. They can still help the ones that do.

More personally - I am bisexual. The anniversary of the Stonewall riots has very recently passed, the riots that were started by trans women of colour, Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P Johnson. I am humbled by these women and thankful that I can count them as sisters in the fight for queer liberation. Transphobia and rejecting those that helped fight for my liberty as a queer woman can have no part in that liberation.

Blistory · 02/07/2014 20:14

So, in the interests of expanding my knowledge of transactivism, I think I've plummeted into a deep dark blog hole. Who knew there could be so much misappropriation of language and rewriting of biology ? Biological sex is a social construct ? Really ?

There really is a whole group that wants to obliterate 'ciswomen' from the class women.

Anyway, it's been enlightening but disheartening to learn that the extreme transactivists have been much more successful with their use of social media. I wonder if their confidence stems from the fact that the law really is in their favour or whether their confidence and strident position resulted in the law being in their favour.

I also can't help but notice that the more extreme transactivists appear to be biological men who won't give up their male advantages but simply want to add any female advantages to their repertoire. They are the ones insisting that women can have male genitalia primarily because they want to continue to use their male genitialia.

It's noticeable when you compare their rantings with the blogs of more moderate tranpersons, particularly tranwomen, who recognise that retaining a penis is not only of huge emotional and distressing concern to the transwomen involved but who also recognise why it's also an issue for entry in to some women only spaces.

Thanks, Beach for the Dyke March info - it's reinforced my own views that the problem, as for women, is primarily entitled pricks who choose to self define as transwomen but then trample all over other transwomen who simply wish to come to terms with their own painful journey and live their lives as humans first and transwomen second.

As for the young entitled feminists/lesbians/gays/genderqueer/misogynists etc etc who rally around and support the extreme transactivists - bully for you. It's not cool, it doesn't make you a trendsetter, it doesn't make you a liberal or a lefty or open minded. Maybe a lifetime of discrimination would bring home to you that you don't hurt anyone at the expense of someone else because the bigger picture is simply that we're all humans just trying to get by as best we can. Self identify however you like but fuck off with the idea that youth knows best. It's vile, bile dripping hate speech that you are using - don't dress it up as reclaiming language or made up genderbending queer speak.

I know there are very few ( query any ? ) transactivists posting on here but I had to get it off my chest.

So back to transphobia - can we restrict it to a meaningful definition that involves courtesy and respect without diluting our ability to speak out against extreme transactivism otherwise the whole trans issue will become lost in this one extreme faction. We need to be careful that we don't give away our ability to speak out against them or allow ourselves to be bullied and intimidated by them.

I'm aware that the above is somewhat rambling but whilst I did encounter some moderate trans blogs and websites, the transactivist blogs and sites have left me wanting to bleach my eyes and brain. Fuck knows how threatened I would feel if I was a transman or transwoman being accused of betrayal and pandering to the cis class. Sometimes the enemy really does lie within.

SevenZarkSeven · 02/07/2014 20:15

I mean who reads those things and says "yeah whatever but if you were a proper feminist and a decent woman you'd forget those frivolities and go out and fight for these other people".

That is kind of fucked up.

ICanHearYou · 02/07/2014 20:16

Being a woman is a biological reality, it is nothing more than that.

Trans women do not have that biological reality, if we (lie) say that they do then we are ignoring basic biology.

The rest is purely socialisation and upbringing. A trans woman is not a woman, she is a mans idea of what a woman is. Women don't think 'as a woman' we are just people living in the world who happen to have certain genitalia which affects how we are treated from birth

Trans women don't have that socialisation they don't have that biological reality and they are NOT adult human females like women.

They can dress like women and talk like women and take hormones that mimic women's and so on, but they are not women, they are trans women.

MyrtleDove · 02/07/2014 20:19

And Seven I meant that you should be upset about both. Of course you should, I am. You haven't been told to forget about anything. My point was that trans women die because of misogyny too.

Cote women can have all those things.

Archery up to a point - if they are excluding trans women, why not call them trans-exclusionary? They are being trans-exclusionary. Getting upset about being called TERFs while demeaning and attacking trans women seems extremely ironic. I have never said 'die TERF' or anything like that, and know people who self-identify as TERFs. But I think I will just stick to 'transphobe'.

BeyondTheLimitsOfAcceptability · 02/07/2014 20:19

Out of curiousity, now the succession rule has been changed for our monarchy, i would assume they're gonna take that bit out now?

Sillylass79 · 02/07/2014 20:20

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almondcakes · 02/07/2014 20:20

I am a biologist, of sorts (Interdisciplinary). I have already linked to Daphna Jones explaining what the sex binary is. I'm not linking again because I am on my phone.

A penis is not a big clitoris.

Chunderella · 02/07/2014 20:20

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TillyTellTale · 02/07/2014 20:21

That penii and clitorii was meant to have a question mark above. I'm never sure what the right plural is...

Penises. The actual Latin plural of penis was erm, penis, and that's obviously very impractical. It wasn't a noun that was pluralised in -i.

SevenZarkSeven · 02/07/2014 20:21

Myrtle you do seem to have a habit of writing things that you apparently don't actually mean.

Maybe you should proof read your posts more closely so as not to accidentally keep saying really horrendous things.

CoteDAzur · 02/07/2014 20:22

Myrtle - "Cote women can have all those things (penis, testicles, sperm, Adam's apple, etc)"

No women can't have those things. Not if you know the definition of the word 'woman' - i.e. adult human female.

If you know of another definition, please do share. I asked you before what you think the word 'woman' means, and you didn't answer. Please answer now.

TunipTheUnconquerable · 02/07/2014 20:22

How many babies are conceived every year through clitorises depositing sperm in the mother's vagina? I always thought zero but I fear I am misunderstanding basic biology.

TillyTellTale · 02/07/2014 20:23

There isn't an acronym for men who like to rape and murder transpeople though, is there?

It is extremely odd. In a not very odd way.

FloraFox · 02/07/2014 20:23

Flora biologically penises are just bigger clitorises. If you object then feel free to take it up with a biologist.

You are being very silly and very wrong.

ArcheryAnnie · 02/07/2014 20:24

If you are arguing for one group of people to be called exactly what they want to be called, MyrtleDove, and denying another group of people their right to be called exactly what they want to be called, then you are a hypocrite.

MyrtleDove · 02/07/2014 20:26

Cis means that your gender matches your biological sex. That's it. I am cis. Many people here are cis. It's not an insult, it's just a fact.

If you don't want to be labelled as cis, don't label trans women as trans but just accept them as women. Simple.

Dictionary definitions are not the be-all and end-all of definitions, since language changes more quickly than dictionaries can keep up with.

Trans women are women who are transgender - women, not some other category.

SevenZarkSeven · 02/07/2014 20:26

A penis is not a big clitoris.
A clitoris is not a small penis.

That would kind of imply that the only difference between men's and women's reproductive systems are that women are men with really small willies. Right. So far so Freud.

But what about all those pesky eggs and sperm and differences in internal plumbing? They are real aren't they? Men's and women's reproductive systems differ more than just women have tiny willies?

Lovecat · 02/07/2014 20:26

I think I may have joined Buffy in becoming invisible...

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