MNHQ transphobia guidelines part 2

[QueenStromba]

First thread here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2120841-MNHQ-are-going-to-decide-what-constitutes-transphobia-on-MN-What-advice-guidelines-would-you-give-them?

Sitestuff thread that was about is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2117350-MNHQ-now-email-posters-with-how-to-get-around-the-talk-guidelines?

The thread that was about is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2107862-Following-on-from-the-TERF-thread?

There are no neurological differences between all males and all females.

You cannot sex any neurological component of the brain.

Men and women are not wired differently.

'I also respect the way “woman” and “man” are used in the radical feminist sense where they mean “adult human female/male”. Obviously that’s a common sense definition and in that sense, I am inescapably a man. Again though, that doesn’t change my current social reality [as a woman].

'I don’t think there’s necessarily anything wrong with me referring to that social reality as my frame of reference as long as I try to stay fully mindful of the responsibilities I have to females due to my biological reality.'

Wow A blinding flash of trans* common sense, realism and - above all - responsibility, from Mindergenfield there.

It's the responsibility in the final sentence that's so impressive. She sounds grown up and comfortable with who she is ... something that everyone aspires to, but tragically few trans* people seem to achieve despite the agony.

I was taught that hormones such as testosterone and environmental factors cause structural differences in the brains of males and females. Was only undergrad psychology though

I'll let you in on an insider secret TheBogQueen. Lecturers who are teaching stuff that isn't their exact subject area have been known to look stuff up with google and not demand from themselves the same rigorous selection of references as they would their students.

99% of people have either xx chromosones, ovaries and vulva together or they have xy chromosones, penis and scrotum all together.

That is what biological sex is. That is why we call it a binary.

There is no neurological feature of the brain that 99% of men have and women don't, much less three things in combination together that 99% men have and women don't. Brains do not have a sex.

Well, good luck to Baron Cohen with that. The newborn brain's pretty much a synaptic soup, and observed developmental differences by sex are all correctable through appropriate learning. PET scans are a marvellous tool for demolishing sexist preconceptions.

I tend to favour the idea that emotional hormone flooding during pregnancy, and possibly straight after birth, could permanently impact the number & efficiency of certain neurological pathways. But that's still being investigated, and will take a very long time as we still don't know much about how neurotransmitters actually work.

From that blog, I thought this was a very elegant summary:
Transsexual People

1. Transsexual people experience a psychiatric condition, referred to as gender dysphoria, perhaps better labeled sex dysmorphia, which makes it very difficult to live in their sexed bodies. This is a painful and poorly understood condition occurring in less than one percent of the population.

1. Sex is chromosome-deep and expressed in physical morphology beyond that of the genitals and breasts. It is not possible to change one’s sex, any more than it is possible to change one’s genetic ancestry. However, one can undergo hormone treatments and surgery in order to more closely resemble a member of the opposite sex, and this can help relieve sex dysmorphia.

1. Social transition is just as important as physical transition, particularly for males who must work through their male privilege and learn what it is like to live in a sexist world while being perceived by others as women.

1. The term “trans women” is a concession, made out of sympathy and respect, for males with sex dysmorphia who undergo physical and social transition.

1. Transsexual people are capable of building healthy, happy lives for themselves, and do not need to be treated like they are made of glass or like their physical reality must be papered over with magical thinking.

1. Women and trans women will have some important things in common (e.g. fear of male violence) and some important things not in common (e.g. socialization as a girl from birth, female reproductive biology). Accordingly, we will share some goals and spaces and not share others.

1. Transsexual people deserve legal protection of their human rights to safety, education, employment, and housing.

1. Gender non-conforming males experience violence at the hands of other males. That violence should be addressed at the source. Women are not responsible for putting male victims of male violence ahead of female victims of male violence. That expectation is grounded in the gender hierarchy. Many of us will, however, partner with anyone who wishes to help name and confront the social pandemic of male violence.

1. As for women’s spaces, feminists have proposed compromises such as simple documentation of medical treatment for sex dysmorphia before accessing opposite-sex nude and semi-nude spaces. I refer you to Elizabeth Hungerford’s work at sexnotgender.com.

10. Transsexual people furthermore deserve caring and effective medical treatment.

11. It is, however, absurd to expect any woman who wants to talk about feminism to have an opinion on the proper treatment for a rare, complex and poorly understood medical condition.

12. It is furthermore absurd to expect feminists to center males who experience a rare, complex and poorly understood medical condition; pretend reproductive difference does not exist or matter; or call themselves “cis women” in order to differentiate the 52% of the human population that is female from the less than 1% of males who experience sex dysmorphia.

13. Most trans women are just trying to live their lives without receiving nor giving harm, and are not demanding that women jump through these absurd hoops for them.

Although perhaps the very short conversation that someone (sorry, can't remember who) posted last night says the same thing more succinctly

Yup. I've just read that on its original source and it says it all for me.

secretlyradical.blogspot.com.au/2014/06/feminism-and-transgender-identity.html

It's a summary of what she says here. mshellbedlam.blogspot.fr/

Which leads on to something I would like to discuss.

The effing 2004 Gender Recognition Act. Which has promised unicorns and rainbows to transgender people. This is the backlash from the Left/Liberals. And it's cunning.

And now we are in the situation where many transpeople, in particular transwomen, are pissed off because the unicorn hasn't materialized in the promised manner. I think this is what a lot of the anger is about. The UK Parliament has enshrined the impossible in law and women must figure out a way for it to happen because women'swork/wifework/nobody gives a shit about women/women are there to do men's bidding. It keeps the ladies busy and in their rightful place and reinforces patriarchy and guts feminism. Win, win, win. For patriarchy.

There's more I want to say but am affirming my womanhood via the feminine task of making my kids' tea.

Would love to hear more about that, Beach, when you've done tea (and when I've eaten mine, which my husband is currently breaking down stereotypical gender roles by making).

What did the act promise?

Beachcomber, I also agree with that.

Thank you for that link.

I don't understand the GRA either. It would be great if somebody explained.

Just marking place, I want to keep up with the discussion.

Thank you, beach, for your posts on these threads. I agree with you on the GRA. I am also doing the v feminine act of making tea, whilst dh helps with ds2's maths homework. There's no hope for me, is there

OddFodd - That is a good summary.

www.yourrights.org.uk/yourrights/right-to-receive-equal-treatment/transgender-discrimination/the-gender-recognition-act.html

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 (‘GRA’) provides transgendered people with legal recognition in their acquired gender. Legal recognition will be achieved when a gender recognition certificate is issued by a Gender Recognition Panel made up of at least one legally and one medically qualified member.

The GRA does not require that the person has undergone gender reassignment treatment to qualify. Indeed, the GRA recognises that a person’s gender identity, and not surgery, is the defining factor.

The effect of obtaining a gender recognition certificate will be significant. For example, a male to female transsexual person will be legally recognised as a woman ‘for all purposes’ including the criminal law, entitlement to state benefits and occupational pension schemes. Importantly, she will also be entitled to be issued with a new birth certificate reflecting the changed gender and will be able to marry someone of the opposite sex or enter into a civil partnership with someone of the same sex.

Emphasis mine.

The impossible unicorn promise bit is in bold.

Here for .gov.uk if you want to read the actual thing.

I think it is good to read it but it is just as interesting to see how it is presented on the web/in the press. As in the above link which frames it in terms of 'your rights/right to receive equal treatment/transgender discrimination'. Which is the sort of thing a lot of people will pick up and run with.

Blimey. I've never read the legislation - I didn't realise that legally there is no distinction at all between trans and born women/men.

No wonder everyone is running scared.

What a fucking stupid piece of legislation.

I'm so tired of TERFs saying that only TERFs count as feminists. I am a feminist - for me that means standing up for all women, including transgender women. Genitalia does not define your gender, neither does body hair or other secondary sex characteristics - are people saying that not having a beard is essential to being a woman? Of course it's not.

Also there is no difference between transgender and transsexual - transsexual is an outdated term. Transgender encompasses those with body dysphoria and those without.

These threads are showing just exactly why there needs to be a crackdown on transphobia on MN.

Chunderella how is TERF misogynist? It's a fact.

OddFodd it's not stupid at all. Trans women are women, therefore deserve to be treated as women. Distinguishing between trans women and cis women in law would be horrendously transphobic. The law is one of the few good bits of trans equality legislation.

Trans women are not women.

That is biological fact, women are a little more than men without penis's

Also - the gender binary does not exist (genderqueer people exist after all) and neither does the sex binary. Intersex people include those with chromosones other than XX and XY.

Also, given that MN is a parenting site, it's worth pointing out that transgender children are out there and there will almost certainly be some parented by MN members. Fighting transphobia is therefore protecting children as well as adults. Organisations such as Mermaids should be brought in to help with this IMO.

Which is the sort of thing a lot of people will pick up and run with.

For clarity. By 'people' I mean a whole range of people and absolutely not just those who identify as transgender. Those with an agenda which is bolstered by the legal change to the definition of the group formerly known as women.

MyrtleDove, 'TERF' is a slur.

Also there is no difference between transgender and transsexual

Actually there is. See trans asterisk (trans*) for why.

ICan trans women are women, and gender is not about biology. Some of them will be women with penises - being a woman is not about not having a penis. Also many trans women do not have penises.

This is why the Feminism boards are such unsafe spaces for all women - anyone who objects to transphobia is not welcome. Feminism is about the liberation of all women, and feminism that excludes groups of women (whether women of colour, Muslim women or trans women, or other groups) is bullshit.

I am genuinely really upset at the truly nasty and virulent transphobia on MN. What if a trans mum came on here? What a horrible experience she would have.

Of course it's stupid because it's such a blunt instrument. I want transpeople to have rights enshrined in law. But not when they take away my (hard won) rights in their enactment.