MNHQ transphobia guidelines part 2

[QueenStromba]

First thread here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2120841-MNHQ-are-going-to-decide-what-constitutes-transphobia-on-MN-What-advice-guidelines-would-you-give-them?

Sitestuff thread that was about is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2117350-MNHQ-now-email-posters-with-how-to-get-around-the-talk-guidelines?

The thread that was about is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2107862-Following-on-from-the-TERF-thread?

Why the fixation on penises?? They're just bigger clitorises ffs.

The academic sounding talk is fascinating (as much as I can follow) but ^ this is where your average person will sit up and say WTAF!!

new thread! some old gender essentialist bullshit Although I am in awe of those of you with the stamina to keep on trying to argue against it all (I suspect you are the poor beleaguered FWR faithful). I don't know how you do it, but I really do thank you for keeping on at it.

And Cote, that they will never BE women as they will never achieve the biological reality of what a woman IS.

I've never been on the FWR board really.

I am guessing when Kim started the new thread in chat to gain support for transwomen she didn't quite realise the strength of some peoples opinions on the subject!

Straw man Math. Nobody is saying transwomen are now women and women are now cis women.

Or to put it without using cis or trans: Nobody is saying women are now women and women are now women. Does that make sense? Pretty hard without using a prefix, and if you're going to use a prefix it needs to be both. Unless you're going to single one particular group out.

queenmab That. Was. Brilliant.

And I'm not a trans woman.

I have to say that I'm quite a bit in love with Beach, Cote, Math, almond, LRD, Buffy, Tunip and all of the other fantastic, strong women on this thread.

I realise that I have OP privilege on this thread and actually I hate being an OP due to the privilege that it entails. People will pay attention to what I'm saying far more than they will what everyone else is saying because my posts are highlighted for most people. Can I be trans-OP please?

No tiggy it does not need to be both. Because Transwomen are not biologically women. They are transwomen.

Simone deBeauvoir was talking our her arse imho.

The objectification of women, the otherness, the exploitation, the separation, the pornification, and the discrimination could not occur if women did not have physical incarnations that are different from men's, including superior physical strength that is always the bottom line for women.

I left out allhailqueenmab there who I am equally in love with.

"Nobody is saying women are now women and women are now women. Does that make sense?"

No.

But this does:

Women are women, and men are not women.

I refuse to acknowledge your continued insistence that this topic is about you Kim. As I already pointed out after the private message you sent me insisting I was talking about you personally, I am not talking about you personal, I refuse to do that.

Because actually it is just a way of ensnaring people having a general conversation into making what you can deem a personal attack. I want none of it.

I always wonder what the result at the ECHR would have been had same sex marriage been allowed in the UK at the time. I also often wonder where we all were when this was going on.

Yes CrotchMaven. This is a really important point and I hope it doesn't get lost due to the speed of the thread.

Tiggy -- fair enough on the matter of campaigning. I asked you personally why you don't start a campaign and your response properly addressed the reasons why you personally do not want to start a campaign.

But in general then, for trans people here on MN:

How about a transmen's and transwomen's issues and rights board, as opposed to the LGBT parents' board? There are more issues at stake for trans people than parenting-related issues.

After all there is a FWR board as well as boards devoted to many aspects of parenting, in recognition of the fact that for women (including women who are parents) there are more than just parenting issues involved in our negotiation of life.

I haven't made comments and insinuations about you Kim I have stated that you started a thread in chat to garner a wider audience and that perhaps you did not realise the strength of opinions that would follow.

That is not me being negative, or positive, simply pointing out the facts of the previous thread.

Dictionary definition is the best, of course: Woman = adult human female.

harassment - unwanted behaviour linked to a protected characteristic that violates someone’s dignity or creates an offensive environment for them

Tiggy, what about when the unwanted behaviour is experienced by lesbians from trans activists? Do they matter? Or do they just have to live with it? Because I'm not seeing many posts by you which indicate you give a shit about the protection lesbians are supposed to enjoy from the law.

As an (not unimportant) aside, one of the reasons that post-modernist theory is so difficult, is because it is meant to be. (sorry again to Buffy).

It is, IMO, male centric, male centric derivative discourse that is designed to be off-putting and elitist.

It is there to wrong foot the masses (a group which I place myself in).