MNHQ transphobia guidelines part 2

[QueenStromba]

First thread here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2120841-MNHQ-are-going-to-decide-what-constitutes-transphobia-on-MN-What-advice-guidelines-would-you-give-them?

Sitestuff thread that was about is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2117350-MNHQ-now-email-posters-with-how-to-get-around-the-talk-guidelines?

The thread that was about is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2107862-Following-on-from-the-TERF-thread?

I'm impressed that somebody else has heard of Tara Hewitt! Has she pissed the feminists off? I'm confused - she refers to herself as a feminist.

My mind is boggled now.

She's pissed somebody off this evening by saying IVF is wrong in a twitter conversation. This person is having IVF currently. She thinks people should just adopt instead. Perhaps when there's zero chance you can ever have your own child, you are happy to remove that choice from other women.

So hang on, if 'woman' doesn't mean 'female of the species'

then when someone says 'I feel like a woman' what do they mean?

Tilly the something more that women are than uteruses is people.

Hopalong sorry for misgendering you, and I retract my former comment about you being a cis woman. What pronouns/gender do you use?

Queen Tara Hewitt is utterly wrong re abortion etc, but is absolutely a woman and you don't have the right to misgender her. One's gender is not dependent on one's niceness. I fell out with a trans male friend a while ago, I'm not going to call him 'she' because he's not female, and our falling out doesn't change that.

ICan biology deals with biological sex, not gender, so there would be very little change.

Also - I missed this before, but I'm not sure where people are getting 'third gender' from. 'Third gender' is a specific Native American term and has been misappropriated by some (usually white) genderqueer people. It's not for use by non-Native people.

Tilly from the point of view of how we are oppressed the facts of female biology are very pertinent though.

Men don't sexually harrass women on the street because they can ID their internal gender identity. The do it because they see a female bodied person, who is usually identified additionally due to having some of the trappings of the female gender about her.

" claiming that you are a woman because you feel like one, and should thus have access to female only spaces and conversations is the absolute peak of male privilege. And here we see women assimilating that and accepting it and promoting it."

Is there a name for such women in Newspeak?

I'm guessing "familiar" or maybe I've watched too many vampire movies.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on the proliferation of all these various definitions and categories and their relationship to social power?

Yes, I think that they are designed to pigeon hole, over-complicate and create factions when none are needed.

I think that they will lead to higher levels of social exclusion, less ability to comfortably discuss relevant issues in an educational manner and will remove the ability to respectful spaces for thought, discussion and support.

Buffy kind of? It's more about a reaction to identifying queerness in women with masculinity.

Also femme is very much to do with me being a queer woman, and I wouldn't apply it generally to me having a female gender - so unless someone says 'nice arse' to me with a lesbophobic intent behind it, I wouldn't say it's to do with being femme.

But as I have said to you Myrtle my 'identification' as a female is to do ONLY with my biological reality, nothing more.

It is you that is blurring the lines between biology and gender. If we cannot agree that 'a woman' is the female of the human species without being accused of 'transphobia' then how can we educate our young?

I agree that Tara is a woman. I support that, though I'm confused why I support it if I'm not sure she's fully transitioned.

I guess I support her right to live however she sees fit.

I certainly don't like her telling other women what to do with their bodies though. She claims to work in 'diversity' yet cannot see the obvious irony that she would deny other women the IVF/surrogacy/abortion that they may require for a diverse set of reasons.

myrtle you still haven't explained what gender actually is. What is a female gender?

On the biology point, I think your teacher was being very simplistic, as Capt said. This might be helpful.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_differentiation

A foetus does not start out female. A foetus will get an X chromosome from its mother and either an X or Y from the father. If it gets an X it is female and if it gets a Y it is male.

I'm not a biologist but I know a number of very senior biologists in academia and in industry. I have had this discussion with some of them. They literally laugh out loud and shake their heads.

I'm coming to the point of feeling unwilling to use female pronouns for transwomen. I was quite happy to do this when I thought we all understood that transwomen were very unhappy men and we would call them "she" so they would feel better. Now that I can see people like myrtle and lots of other people who actually believe there is no such thing as being male or female, I think the pronoun use has contributed to this situation getting worse.

What's the distinction between 'queer' and 'lesbian' in this context, if that's not a rude question?

Myrtle it was on the list I linked which was the first up on google, to try and understand some of the terms you were using.

Are the people you talk to in the US a lot? Because I have heard the term 3rd gender used before, especially in parts of Asia. You say "it is not for use by non Native (American) people" that seems a bit, erm, random.

The whole point of languages is that it changes and you can indeed realign definitions.

Language change is one thing.

Newspeak quite another.

oh, and this:

Also Queen (sorry for missing your earlier comment* I'm not sure what you are suggesting by ulterior motive. I am a woman with XX chromosones, not trans at all if that's what you're suggesting. I have trans friends and campaign for trans rights within LGBT circles and also the CoE.

Myrtle, third gender is not a term specific to Native Americans.

So here is a wiki link and here is an excerpt:

"The Hijra of India are probably the most well known and populous third sex type in the modern world – Mumbai-based community health organisation The Humsafar Trust estimates there are between 5 and 6 million hijras in India. In different areas they are known as Aravani/Aruvani or Jogappa. Often (somewhat misleadingly) called eunuchs in English, they may be born intersex or apparently male, dress in feminine clothes and generally see themselves as neither men nor women. Only eight percent of hijras visiting Humsafar clinics are nirwaan (castrated). Indian photographer Dayanita Singh writes about her friendship with a Hijra, Mona Ahmed, and their two different societies' beliefs about gender: "When I once asked her if she would like to go to Singapore for a sex change operation, she told me, 'You really do not understand. I am the third sex, not a man trying to be a woman. It is your society's problem that you only recognise two sexes.'"[52] Hijra social movements have campaigned for recognition as a third sex,[53] and in 2005, Indian passport application forms were updated with three gender options: M, F, and E (for male, female, and eunuch, respectively).[54] Some Indian languages such as Sanskrit have three gender options."

'Third gender' is a specific Native American term

You're thinking of two spirit.

"biology deals with biological sex, not gender"

Do you realise that gender is something that arises from your biological sex and not something you can choose?

Female gender is made up of the society's expectations, prejudices, conditioning etc about the female sex. You can't separate gender from the biological sex.

You seem to be talking exclusively of gender identity. Yes, a very small minority of men identify with the female gender. We call their condition a disorder.

I'm a woman myrtle because I actually am, biologically, a woman. I use she and her. My gender could probably be described as predominantly female, if we're going with stereotypes of gender. But the point is that cis is a useless term because it's such a binary, blunt instrument. Transwomen are not women in the way that a 2 year old girl* is also not a 'woman'. They don't meet the definition of a woman. There's nothing wrong with being a transwoman. It's not less than being a woman. It's not a slur or a hateful way of describing someone. It's factually correct. Cis does not make sense and is not necessary. I do not define my womanhood against men who want to be women. My womanhood just is, biologically speaking. The label does not need changing.

*I hate this example because you're going to think I'm comparing transwomen to infants, but it's late and I'm tired and it's all my addled brain can do right now.

"I'm coming to the point of feeling unwilling to use female pronouns for transwomen. I was quite happy to do this when I thought we all understood that transwomen were very unhappy men and we would call them "she" so they would feel better. Now that I can see people like myrtle and lots of other people who actually believe there is no such thing as being male or female, I think the pronoun use has contributed to this situation getting worse."

^ This.