Why are we the only country who CAN NOT be patriotic or express their opinions?????

[EvesMama]

where i live there is uproaor about a local pub daring to display the england flag across the front/top of its building...told to take them out of charity shop windows etc..now on t.v this morning..some scottish people are filmed asying they HATE English and will be supporting trinidad and tobago in world cup...????

we cant so much as think anything like that..and now this close to home?, were both part of britain FGS

if that was and english guy/gal saying that ther'would be a whole heap of trouble?

again where i am from..crime in the surrounding towns is high and statistics show that a high % is caused by people our country have given asylum too, who we allow to live in our country who receive help from US and if anyone dare say they think it is unfair, we are racist?

i just cant get my head round it?
the world is going mad.

expecting some 'good' replys on this, but im sorry i just think some people take the P out of us because they know it'll be us in bother

Blu did you read that recent article on San Diego in the Guardian? I'd not heard about it until then and I WAS SHOCKED! Horrifed. I agree there are good reasons NOT to want to fly the flag.

True Edam, but what pisses me off about WWII is just how little people know about it really and that every single time a football match involving Germany is played, the war suddenly becomes an issue. The French don't go on about the revolution when playing other countries, do they? It's something more than just being a great defining national event; and also, what's interesting about it as a great defining event, is that it actually was the end of that version of Britishness, or Englishness anyway - it was the end of empire and very quickly led to the beginning of multi-cultural Britain. So I think there's something more going on than just an event of national bonding, etc. But I guess that's a whole book in that discussion, rather than just another thread!

Scotland have their own world cup song. I heard it this morning on the radio! \link{http://www.scottishquest.com/howscottish/song.swf\scotland song} - has audio if you are at work

The World Cup Finals are on their way
With all the teams off to Germany
Brace yourself cause on every screen
There’ll be nothing but the England team
But wait!
Hey!
There’s hope at hand
We can still support
Scotland, Scotland, Jason Scotland!
So come on Scotland, Scotland oh oh oh
The Tartan Army are on the go
With Trinidad and Tobago
It's Scotland!

Ha harpsi we'll have to do an empire thread one day when we've all got time.

I also have a scottish friend who supports anyone but England in the football. He just has to, it's his social duty. He's also horrified by me being Irish and supporting England and I think sees me as some kind of Celtic traitor.

that was for 2happy! at least it shows a bit of humour!

the empire thing may just be me trying to justify my generalised sense of middle class guilt and personal distate for hooliganism and all its accoutrements - and I'm never one to deny my lack of logic or indeed historical knowledge

I obviously didn't express myself too clearly earlier. What I was trying to say is that if Britain did behave in a better way towards its ex-colonies it might be possible to move on from the exploitative nature of colonisation and provide a bit more to be proud of. I admit to complete ignorance about San Diego (will remedy that as have time on my hands today!) but I agree that the situation surrounding Iraq and Iran does not give us much to be proud of. However, I don't think that rubbishing England and writing off all the things that are worth being proud of is good for us as a nation. There is a lot to be ashamed of (I hate the heavy-drinking, xenophobic, take no responsibility for yourself culture passionately)and football hooliganism is despicable but there are a lot of ordinary folk who love football and it's unfair to tar them all with the same brush.

the tribal thing makes me a bit queasy tbh, not just the national teams but the local derbies leading to big punch ups and all that. I know it is just an outlet/excuse, but it is still vile to watch.
having said that - I am your average Enlgish mongrel (Scottish/Irish/bit of Dutch) but I still think it would be rather jolly for England to win.

But 2happy what is so upsetting about being called 'English'....

As a Scot living in Scotland who is not rascist/zenophobic/rude/disparaging about England and or the English as a race I find I am driven to absolute rage by the English media and there completely biased commentary and overall obsession with the English football team. Christ, I wasn't born in 1966 and can probably replay THAT football match on paper if challenged. I am not actually that interested in Wayne Rooney's bloody broken foot but have no choice but listen to the boring details again, again and again.....

In general North of the border we are not currently whipped up into a frenzy over the World Cup 'cause we ain't in the thing. But because we share the some broadcast & print media as England we have the same drip, drip, drip of news about England and their chances and it does become too much.

Edam, as an aside and I am really curious here why would the English view WWII as being like the French revoultion? 'Twas the Allies who were victorious over Germany.

Just a thought in relation to the OP rather than the discussion:
are we the only country? At least until recently Germany was a bit queasy about patriotism and I think Japan is in some ways (though not in others).

I always had a vague notion that the most patriotic countries were the ones who gained independance from another country at some point in their past.

gomez,
I agree totally with what you've said about the English media, Wayne Rooneys foot (yawn emoticon) and 1966 and all that.....
I would be much more inclined to support England if we weren't force fed their victory over and over again.
As it is I don't really care who wins.

Very good point about the allies Gomez. I remember a big row years ago in Germany, when a French friend of mine said "we won the war". Quick as a flash my English friend turned round and said "no you didn't - we did.

To which the German present said "neither of you did - the Russians did. They got to Berlin first. And none of you would have done it without the Russians, or the Americans". Made me realise that each nation tells its own story about WWII and I wish we could tell a more truthful and less xenophobic one.

I think the point about WWII and why it plays such a big part in our psyche as a nation is because the "story" we have absorbed is that it was a "just" war i.e. to fight the Nazis who were properly evil and - most importantly - we fought it "on our own" for a good while without the support of the US or Russia and we turnedan almost certain defeat into eventual victory through (The Story Goes) grit and determination and courage. Hence the focus on Dunkirk - Against All Odds, David and Goliath blablabla.
Like all good stories, this has an element of truth and a great deal of partiality. But in essence we DO have something to be proud of as a nation.
I am not at all sure the same can be said for the French Revolution, which is a pretty unglorious story all round imho.

but surely there are loads of stories in the media that go on for ages that don't interest people - I don't care about Big Brother/I'm a celebrity/reality tv crap and that dominates the papers/tv for bleeding months of the year but I just don't read it and don't bother listening to it when it's on the news.

My point (that I made very badly on another thread!) is that if Scotland were in the world cup then the Scottish sports media would have something to write about. As they aren't and there's precious little else happening at the moment, they get drawn into the whole world cup thing so you get lots of English stories.

Besides, I think you either like the World Cup or you don't (no matter what nationality you are) and if you don't like it, I guess now is a good time to have something like Sky Movies for the next month!

Aye but Harpsi the English didn't fight it on their own at anytime - Scots/Welsh/Irish were involved, very heavily so in some cases, from the beginning.

didn't suggest that the English fought anything on their own gomez. I am trying to answer the question about why it features so strongly in our national psyche, not making a point about Englishness.
the Irish weren't involved though, were they, officially? indivudual Irish soldiers may have fought in our army but iirc the Irish government referred to the conflict as the "emergency".

'Tis true Foxinsocks but you don't tend to get the leading article on the evening news being about BB but Wayne Rooney's foot appeared to be more important than deaths in Iraq, tension in Iran and thousands of deaths in Indonesia.

SenoraPostrophe.i said 'us' in capitals NOT the united states..dont jump to the wrong conclusion..

police and crime sttistics in this area displayed on coucil websites, local news paper court columns etc 'SHOW' the brief details of people commiting offenses..

i was not saying they should not be 'looked after' by us that is a different subject..i was asking why we seem to be the only people to 'NOT' have a right to say what we think without being shot down in flames..bit like you have just done in assuming 'i' was being predudice and 'assuming' i was talking out of my backside?

IMO 'your' post proves that their is so many people trying to tell us how to think, because it seems my post was purely a moan to you?
shame you can not be openminded to all.
i expect people to disagree, but dont verbally attack people who dont shre your veiw.
i am not a football hooligan, nor are several owners of charity shops/family pubs in this area, so why tar evryone with the same brush?

oh that's SO often the case about the news though isn't it? I find about 90% of news reporting trivial, salacious and/or irritating. tbh I am pleased to hear about anything so I don't have to listen to any more sleazy nonsense about how John prescott can't keep his trousers on

The Northern Irish were involved (obv)

Churchill had plans to invade Ireland and use it as a base if "necessary". So much for his respect for the sovreignty of nations.

Edam's original point referred to the English Harpsi, it appeared to follow on from there.

Eire wasn't directly involved no, but regiments from NI were, some of whom believe and refer to themseleves as Irish - but hey that's another conversation!

I find if I only listen to radio 4 and if I watch TV news only Newsnight or Channel 4 news, I can avoid nearly all news of Rooney's foot, big brother, heather mills etc. It really is a cocooned little world.

Ireland stayed offically neutral during ww2 (still recovering from years of civil war) but there were huge no. of Irish soldiers fighting in the british army.

yes, so did the Nazis Caligula (Operation Green and all that)
that really IS another thread...