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Original poster

DD has just joined Brownies and I have an issue with the promise...

239 replies

BonyM · 22/03/2006 22:10

Now, as far as I was aware, Brownies/Guides is not affiliated to any religion, however the part of the Brownie promise is "to love my god".

As humanists, dh and I do not have a god, and dd1 is aware of this (although the christian religion is more or less a "given" as far as her school is concerned). Tbh dh wasn't 100% comfortable with her joining Brownies in the first place as it was his perception that they were "religious", although I had assured them that they weren't. DD was very keen though as a lot of her friends go, and I believed that any religious input would be minimal.

We (particularly dh) are uncomfortable at the notion of her promising to "love my god". DD1 is almost 8 and doesn't really know whether to believe in a god or not (due I guess to the conflicting views she has - ours and the schools).

The question is whether to make an issue of it, risking her feeling alienated from her peers and/or embarrassed, or to just ignore it with the view that whatever she is told at this age, she will make her own mind up eventually anyway.

What would others do in this situation?

OP posts:
CountessDracula · 23/03/2006 09:45

BonyM for that matter it is discriminating against satanists too.

Honestly if you choose to be a humanist that is fine, what if your dd wants to be part of a religion though? If you go making issues about every mention of a god then she will be off knocking on the door of the Jehovahs trying to sign up as soon as she is old enough to get the bus on her own!

I sing God save the queen at for eg the fa cup final but tbh for all I care the queen could be struck down by a thunderbolt tomorrow, I dont' believe in god or have any time for the flipping queen, but it is traditional!

CountessDracula · 23/03/2006 09:46

Also dh's mother was a Brown Owl and she is the least religious person you could meet

Enid · 23/03/2006 09:47

yes

your god could be anything

in dd2s case it would be Barbie so there you go

arfissimo · 23/03/2006 09:49

Hunker - have you seen the woodcraft folk getup? I was an elfin. Nuff said. And my mum sewed my badges on higgledy-piggledy on my sleeve instead of on a sash.

I'm great at tracking in woods and identifying totem poles though.

Enid · 23/03/2006 09:51

I was a kelpie in brownies

tbh the elf thing was my fave thing about it

oliveoil · 23/03/2006 09:53

I wasn't allowed to go to Brownies either, no idea why as my parents were (are) major bible bashers.

But my dad thought tv was the work of the devil and banned that as well.

harpsichordcarrier · 23/03/2006 09:55

I was an imp
in fact I was a sixer

spidermama · 23/03/2006 10:23

We didn't have anything like that in Scotland where I was brought up. It was Brownies or nothing. I remember it was uncool to be in the Brownies so I sat around watching telly instead. (How cool was that?)

foxinsocks · 23/03/2006 10:28

I just wouldn't bother sending her - there are plenty other things for kids to do these days

My parents wouldn't let me do Brownies either but I was allowed to watch anything on telly and that seemed to please them much more!

tortoiseshell · 23/03/2006 10:36

I was an imp, then a gnome, was a seconder in the gnomes, then a sixer of the pixies. I always wanted to be an elf though. Sad

I do think it's weird the way everyone gets SO worked up about religion - either it's a big deal to you, in which case don't join, or it's insignificant, so don't worry about it. Given that most brownies are run at Churches, you might expect a bit of religion (and as far as I remember, the only religion there was that promise, and parade services twice a year - Thinking Day and Remembrance Day). I don't believe in Santa Claus (and nor does ds) but I don't pull him out of every christmas party where SC makes a visit, or ask him not to accept a present when every other child is - he just accepts that it's a tradition that someone dresses up as SC.

Original poster
BonyM · 23/03/2006 11:19

I can't believe this is still going!

Thank you harpsi, for your posts, you seem to be one of the few here who actually get what I'm trying to say!

For some reason I am being attributed with much stronger views than I actually have. I'm really a "live and let live" sort of person, and one of my best friends is very strongly involved in the local baptist church.

All I was trying to say was that, whilst I don't feel strongly enough to stop dd1 going to brownies if that is what she really wants to do, I am a little uncomfortable with her having to "promise" to love a god that I don't believe exists. I certainly would never do anything to alienate her from her peers as I know how important it is for kids to "fit in".

The reason for posting was to ascertain others' views - well, I certainly got them!Grin I didn't mean for it to turn into such a heated debate!

OP posts:
CountessDracula · 23/03/2006 11:35

LOL!

Only on mumsnet, BonyM!

motherinferior · 23/03/2006 11:36

Just found this thread.

OMG, am frogs's mum.

harpsichordcarrier · 23/03/2006 11:44

thanks bonym
seemed like a reasonable question to me
I don't know what I would do in your situation though
It would rather stick in my throat to tell my daughter - just say the words, they don't realy mean anything, that's not a good lesson or example to set.
but it seems a bit harsh to pull her out on an issue of your principles if she enjoys it.
I would leave it to her, see whether she can be comfortable with it.
tricky one, though, don't envy you.

BudaBabe · 23/03/2006 12:07

Buy her a teddy or something. Call it "god" - then no problem! She can promise to love it all she likes!

grumpyfrumpy · 23/03/2006 12:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
BonyM · 23/03/2006 13:04

Budababe - that must be the perfect solution Grin.

OP posts:
CountessDracula · 23/03/2006 13:07

oh thanks budababe, I have just sprayed water all over my pc thanks to that suggestion! PMSL! brilliant

donnie · 23/03/2006 13:22

well the local brownie group to me closed a couple of years ago because the parents never stopped whinging and moaning ( but never volunteering to help, natch)about everything from what time it started to the uniform, to whether or not the promise could be adapted to include devil worshipping one legged save the whalers etc bloody etc. So Brown Owl resigned because it's a voluntary post and why should she tolerate the grief? End of.
And the moral is.........?

oliveoil · 23/03/2006 13:23

lol at moondogs over reaction and hc response at 'bit early in the morning for hyperbole'.

CountessDracula · 23/03/2006 13:24

errr

stop whingeing and let it be?

Gumdrop · 23/03/2006 13:24

OK, I have to own up here. I'm a Guardian reading lefty AND I'm a Guide Guider. I'm a very humanistic Quaker attender, so all I did was to interpret the promise when I remade it as follows:

I promise that I will do my best
To love my god, [to love that good part of every one regardless of their faith / lack of / colour / creed]
To serve the queen [by not actively plotting revolution against the monarchy] and my country [the land and all its inhabitants regardless of etc etc]
and to keep the Guide Law [which basically boils down to treat people as you wish to be treated].

All very tricksy thinking I grant you, but I thought I was doing more good by being a Guider and making opportunities available to other girls / young women, than getting hung up on exactly what I had to say Smile.

harpsichordcarrier · 23/03/2006 13:58

nice work Gumdrop Smile
btw since when did allowing other faiths to join become "political correctness"?? it's called religious tolerance and it's a precious thing not to be scoffed at
as all you "oh it's the status quo, stop moaning, it's only a bit of harmless god talk" brigade will find out come the caliphate Grin

moondog · 23/03/2006 14:02

I've warned you all about the Caliphate before.....

paolosgirl · 23/03/2006 14:02

I'm having a very hard time right now trying to persuade my DD (6) that we are not all descended from Adam and Eve! I'm a bit Shock that she's being taught this over Darwin's theory, but you know what - she believes it, and she believes in God, and who am I to try and change her beliefs. She is a person in her own right, and if she wants to beleive in God, then good for her.