DD has just joined Brownies and I have an issue with the promise...

[BonyM]

Now, as far as I was aware, Brownies/Guides is not affiliated to any religion, however the part of the Brownie promise is "to love my god".

As humanists, dh and I do not have a god, and dd1 is aware of this (although the christian religion is more or less a "given" as far as her school is concerned). Tbh dh wasn't 100% comfortable with her joining Brownies in the first place as it was his perception that they were "religious", although I had assured them that they weren't. DD was very keen though as a lot of her friends go, and I believed that any religious input would be minimal.

We (particularly dh) are uncomfortable at the notion of her promising to "love my god". DD1 is almost 8 and doesn't really know whether to believe in a god or not (due I guess to the conflicting views she has - ours and the schools).

The question is whether to make an issue of it, risking her feeling alienated from her peers and/or embarrassed, or to just ignore it with the view that whatever she is told at this age, she will make her own mind up eventually anyway.

What would others do in this situation?

Tricky and I am know I am coming into this right towards the end - but surely if you worry about her being forced into religious belief (or equally no religious belief) then the last thing you should do is withdraw her from something she wants to do on the basis of you own personal belief. I am a strong believer in allowing kids to form their own opinions on these issues. My father is a vicar I was bought up in a religious home but never forced in any way - i would not describe myself as overtlty religious but i am spiritual and I discover that ability to be comfortable in my own skin because my parents allowed me to have a wide variety of religious and social experience. Besides which I have found the ability to make a washing up stand out of three sticks and some string invaluable! Oh and I always have a safety pin! I loved it!

gosh my typings great can you tell I had a G & T at lunch!

long thread & at work, so a quick reply...

I really wanted to join the Brownies when I bought the book from a jumble sale. I wasn't allowed because you had to pledge allegance to the Queen.

I think I really missed out (ahh) because a) good uniform
b) helping old ladies cross the road
c) I really do think it helps to foster a sense of pride & belonging. All those little projects/camp outs etc.

I still wouldn't want my DD to pledge to the Queen, however, I think there are so many postitives to this, I would overlook - any good ?!

Thanks everyone - I really have no intention of withdrawing her if she enjoys it, and I fully understand that trying to ram anything down anyone's throat can make them take the opposite view (hence dh being very anti-religion because he had a catholic upbringing and went to a catholic school).

I think all I was really wondering was whether I should mention to Brown Owl (or Brown Cow as dh calls her - no offence meant!) that we do not have a god and therefore didn't feel that that part of the promise was relevant. In all probability I wouldn't say anything, it was just something I was musing over, and look what a debate it's started! .

Hello BonyM,

If I were you, I wouldn't mention it to the Brown Owl, as Leaders are supposed not to accept anyone who won't/can't make the promise. That is the procedure, and I vaguely remember a couple of "turned away from the Brownies" sad face type articles in the press. Your leader may be happy to bend the rules, but Guiding can be a nightmare for procedures! I'd just follow the good advice offered by those who've suggested ways of explaining it to her.

To be honest, a seven year old is more likely to be worrying about remembering the words than they are to be thinking about any deep implications that they bring! For me it just meant that I had some lovely badges on my uniform at last....

I was just chuckling at the thought of having issues with the Brownie promise...but I must say, I wouldnt be keen on my children pledging allegiance to the Queen either.

Hi.
My mum's a brown owl and has been for 20 years. When she took on her current pack about 15 years ago, it was known as the 'Catholic' pack- which Mum then said was rubbish and Brownies was open to any girl who wanted a bit of fun. She places the emphasis on doing good things (like thinking days etc) but really just gives her girls a fabulous time playing games and learning about other countries and cultures. They do have to take part in a Remembrance Day parade and church service but tells the girls that it is more about respect than religion. I think those sorts of values are great and although I am not religious I wouldn't hesitate in letting my dd join (my mum has her signed up already and she's only 7 months old!!)
Good luck whatever you decide.

My mum was my Brown Owl and I used to get paid 50p to go to church parade. I even went on to join the guides for a while and made a similar promise despite being a firm atheist by the age of 11.

BonyM thios is so going to sound aggressive and really isn't meant as such - but really ts you don't have a God - have you asked her??

Sorry ark, don't understand the question?

I think ark means maybe your dd has her own god

Whebn this time comes, it will be part of our education for our kids about the practicalities of living in a society with superstitous people in positions of power over you.

Kids learn to lie all by themselves, is a recognised development state. My job as a parent is to help them understand when it's appropriate, or even ethically necessary to lie.

That being said, I'm pretty sure Baden Powell was not a great a fan of teaching kids to lie.

DD1 and I have had lots of discussions about religion - I actually find religion an interesting subject and we have often talked about the different religions, and what different people believe in. I have told her why we don't believe in a god, and also why some people do believe in one.

Sometimes she will say that she does believe in god, sometimes that she doesn't. She is a very bright and intelligent child but even so, I don't really think that at almost 8 she has yet got sufficient knowledge or powers of reasoning to decide what she does or does not believe in (for more than a day at a time anyway!). At that age, most children are very suggestable and will believe what any authority figure (teacher, parent, etc.) tells them. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has had their child tell them something factually incorrect that they have been told by a teacher, and then had a real struggle trying to correct them (of course, a teacher is never wrong! ).

I know that regardless of what she is told, she will make up her own mind when she is old enough to, and this is how it should be.

I think I was maybe taking the whole thing more seriously than I usually would because of dh's very strong anti-religion stance.

My God can mean anything you want it to. Brownies and giudes were origannly chrisdtian groups but now recognise other religions. Don't make a big deal out of it .