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Original poster

DD has just joined Brownies and I have an issue with the promise...

239 replies

BonyM · 22/03/2006 22:10

Now, as far as I was aware, Brownies/Guides is not affiliated to any religion, however the part of the Brownie promise is "to love my god".

As humanists, dh and I do not have a god, and dd1 is aware of this (although the christian religion is more or less a "given" as far as her school is concerned). Tbh dh wasn't 100% comfortable with her joining Brownies in the first place as it was his perception that they were "religious", although I had assured them that they weren't. DD was very keen though as a lot of her friends go, and I believed that any religious input would be minimal.

We (particularly dh) are uncomfortable at the notion of her promising to "love my god". DD1 is almost 8 and doesn't really know whether to believe in a god or not (due I guess to the conflicting views she has - ours and the schools).

The question is whether to make an issue of it, risking her feeling alienated from her peers and/or embarrassed, or to just ignore it with the view that whatever she is told at this age, she will make her own mind up eventually anyway.

What would others do in this situation?

OP posts:
Hulababy · 22/03/2006 22:12

I always thought that Brownies WAS a christian group. I can't imagine they would change the promise just for one child, but you never know.

misdee · 22/03/2006 22:13

dont make an issue of it IMO.

Original poster
BonyM · 22/03/2006 22:14

They're not though - the promise has recently been changed from "to love god" to "to love my god" in order to encourage girls from different religions to join. That's fine, but what about those with no religion?

OP posts:
Original poster
BonyM · 22/03/2006 22:14

misdee, that's my inclination, but it still makes me feel uncomfortable.

OP posts:
unicorn · 22/03/2006 22:15

can't 'my god' mean, well, whatever you want it to tho.. eg your god could be money.. beauty, the natural world etc etc....
So, open to interpretation the humanist way?

Hattie05 · 22/03/2006 22:16

I have the same concerns as you about brownies and guides. Dd won't be going unless she asks to go (only 3 at mo)

I did meet one of the central leaders of brownies (based in their head offices in london) at a function and i put the question to her about brownies - relation to religion.

And she said that in the past yes they have been quite a 'christian' driven groups. But with equality being such a big issue nowadays, they have tried to change their ways and many Brownie clubs will adapt, and attract people from other religions.
She did say it is down to the groups leader and if its a concern of yours then you should visit and ask these question to ensure you're happy with they way it is run before starting your child.

I think the fact that you have started your child there already, would be a bit harsh to pull her out. Were you aware of this promise before she started? Have you spoken to the leader?

Why do yours and your childs schools give conflicting views? Schools are not supposed to impose any view upon children, only teach each faith equally, unless they are religious schools obviously.

LadySherlockofLGJ · 22/03/2006 22:16

If you don't believe in the what they consider the basic ethos, take her out, simple.

lucy5 · 22/03/2006 22:17

I think it is C of E, we used to go to a church service once a year and we were catholics. Personally, i would let your dd go and see if she likes it. if I remember rightly you are not sworn in on the first night. The promise used to be, I promise to do my best, serve my queen and do my duty to God or something like that. So they have obviously tried to make it more PC.

Hulababy · 22/03/2006 22:18

Girl guides and brownies is open to all girls regardless of religion, etc. but all are expected to say the promise. My God is a good substituate as it encompasses all forms of religion. Not sure about non-religion though.

I personally wouldn't make an issue out of it.

starlover · 22/03/2006 22:21

don't make an issue out of it... like you say she will come across references to religion all over the place, and it's not something that should be avoided imo

she isn't promising to love god...just love HER god, which in this case means no god.

frogs · 22/03/2006 22:22

As I see it, you have three options:

  1. Let your dd get on with it sort out the faith issue for herself;
  2. Forget the Brownies and join the Woodcraft Folk;
  3. React like my mum did when I wanted to join the Brownies: 'Over my dead body will any child of mine join a reactionary protofascist paramilitary organisation!!'
  1. is the sensible option imo. 2 is for people who feel really strongly about it, and don't mind making their child the odd one out in order to fit in with their own beliefs. 3. Barking, but she can dine out on the story for years to come. Grin

PS A lot of girls join the Brownies all guns blazing, and get bored of it six months later. I'd reserve the heavy artillery for when she wants to get her nose pierced or join the Moonies. Just don't invest too heavily in brownie uniform.

alliebaba · 22/03/2006 22:23

i went to brownies and i hate religion.. their brain washing didn't get me Grin

getbakainyourjimjams · 22/03/2006 22:24

oh frogs you make me laugh. Did your mum really say that PMSL :o I take it she was a bit Guardianista when you were growing up.

I'd go for option 1. Tell your dd she can always cross the fingers of her non promise hand behind her back.

WideWebWitch · 22/03/2006 22:25

pmsl at frogs! I think I'd go with her suggestion 1: let her get on with it and assume she'll get bored. Woodcraft folk,

brimfull · 22/03/2006 22:26

Prayer and grace before a meal were a part of brownie camp when dd was involved.Also attending church on thinking day(guiding thing?) was encouraged.It's not rammed down their throat and easily overlooked imo.

brimfull · 22/03/2006 22:28

I was a Rainbow leader years ago and I'm not religious.Talked the talk thoughSmile

ScummyMummy · 22/03/2006 22:29

lol frogs. Your mum sounds a bit like mine.:)

snafu · 22/03/2006 22:29

Rofl frogs!

I wouldn't make a big deal of it, really. I remember very few religious references when I went to Brownies 20+ years ago, so I can only imagine it's even less of an issue now. Certainly didn't have any lasting impact on me, in any case (I did find 'em deeply dull, though Grin)

frogs · 22/03/2006 22:32

Guardianista? Communista more like. She grew up in East Germany and can be somewhat, er, oversensitive in matters political. Prone to odd little outbursts, shall we say. But never dull. Grin

Original poster
BonyM · 22/03/2006 22:38

frogs - I love your posts Grin.

You've all convinced me that it's the right thing to not make a big deal out of it. I guess I just find the assumption that everyone has some religion a bit annoying.

OP posts:
Hattie05 · 22/03/2006 22:39

BonyM, why is there conflict between your views and your child's schools?

SleepyJess · 22/03/2006 22:40

Oh God. Literally. What can people have against Brownies??! You DD will love it! And the Promise will not ram religion irretrievably down her throat..

Is it 'duty to God' or 'serve the Queen' that you don't like? They are really just about being true to yourself.. and doing the 'right' thing by others.. It's a very old promise in old fashioned language.

julienetmum · 22/03/2006 22:41

The promise has changed since my day then.

It used to be I promise that I will do my best to do my duty to God. To serve the Queen and help other people and keep the Brownie (Guide) Law(s)

SleepyJess · 22/03/2006 22:43

What is it now then Julie? I thought it was still that! DD is enroled in a few weeks...

ScummyMummy · 22/03/2006 22:44

The main thing about Brownies is that it is very very boring unless you have a good owl person in charge. Our owl was about 18 and cried all the time which was dire.