Are you a feminist?

[spacedonkey]

I was born in 1968, so I'm one generation on from the 1960s/1970s women's rights movement generation. Growing up I was more focused on hating Thatch than women's issues - it seemed the battle for equality had been won. But it hasn't. And increasingly I find myself reaching for the dungarees, so annoyed do I get about the continuing inequalities women experience (still paid less than men, getting sacked for being pregnant, still doing most of the unpaid work in the home, not to mention the tyranny of "beauty" etc).

Where is feminism these days?

True SD, in part.

SOme of it is related to the flexible working arrangements that women want which men don't. Telling or not!

have been thinking and I agree with custard and some others on this thread that economic disadvantage is the bigger issue now
I have been disadvantaged far far more by my background/class/economic position than I have been by my gender
I think that is generally the case

I think men are starting to feel dissatisfied with inflexible working arrangements too (although this is probably a middle class thing too) - perhaps if men start demanding flexibility so that they don't have to sell their souls, change will start to happen?

perhaps economic disadvantage is always a bigger issue, but that doesn't mean that gender inequalities can be dismissed. The recent debate about rape convictions and public attitudes towards victims of rape is very telling (and shocking).

But is it that women want flexible working and men don't or is it that women need flexible working because they mostly end up`doing the bulk of the childcare? I do think it's a lot easier to be truly equal before children come along - it seems to me that plenty of fairly equal relationships revert to some kind of 50's housewife model when children come along.

Remembered a little anecdote on this topic this morning. In my last year of primary we did a project on Australia and had to paint Aborigines. Everyone else did a man, I did a woman (think she had a baby in her arms). My teacher said 'Oh, we've got a feminist here'! I didn't understand but never forgot the word she used.

I haven't read this thread (sorry, about the first time) but I'm a woman, working in a man's world and I deal with sexism on a daily basis. At the end of the day, life is unjust, men can be pigs and women can be bitches. I have to jusfify my ability all of the time because I am a 5'9 blonde size 8 engineer.

It's their problem, not mine. I deal with it, don't wear dungarees and be militant and earn a salary considerably in excess of a lot of the men who try to belittle me. I'm just grateful that society has evolved enough to let me be where I am.

Oh, and I'm solely responsible for the childcare and dealing with our house(s) when working overseas.

No wonder I have a strange attraction to wine

Soapbox, you are very nearly saying that men are paid more because they work harder, which just ain't true. They aren't paid more for working longer hours. They are paid more for the same job. Yes, there is a pay gap when children come along and many women want flexible working, but it exists for women across the board, professionals and manual workers, full-time and part-time (although it gets even worse for part-timers). It's not confined to City firms.

Soapbox, you are very nearly saying that men are paid more because they work harder, which just ain't true. They aren't paid more for working longer hours. They are paid more for the same job. Yes, there is a pay gap when children come along and many women want flexible working, but it exists for women across the board, professionals and manual workers, full-time and part-time (although it gets even worse for part-timers). It's not confined to City firms.

Interesting discussion on Woman's Hour now about the way porn is becoming mainstream and objectifying all women - someone whose name I didn't catch has written a book called Female Chauvinist Pigs taking up this theme.

here's the book Edam, loos interesting

cheers www!

Yes, was an interesting discussion on Radio 4. But, I had to listen to it through a red mist of rage brought on by the mere mention of a certain group. I may have to parp myself in respect of the Pussy Cat Girls.........

I agree that the movement of porn to the mainstream is a disaster for women and girls. I bitterly resent it and think it is dangerous.

It is hard to discuss equality because I do think men and women differ and often want very different things. To me it isn't a disaster that most senior policemen and army personnel are male, because I think men are much more likely to want to take these kind of roles. The problem is when we value a role PURELY because men predominate in that field - and reward it disporportionately because of that. Are policemen really so much more important than, say, nurses? Because they payscales and perks would suggest they are.

I was generalising a bit, I admit Edam. Part of the problem in discussing this is that it is hard not to revert to your own experiences.

IME - once women have children in my profession then there is a marked difference between the hours worked by men and women. Probably as much as 15-20 hours a week.

It is hard not to recognise this additional work when pay awards are made I suppose. Whether it is all useful work is another matter though!

Prior to having children then to be fair, I would have to say that there was little inequality in terms of pay and conditions between males and females in my profession - at least as far as I ever witnessed.

After having children was a whole different ball game IME!

I try to take a very even view of sexism as it relates to me - I have a lot of tolerace and have needed it over the years, working at a senrior level in a male dominated profession.

However, on one occasion when I felt lines had been well and truely crossed then I sued and won for sexual discrimination. Sadly, though the law is a very blunt tool in this area and for many women the cost of a legal battle would be prohibitively expensive.

I think what we must do is give our children the right role models and the right values that make it clear that sexism is not to be tolerated, in any sphere of life. That includes not buying the line that boys are useless, helpless can't do the domestic stuff as well as women. Sure they can't! When the chips are down they are as capable of it as women, if only we'd all stop giving them the excuses to let them off the hook!

I think equality at work needs a radical rethink of the macho set ups that were devised by men for men. If we rewarded achievement not presenteeism (and possibly rethought what achievement actually is) this would be a huge step forward.
Also realising that flexible working for EVERYONE can make workforces more motivated and stable would IMO improve things dramatically too.

Alha - there is flexible working opportunities for everyone where I work.

None of the men would be seen dead taking it up!

How do you deal with that - why do men not have to deal with family life too?

I'm at a loss to know what would make a difference!

In my profession where you bill by the hour, then more hours equates to more sales revenue - which does make it bl**dy hard to argue on the productivity side! I moved into a niche area, non fee earning role precisely because I could see where this issue would lead to if I were in a fee earning role!

Now I wish F4J would start campaigning for that Aloha

Yes, I'm struck by the number of blokes not exactly surging forward to take up flexible working too. Admittedly I have just about bullied my partner into doing one day early - starting and finishing early - so he can pick up Inferiorette2; but the fact is that, as WWW says, women find themselves having to take up flexible working, in a way blokes don't. Odd, that.

I think this is interesting on the subject

haven't read all this thread, but I think Soapbox's first post sums it up for me.

Also, as I get older I do see that certain bilogical divisions of labour make sense, and my perspective has shifted from the immediate; white English middleclass to a more global one where women's expectations and wants withith patriarchial societies can be repsected without the urge to cast the blinkers from their eyes IYSWIM.

SpaceDonkey if you really want to participate in contemporary feminist debate and action you should get yourself to the Fawcett Society.

the choice re flexi working is more of an option for those who can afford it rather than a lifestyle choice.

feminism by its very existence is divisive and imo completely misses the point of equality. surely the fight should be for equality full stop. for all.

I am 100% a feminist and believe in equality for all. You could also call me an egalitarianist. "I will be a post feminist in post patriarchy."