Are you a feminist?

[spacedonkey]

I was born in 1968, so I'm one generation on from the 1960s/1970s women's rights movement generation. Growing up I was more focused on hating Thatch than women's issues - it seemed the battle for equality had been won. But it hasn't. And increasingly I find myself reaching for the dungarees, so annoyed do I get about the continuing inequalities women experience (still paid less than men, getting sacked for being pregnant, still doing most of the unpaid work in the home, not to mention the tyranny of "beauty" etc).

Where is feminism these days?

perhaps they do aloha, but that's not biologically determined behaviour!

Homemama - why did you leave your profession, just out of interest?

What made you take the choice you did?

Hmm, I don't think we know enough to say that conclusively. I certainly don't think men and women are the same.

SD - I think it is biologically determined - why would it not be?

I don't think they're the same either. I'm saying that masculine/feminine roles are in large part socially constructed.

Well the scientist in me usually thinks that things have evolved the way they have for a reason

I think society has evolved to embrace women's desires to nurture their young, not the other way around!

Well as a teacher, I can honestly say that working part time affords you no less benefits or promotional prospects that working full time. I kept my promotion (responsibility points/pay) when I went p/t.

Soapbox, I wouldn't have married him without beating him into submission first!

I didn't need to go back financially. I really wasn't sure what to do. However, DH encouraged me back saying that I mustn't just become his wife and DS's mum. Perhaps feminism is partly about educating men toward this viewpoint.

last post before bed.
Think the desire for a good provider is somewhat biologically determined. Men look for women with symetrical features (a sign of good health), plumper lips (sign of youthfulness, therefore fecundity), bigger breasts and wider hips. Whether we like this or not, this has been fairly well proven by anthropologists across a range of different societies.
Women tend to look for physical features such as height & strength as this would indicate a strong protector and good hunter.
So some of it is not just societal conditioning it is our own biology trying to force us to reproduce well!!!!!

deterministic biological theories of gender difference are far from being proven

there was a huge hoo hah over a major paper published a few months ago claiming to prove that women are less intelligent than men

you see that is a really unconvincing point i think
why is it liberating to be defined by our work?
I am not just someone's wife/mother because I don't work outside the home
my individuality is not in issue and will never be so whether I go back to work or not

Soapbox, I left because I wanted to spend time with DS. I found the time a big sacrifice but was prepared for that. I'm lucky in that my career is easy to pick up. DH would be willing to SAH too but as he earns 3x as much as me even when I'm f/t, it wasn't an option.
Does that negate my argument?

Harpsi - I don't think you'd find many men posting that line

I agree with you HC - that issue becomes important because this society measures our status in large part according to financial and occupational success. Part of the feminisation of society would surely be to redefine such definitions of status and success?

I agree HC. He was worried that I'd feel that way. He didn't view me that way.

I think it is a huge mistake to think that work = freedom/liberation/equality
I will say again - just because that is what man have and what men do, it does not mean it is desirable imho
and arbeit does not necessarily macht frei
some work can be wonderful and fulfilling
but lots of it is dull and grinding and tiring and not compatible with family life

Well...

I think feminism was about allowing women to make a choice as to how they spend thier lives - to work, have children, have a career etc etc. For individual women to make a choice based on what they judged important to them. If that is woth so be it, if it is being a SAHM so be it, or some combination of the two

Choice being the key word.

For all we fanny around talking about it though, that choice is still not there for many women. Some have to woth when they'd rather be at home. Some through financial circumstances, or lack of spousal support, have to stay at home when they would rather woth.

That is very sad in this day and age, imo!

But surely feminism is the cause for those women that choose to be SAHMs every bit as much as it is for those that choose to go out and earn an equal pay for an equal day's work?

x posts

so - in the light of all this discussion - it's clear to me at least that there is much more work to do! It is not enough to change the law in order to allow women to be like men. There still has to be a huge sea change in cultural values and attitudes.

Hmmmm, the more I think this over the more I think that without a complete overhaul of the infrastructure of our society, we are not going to acheive equality.
Someone suggested that it was all about women having a choice - but surely it is about men having the choice too. At the moment, because of the way our work patterns are set it is rare for men to be the SAHP or even work part-time. They are not encouraged by society to be more involved with their children or families.

Agree about the older end of the market as well as carers of young children etc.

In all the discussions about pensions and working till we're seventy, no-one ever seems to consider the sheer physical effort of doing a 40 hour week when you're 68 and much frailer than you were at 40. And has anyone actually tried doing a full week's worth while having a really bad menopause? I can't say I fancy it.

Sorry, bit of a tangent there...

I am a feminist. My definition of feminism is simply believeing in equality of opportunity.
My degree is in Women's Studies, I spent 2 years studying at Lancaster University and 1 year on exchange at Spelman College in Atlanta, Georgia. Spelman is an historically black all women's college and I was astounded at how many of the women I studied with could not / would not identify themselves as feminist. They'd often say things like "I believe in equal rights but I'm not a feminist". I think its a shame that the word has such negative connotations for so many women.
In my first year at Lancaster I stood for election to the Students Union as Mature Students Officer, I was appaulled when the Labour Students organisation on campus held a meeting to decide whether they would back me as some of them felt I was "not feminist enough" because I had "worn a low cut top at hustings". They obviously preferred their feminists in denim dungarees! Is it any wonder feminism gets a bad name??

Lis x