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Original poster

Are you a feminist?

350 replies

spacedonkey · 29/12/2005 11:52

I was born in 1968, so I'm one generation on from the 1960s/1970s women's rights movement generation. Growing up I was more focused on hating Thatch than women's issues - it seemed the battle for equality had been won. But it hasn't. And increasingly I find myself reaching for the dungarees, so annoyed do I get about the continuing inequalities women experience (still paid less than men, getting sacked for being pregnant, still doing most of the unpaid work in the home, not to mention the tyranny of "beauty" etc).

Where is feminism these days?

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Original poster
spacedonkey · 29/12/2005 12:54

Another point: anyone notice how there's a panic about girls outperforming boys at school? No-one panicked when it was the other way around ...

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Mytwopenceworth · 29/12/2005 12:57

I believe in equal rights for everyone, not specifically womens' rights, so where there are inequalities between genders, I want corrective action. I'm not sure that is feminism. Is it?

merrySOAPBOXingday · 29/12/2005 12:57

SD - that is my point though. Why is one supremacy better than another? Two wrongs don't make a right!

I think it is worrying that there are differences in achievement between boys and girls. I would like to believe that it is possible to find the middle ground which gives equality of opportunity and potential and choice, to both sexes equally!

Mytwopenceworth · 29/12/2005 12:58

eg angry that in a lot of jobs women are aid less than men doing the same role.

Equally angry that men are excluded from traditional 'womens' jobs - eg infant school teachers by sexist attitudes.

Original poster
spacedonkey · 29/12/2005 12:59

I don't think anyone would argue with that tuppenceworth, and perhaps it is time for a new label. Either that or a reclamation of the term "feminist", similar to the way gay people reclaimed the word "queer".

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Blandmum · 29/12/2005 13:01

Tuppencewoth, I am a science teacher!

Let me know if I can ever be of any help, btw!

(It is a fab job, the best I have ever had....I love it to bits, bet you will too!)

Misletoo, he used to ask me why a girl was bothering to do science, told me repeatedly that I would never pass my A levels, even after I took and passed the enterence exam for Oxford!

My best mate asked if she could do wood work, she was told, 'You can, but you will get laughed out of the first lesson you go to' and that is a direct quote (I remember it well) made by the Headmaster in front of the whole year!

Original poster
spacedonkey · 29/12/2005 13:01

soapbox - pointing out the panic about girls outperforming boys in no way implies that I think it's a good thing that one sex outperforms the other. I am pointing out the discrepancy in the social reaction to it, that's all.

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merrySOAPBOXingday · 29/12/2005 13:05

SD - but isn't any social reaction to lack of equality a good thing?

FWIW - I really do think that there would be a huge fuss made these days if boys were outperforming girls on a regular basis.

I do think that in the chattering classes, which is where the social reaction to education matters, usually starts from, would be horrified!

Original poster
spacedonkey · 29/12/2005 13:07

I'm not saying that reacting to inequality is a bad thing! And perhaps you are right in that if boys were outperforming girls there would be an equally strong reaction.

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Blandmum · 29/12/2005 13:07

I think that there would be a worry if boys outperformed girls now, but it was of no concern when I was in school in the 60s and 70s. It was taken as the natural order, if you like.

For a girl to be bright, as far as my mother was concerned was almost a waste, since 'all' I would do was end up having children (her feelings that having kids was not praiseworthy IYSWIM) I don't think that she ever came to terms with the fact that I was more academic than my brother, she saw it as a waste.

uwila · 29/12/2005 13:10

Men of childbearing age and women of childbearing age aren't going to be treated equally in the work place until men's paternity leave is paid at the same rate as women's maternity leave. Why would a dad stay home for no pay when his wife can stay home for 90% pay. Who can afford that? Men should get the same 6 weeks of 90% of their pay. THEN maybe they will start taking it. And when they start taking it women may enter a level playing field in the office. As it is now, women are the ones who stay home. It is expected of them -- but not of the men.

Original poster
spacedonkey · 29/12/2005 13:13

An excellent point uwila. That makes me think that it is time for a change of label to provide something both men and women can identify with.

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Original poster
spacedonkey · 29/12/2005 13:23

However I do find it sad and confusing that if I, as a woman, voice my frustration and unhappiness with the ways in which women are discriminated against, I am assumed to be a man hater or someone who wishes women to be superior to men. Would people say the same to a black person voicing concern about racism, or a gay person voicing concern about homophobia? Would they be attacked for wanting to assert superiority over others on the basis of their colour or sexuality?

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merrySOAPBOXingday · 29/12/2005 13:28

SD - I think that if there were groups advocating loudly for black supremacy or gay supremacy that yes, they would be attacked and quite rightly so IMO.

In no way was I getting at you in my posts - just saying why I felt the use of the word feminist had very emotive connotations with many people. Certainly not directed at you!

Original poster
spacedonkey · 29/12/2005 13:30

but soapbox, I'm not talking about black or gay groups advocating supremacy - I'm talking about people voicing concern about discrimination!

You seem to imply that by doing that I am automatically stating a claim to superiority when I am not at all. And neither are the average black or gay person who are simply objecting to discrimination.

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merrySOAPBOXingday · 29/12/2005 13:31

And I think picking up on MB's post - it is still unforgivable that there were so many unjustices perpertrated against women in education, not very long ago (and possibly still now) however, the fact that we have made progress in that area is something to be proud of.

There is still much much more to do though, but there are other societial issues that will dictate the pace of those changes.

uwila · 29/12/2005 13:34

i think actually that black (or green or purple or whatever) people voicing their opinions for equality do get labelled as seeking superiority. It isn't just feminists -- if we are still calling them that.

Original poster
spacedonkey · 29/12/2005 13:36

So then anyone who is voicing an objection to the status quo may be labelled as seeking superiority. That doesn't make it true.

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merrySOAPBOXingday · 29/12/2005 13:36

Sorry - SD I misread your last post, I read it as if they were advocating supremacy would they be attacked for it!

To answer your question then, no I don't think you would be, but the fact is that a lot of the early feminist movement was preoccupied with belittling men and maleness. They promolgated the idea that men were useless, superflous to society. Only any good as sperm and then could be tossed out and left by the way side. Early feminism was radical, as I said, perhaps it had to be, to be noticed to grab attention.

However, it did lead to feminists being dismissed as male hating nutters. That doesn't help the cause of promoting equality does it? That is my point and as such, why I think the term feminist has quite negative attributes attached to it!

FairyMum · 29/12/2005 13:36

Yes, I am a feminist because I think we have a lot to thank the feminist movement for. I think the issues with discrimination at work, during pregnancy etc is more about family issues. I very much agree with Uwila's points and I wish more men could stand up and demand more rights as a parent. I don't see them dressing up in their spidermen outfits climbing Buckingham Palace with banners on flexible working hours.....

Original poster
spacedonkey · 29/12/2005 13:38

Yes, there were some feminists who promoted man-hating views. But I don't think they constituted the majority of feminists. I think the negative connotations were more a result of hysterical media stereotyping.

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FairyMum · 29/12/2005 13:39

And I don't think the old feminist movement were all male hating and extremist. I think some were and of course it's the nut cases who grab the headlines. I think some of these did hijack the cause a little bit and especially towards the end of the 70s. HOwever, I also think this is how there were portrayed and dismissed.

Original poster
spacedonkey · 29/12/2005 13:39

well put fairymum

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Blandmum · 29/12/2005 13:41

While I do remember some separatists, the Society for cutting up men (SCUM) is one that springs to mind, most feminists that I think of in the 70s were not anti men, they were anti men denying women's equal rights.

uwila · 29/12/2005 13:43

I think soapbox is just saying the a few extremists have left a negative connotation with the word "feminism". I think still today when you say you are a feminist some people tend to think that you are for female supremacy...

The true meaning of feminism one of equality I think we are all for. It is only the title being debated.